Building upon a lie

[slaniav]

Christian commentary on Total Onslaught: Changing the Word by Walter Veith- a must see- along with his other sermons/lectures... Battle of the Bibles, Strange Fire, Signs and Wonders, (historical proof of the Bible) A Spade Unearths the Truth, 1844 and the Final Onslaught, and many more.


Bible Translations:
[--Quote from: Wally on December 29, 2007,01:29:52 PM ---Have you seen "The Battle of the Bibles," and "Changing the Word?" Both are part of Dr. Walter Veith's Total Onslaught series. The give a very interesting perspective regarding the various translations of the Bible.
--- End quote ----

Quote from: Wally on December 29, 2007, 01:29:52 PM ---Most of them use the KJV now, not because I talked them into it, but because they have found it to be more reliable.
- End quote --- --- Quote from: Dora on December 27, 2007, 08:22:47 PM
--We just watched a video of Veith's "Changing the Word," and though I had heard and read some things about the changes, I was truly shocked when I watched his presentation. He had three people come up and compare texts from three versions. They read from the KJV first, then from the other two versions, the RSV and the NIV, the last two people would say, "That verse is just not here." The only way one could grasp it all (or even most of it) would be to pause the DVD and write it all down.

Yes, it was amazing!!

--- End quote -
Yes, it is, Dora...

Romans8:1KJV: There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

NKJV: There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

NEB: The conclusion of the matter is this: there is no condemnation for those who are united with Christ Jesus.

NIV: Therefore, there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

RSV: There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

"it does show how many who use other versions on this particular text could be taught "just believe on Jesus and be saved" as well as "saved in their sins" teaching. These are rampant among most churches..."

The Veith DVD (thank you, Dora) on this subject is incredibly enlightening.

He points out the systematic downplaying of Jesus' divinity in most all modern translations; the atonement; Jesus' High Priesthood and many other things relative to salvation - but primarily taking Jesus out of the spotlight of being Savior, Redeemer, in the flesh, High Priest and Advocate, Judge.

James5:16 – changes “faults to one another” to “sins to one another” Makes man a confessor to man

RSV
Luke9:55, 56 – left off majority of verses – Jesus not to destroy but to save·

Rev22:14 – “wash their robes” vs. “do His commandments”

Hebrews7:21 – “after the order of Melchisedec” is missing. Denying Jesus’ higher priesthood

John5:39 – No longer “Search the Scriptures” – a command, yet a statement saying “you search the scriptures …

Mimi:
Richard, look at the post on Romans8:1. Easy to see if someone is using a modern version, the 2nd half of the text just does not exist.]…

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See sermons/lectures: 1844 and the Final Onslaught by Walter Veith and Why the Sabbath by Doug Batchelor
For an urgent call to atonement see David Gates Total Possession and David Gates in Guam

 

[Chester]

And my sins were only forgiven after I put my faith in the finished work of Christ[/QUOTE)
That's not what the word teaches us chester " For God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself, without imputing their trespasses (sins) unto them)".

All your sins as well as that of humanity were imputed to Christ at the cross. The same way His death 2000 yrs ago included those that were to come 2000 yrs later(that is, you and me) so are our sins.

"Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins", Before you were born and get to commit any sin, that sin has been taken care of! other wise Christ will go to the cross every second to cleans us from every sin commuted. This is What FreeNchrist has been saying all alone.

Nope!

 

[Chester]

a few months ago, isit said he went for periods of time without willful sinning. I cited James- to him to knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin, in response to this. we had a few back-and- fourths , and I said he was teaching sinless perfectionism. he said he was not. I said o.k., then say " I am not sinless and perfect" he has refused to do so. this is where I am coming from.

Thanks for the context of your statement. Obviously I don't have the whole context and I am not taking the time to try to look up the earlier debate.

But if he says he was not teaching sinless perfection and you still think he was -- easy -- just let it at that!

You can say - "I think you are teaching sinless perfection because of . . . etc." But I still do not think it is a good procedure to push people to make a statement using your own words. Let them state things the way they want to. And then don't say they believe something that they say they don't believe.

My opinion . . .

 

[slaniav]

God in His Omniscience knows who would accept the chance to know existence. Luke1:44 (KJV)
Why then do many deny the power thereof? 2Timothy3:3
God in His Omniscience also knew man would be given various languages. Who shall call upon His name?

Matthew16:15-17King James Version(KJV)
“15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
————————————————–

Romans10:13King James Version(KJV)
“13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
——
All we are given is truly sufficient. Call upon His Name, search the Scriptures, worship on the day He kept, follow, as did the apostles, worship as they worshipped, and call upon whom they called upon, whether in Greek, Hebrew, or Aramaic.

-------------Excerpt—
"The book of Acts and the epistles were all written in Greek. Almost all the conversations in the book of Acts had to have taken place in Greek, not Hebrew. Think about it.
Luke, the author of Acts, was a Greek and he addressed it to another Greek, Theophilus (both names are Greek). Saul (Paul) and Luke accordingly used the Greek form Christos,” because the vast majority of their hearers would have understood that, but would not have understood “Messiah,” because they did not know Hebrew. Acts 6 mentions the large body of Greek-speaking Hebrews in Jerusalem, the heart of Hebrew country (6:1). Phillip preached to the Samaritans, and surely used Greek or Aramaic (Acts 8). The Gentile centurion Cornelius, some of his soldiers, and his whole household could not have understood Hebrew, yet understood Peter preaching- no doubt in Greek (Acts 10).
Paul, Barnabas and others taught the many Greeks who came to faith at Antioch (Acts 11,13). Paul persuaded the Roman proconsul on Cyprus, Sergius Paulus to believe (Acts 13:6-12)... Acts never mentions a synagogue in most of the cities Paul visited. Paul could not have communicated in Hebrew to his own coworkers such as Timothy and Titus, who were raised as Greeks. In fact, most of Paul’s coworkers had Greek names- Titus, Timothy, Apollos and Dionysius (names of Greek gods), Eutychus, the seven (Acts 6:6), the teachers at Antioch (Acts 13) and the long list of saints in Romans 16. Some names were Hebrew, such as Barnabas, which indicates that Luke wasn’t trying to expunge everything Hebrew and replace everything with Greek- he was just factually reporting the prevalence of both Hebrew and especially Greek in the early church.
Paul spoke with the judges and jailer at Philippi, a Roman colony, though they surely did not know Hebrew. Paul’s message to the Areopagus in Athens (Acts 17), and his defense when on trial before the Roman proconsul Gallio (Acts 18) were in Greek. The idolmakers in Ephesus (Acts 19) surely didn’t riot in Hebrew. Paul spoke Greek to the Roman commander and centurion who arrested him in the temple (Acts 21:37, 22:25), as did Paul’s nephew (23:19-21). Paul didn’t need a translator. Paul made his own defense when on trial before Governors Felix (Acts 24) and Festus (Acts 25-26). Paul surely spoke Greek to the captain and everyone on the ship on his voyage to Rome (Acts 27) and to the superstitious islanders on Malta (Acts 28). Since Paul spoke Greek to them, he always had to use “Iesous Christos” with the Greek endings on the name in order to be understood.
— An Aramaic NT did not have to exist in order for the Greek NT to transliterate “Yeshua” into “Iesous.” As I mentioned above, Paul and others spoke to many groups of people in Greek, using the “declined” word forms in order to be understood. Luke was quoting him.
— The New Testament sometimes uses a variety of spellings for names. The Greek form “Iesous” is used for Jesus in the NT, and is used for Joshua in the OT (you can check this in the Septuagint, as I mentioned above.) So every translator who sees “Iesous” in Hebrews has to guess by the context whether it refers to Jesus or Joshua, as in Hebrews 4. … people commonly translate the Iesous as either Joshua or Jesus. But it is not uncommon to have different spellings for the same name. For instance, Jude, Judah and Judas are all exactly the same name, and are spelled the same in Greek.. You can check this yourself by calling up Mat 1:2, 26:47 and Jude 1 in Greek at Unbound Bible . Matthew and Matthias are the same Greek name.
Why is the same Greek sometimes transliterated in different ways? It wouldn’t have to be. But it saves some explaining- you don’t have to tell every child, “no, Judas the betrayer didn’t write a book of the Bible.” Sometimes translators chop off the Greek “s” ending (like in Jude, Herod, etc) and other times leave it on (as in Judas, Jesus).
— When people translate the Greek New Testament into English (and other languages), why don’t the translators convert Greek forms of names like Iesous into Hebrew forms such as Yeshua? There are a few reasons for this. First, the Greek does not read Yeshua, it reads Iesous. Is it sound translation to write in sounds that don’t actually exist in the Greek original? Second, in conversations recorded in the second half of the book of Acts, such as Paul’s conversations in Ephesus, Philippi, etc, the speakers certainly used the Greek forms of the names (as noted above). To replace words that apostles actually said with Hebrew forms that they did not use is a stretch that translators think would be inappropriate or misleading."
-------------
Excerpt:
“Concerning the Name of THE Creator, is Exodus 3:14 which in the KJV says “And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and He said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you”.
According to Strong’s Concordance, which is actually a concordance of the Babylonian Aramaic Language (when referring to the Old Testament), the words “I AM That I AM” comes from H1961 H1961: “hayah hayah”. However in the true Hebrew Scriptures, it actually said
“EHJEH ASHER EHJEH”. (Pronouned I-JE Asher I-JE)
Source 1. Source 2, Source 3.
NOT “hayah hayah” and NOT “I Am, I Am”.
“EHJEH ASHER EHJEH” is hard to translate into just 3 or 4 English words. It means “I am JEH (the h is silent so it’s pronounced JE, the same sound in JEsus) the beginning, currently self-existing, and eternally existing, JEH”. HE was speaking a sentence that basically says “”I am JE the beginning, currently self-existing, and eternally existing, JE”, or in other words, HE was saying I am JE, The Alpha & the Omega, the beginning and the end, the eternal”. He said that HIS Name is JE as in JE-sus, JE with us, GOD with us.”
“In Greek, the I in Iesous would be pronounced with a J sound. NOT with an i sound. It was the letter called “iota”, which could carry either an i or j or y sound. In the first century A.D. and in the era of the 1611 King James translation, they only had one letter for both the i sound and the j sounds. But later on, people developed a separate letter for each sound. But the J sound did exist in both paleo-Hebrew and Greek during the original writings of the Old and New Testaments. Since paleo-Hebrew and Greek look alike and sound alike, the rules of the true Hebrew language would apply for the name of a Hebrew person. The rule of the true Hebrew language states that if the iota comes directly before a vowel, it must be pronounced with a J sound. Even the word iota was originally pronounced with the j sound. It was called the jota, jot, jod and Jud. The modern English spelling and sound of the word iota results from Aramaic influence. Language history is very clear that the word iota had the j sound in Paleo Hebrew and Greek. So when we see the name IESOUS, we therefore would have Jesous.”
“The Apostles wrote JEH and Iesous. In the New Testament, they wrote Iesous. But the first letter which looks to us as an capital i was called the Jot. It was pronounced with the J sound whenever followed by an vowel such as E. Thus we have Jesous, which we pronounce as Jesus. Thus, the Apostles wrote what was spelled Iesous. It is still Jesus.”
” His Names include but not limited to: JEH, JE, JESUS, LORD, GOD, EHJEH, Adonai, EHJEH ASHER EHJEH, Alpha and Omega, The Word of GOD, KING of Kings, LORD of Lords, Emmanuel, GOD with us, Father, Saviour, Messiah, Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Rev.19:12 says He has a name that no man knows! Rev. 19 uses THREE “name”‘s for Him! One is the one that “No man knows”, one is “Word of God” and What name will be written on Him when He returns?
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”
-----------
Whom do we say He is? Truth answers beautifully

 

[Stephen63]

These are really baby Christians too - even if they can read all the Greek and Hebrew scriptures - or even if they can quote 1/2 the bible or pray in tongues for 5 hours a day. Their slandering, hatred and malice filled words reveal their age in the Lord. 1 Peter 2:1-3

My, that's a verrrrrrry strong statement you just made. I'm curious as to what kind of education you have, calling in ministry, experience, etc., to ascertain such a high-end, superspiritual hypothesis. BTW, claims to spiritual discernment don't count, because every pharisaical hypocrite in CC makes that claim.

Now, please explain.....

 

[Stephen63]

Sanctification is instantaneous while Godliness is progressive.

Sanctification means separated from profane use and set apart for holy use.

That's why in the OT, people and items were sanctified once and set apart unto the Lord. while godliness is the believer's daily walk in God-likeness and manifesting the true nature of the new man in Christ - the new creation - created in righteousness and holiness.

There were garments that were holy - does that mean they were "progressively" getting holy?....No, of course not - they were "set apart" for use.

There were holy days - does that mean the were "progressively" being sanctified? The gold was sanctified in the temple. Lot's of examples of the real use of the term "set apart/sanctified".

Godliness is a better way of describing the process of "working out what already is in us in Christ in our inner man" - the new creation in Christ - created in righteousness and holiness.

Hebrews 10:14 says "we are sanctified" and it is in the present passive - which means we are being "set apart" and it is all done passively to us because we are in Christ and we are being "transformed" by the Holy Spirit as we behold the glory of the Lord as in a mirror. 2 Cor 3:17-18.

We already are sanctified ( set apart ) because we are in Christ now as these scriptures clearly show. Sometimes our religious teachings are ingrained in our minds and when we hear something "different" we balk at them and of course it's heresy to us...as usual...

Christ is our sanctification:

1 Corinthians 1:30 (NASB)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,

Acts 20:32 ; Acts 26:18; Rom. 15:16; 1 Cor. 1:2; 1 Cor. 6:19; Heb. 10:10; Jude 1:1 - all these scriptures say that we as Christians are already sanctified/set-apart. There are either in the Greek perfect tense or the past tense and they are passive which means it is something done to us - not us doing it.

Now, I believe as we work out the sanctification and life of Christ that is in us in our new creation that is in Christ now - we are then set apart/sanctified for use by the Lord here in this earth.

This is where godliness has great gain not only in this life but in the world to come. God rewards us for the work that He does through and in us. What a great salvation and awesome Lord we belong to!

Jesus is our only sanctification? That's it? So, is ISIT right when he says your doctrine claims instantaneous perfection because Jesus does everything?

If that's not so, how does the rest take place IF we don't do anything to obtain it?

Please explain.....

 

[Stephen63]

Godliness is a better way of describing the process of "working out what already is in us in Christ in our inner man" - the new creation in Christ - created in righteousness and holiness.

We can "work out" more than Christ has already done? How can works not have a place in our salvation, & now has a place in us becoming "more holy, more godly"?

Please explain..... carefully.

 

[Stephen63]

Those that slander others in the body of Christ and are hate and malice filled - are baby Christians and their behavior proves it. If people are offended by this - then let's all grow up in the Lord!

1 Peter 2:1-2 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Therefore, putting aside all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander,

[SUP]2 [/SUP] like newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may grow in respect to salvation,

If you believe that so strongly, then you need to teach that to your hypergrace group. Perhaps you could start with this one:

Your pride is a black hole that dominates your soul.

 

[Stephen63]

Guys who can't bench press 70lbs are often good at condescending people from the safety of cyberspace anonymity.

Considering your tremendous experience in that catagory, I'll take your word for it.

 

[Stephen63]

This is exactly what you are doing to others. We never started with the issues about HG
believers, it is they who set out continually to label people legalists.
I have never condemned legalists or HG believers except for the sin of judging and continual
slander about not believing in Christ for salvation but working for it.

This is why it is so odd to be accused of this sin, when it is the very people who commit it
try to use it against others when they are pointed out as the guilty party.

This is why it is such a double faced position, claiming grace but condemning people of faith.

It's called psychological projection. It's what controlling, domineering people do to keep from accepting responsibility for their sins/trouble/character flaws. It's involved in narcissitic personality disorder, where people super-elevate themselves above others, blaming the others for what they're guilty of. A superiority complex, or, according to some christian teachings, a Jezebel spirit.

 

[Stephen63]

You think Jesus has to be crucified again for your future sins? Really?

I have trouble answering people who make erronerous statements because of their obvious innability to give biblically educated answers.

 

[Stephen63]

But wait....

But you had a cow about the book of Hebrews being for the Jews????

But wait, you said...





But you said that part of Hebrews is only to those bad Jews right?



Ah so, though you say the book of Hebrews is only for the Jews, you just mean all the warning parts. All the good parts and blessing are for us good Gentile Christian folk. Gotcha! LOL

Quite a bit of doublespeak there, wasn't it?

 

[Stephen63]

Wow, looks like I've been quite a thread hog, yes? I just caught up with everyone from 4 pages behind, & boy, I'm tired.

 

[Eternallife]

It is a little more complex than that. True Jesus died 2000 years ago and we were not born yet, however Christ told his followers ( people that beloved He was Christ) that if they continued in His word they would know the truth and the truth will set them free. Mankind seems to think that as long as we have the Word in hand ( and some on here mistakenly think they don't even need the word) and say we love Jesus we have the faith needed to be right with God. I suggest that the faith God requires involves us realizing that Christ is to be obeyed completely and we do it. He told the centurion that many will come to sit down with Abraham Issac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven but the children of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. Jesus says it plainly why do you call me Lord and do not do the thing I say. I guess what I'm saying is that yes Christ made atonement for our sins two thousand years ago, but if we don't have the faith God requires we are still under His wrath.

 

[Eternallife]

believed not beloved typo in last message

 

[PeterJens]

Let us think a little about definitions.
Those who are in Jesus, are in Jesus through faith in His nature and work on the cross.
Jesus came to transform people by showing them the love of God, and their response
turns them from people of darkness to people of light.

If you hold in Jesus he has redeemed the whole world, ie. all are saved, then all references
to Christ and redemption are for the world. If you take a more biblical view that in Christ
are only those who believe, then all verses are referring to this group.

1 cor 7:14 is about nullifying the effect of an unbelieving spouse on the children and the
partner, by the believer sanctifying the effect of the unbelieving spouse.
2 cor 5:19-20 is about Jesus bringing reconciliation to those who believe in Him. The world
has the potential to be reconciled to God through Christ, but only if they believe.

Now it is possible to leave out the constraints or previso's when referring to general
positions but for some this means the constraints do not exist.

So I can say I am a wealthy man. But I am wealthy in health, in my family, in my work
but not in my societies eyes. So language is often layered in summaries and contexts.

It is why you need to take a phrase and look at the constraints around it.
It is why many fail to understand scripture and Jesus's intent. Without previso's things
will often contradict each other.

Love does not hate. If you do not hate your family you cannot follow Jesus.
Now this appears as a contradiction. But if you walk in love, you do not hate people
or what they are, you love them but hate the evil they do.
Equally if you love Jesus, but put your love of your family above Jesus, you fail to
follow our Lord. To emphasis this the phrase you must hate your family starts.
So love of your family comes through Christ after you have turned away from blind
loyalty.

This is why the interpretation below is naive, and too simplistic.
To put it simply things are not just made Holy, they are washed, cleansed, put right,
changed, and then they are Holy.

1 Corinthians 7:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

If God's mind the world is reconciled to Himself because of what Christ did. We have the ministry of reconciliation to tell the people to receive this truth and believe in the Son.

2 Corinthians 5:19-20 (NASB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

[SUP]20 [/SUP] Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

If the fact that the world has been "set apart/sanctified" to God through the finished work of Christ and it is up to them to believe and receive this truth - if this offends your religious beliefs - so be it.

( This is what Hebrews 10:29 is really talking about and to reject Christ's sacrifice is to insult the Spirit of grace. )

God has given us the ministry of reconciliation NOT the ministry of condemnation like some here in CC "think is their ministry".

 

[Grace777x70]

Originally Posted by Grace777x70


These are really baby Christians too - even if they can read all the Greek and Hebrew scriptures - or even if they can quote 1/2 the bible or pray in tongues for 5 hours a day. Their slandering, hatred and malice filled words reveal their age in the Lord. 1 Peter 2:1-3

My, that's a verrrrrrry strong statement you just made. I'm curious as to what kind of education you have, calling in ministry, experience, etc., to ascertain such a high-end, superspiritual hypothesis. BTW, claims to spiritual discernment don't count, because every pharisaical hypocrite in CC makes that claim.

Now, please explain.....

Simple....the post stands on it's own as Peter says. Maturity in Christ can be seen by certain behaviors. Slandering and malice are signs of a baby Christian no matter how their minds may have progressed in their own natural understandings.

1 Peter 2:1-2 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Therefore, putting aside all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander,


[SUP]2 [/SUP] like newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may grow in respect to salvation,

 

[Grace777x70]

Jesus is our only sanctification? That's it? So, is ISIT right when he says your doctrine claims instantaneous perfection because Jesus does everything?

If that's not so, how does the rest take place IF we don't do anything to obtain it?

Please explain.....

Re-read the posts again as this has been answered by a few on here already. We are perfect in our spirits which is the new creation in Christ - created in righteousness and holiness. We are not however perfect in exhibiting this in our flesh as we ought to but we are trusting the Lord to work that out in us. He is faithful!

Don't you just love the Lord for His goodness and love, grace and mercy towards us?

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

It is a little more complex than that. True Jesus died 2000 years ago and we were not born yet, however Christ told his followers ( people that beloved He was Christ) that if they continued in His word they would know the truth and the truth will set them free. Mankind seems to think that as long as we have the Word in hand ( and some on here mistakenly think they don't even need the word) and say we love Jesus we have the faith needed to be right with God. I suggest that the faith God requires involves us realizing that Christ is to be obeyed completely and we do it. He told the centurion that many will come to sit down with Abraham Issac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven but the children of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. Jesus says it plainly why do you call me Lord and do not do the thing I say. I guess what I'm saying is that yes Christ made atonement for our sins two thousand years ago, but if we don't have the faith God requires we are still under His wrath.

You make a good point here which exposes alot of false doctrine like "hyper grace" and OSAS. Many say they have faith in Jesus Christ, but when it comes to believing the words of God you will find this is not true. Faith in Christ is also faith in every word of God. Those who disobey, reject, twist, and have to try to explain away the words of God as not true, do not truly have faith in Christ.

Here is an old thread I wrote on this topic of how OSAS followers do not have faith in the words of God that clearly speak of those who would in fact fall away from the faith.

The doctrine of OSAS denies the faith by denying the words of God, which is denying Jesus Christ the very Word of God. Let me explain.

It is written by Grace you are saved through faith, and also in Romans 5:2 “By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. As it is also written, the children of faith are counted for the seed. And we see in Hebrews 11:6 “But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.”

Just as it is written the just shall live by faith, and we are justified by faith in Jesus Christ, which is also faith in the very Word of God. Just as Jesus said Matthew 4:4 “But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. Just as we are to abide in Christ, and in His words by faith.

And this is where the lies of OSAS doctrine begins to be exposed for what it is, which is not of faith in what Gods words say are true.

Not many Christians will argue against salvation not being based on Grace through faith and belief in Jesus Christ. But some believe that faith is not connected or expressed in our own actions or any works on our part. And some even believe one cannot lose that salvation by faith no matter what, leaving the notion wide open that one can wilfully sin without any consequence of losing salvation.

This false doctrine is what Jude warned of in Jude 1:4 “For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.”

But if you do not abide in the obedience of the faith, but in unbelief, then how can you please God? After all were not the branches of Israel broken off because of unbelief?

Romans 11:20-22 “Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:[SUP]21 [/SUP]For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.[SUP]22 [/SUP]Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.”

That sure sounds like a warning to abide in faith doesn’t it? For we stand by faith, but some say you cannot fall.

Abiding in that faith means abiding in the faith of Jesus, but also abiding in His words by faith, meaning every God breathed word spoken by the Holy Spirit. But again, the error of OSAS denies the words of God by saying you cannot fall from salvation, which is based on faith. But some will say, well if they fall they were never really saved in the first place. But go back to the definition of what saved means in scripture, which is by grace through faith.

But then they might say, well they were never really born again of the Holy Spirit. But the words of God covers that as well in Hebrews 6:4-8 “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,[SUP]5 [/SUP]And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,[SUP]6 [/SUP]If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.[SUP]7 [/SUP]For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:[SUP]8 [/SUP]But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.”

But many will deny these words of God are true. They will try to twist it’s meaning by saying it is out of context, or a poor translation, or it’s not directed to us, or it’s not in the original text, or your interpreting the scriptures wrong, blah, blah, blah.

But folks, these verses are a warning for those who turn back, and fall away from the faith.
And those who deny those Holy Spirit inspired words, also deny there is to even be a falling away from the faith. And to deny the words of God, is to deny Jesus Christ. Be not deceived by the doctrines of devils.

1 Timothy 4:1 “Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;”

 

[Grace777x70]

We can "work out" more than Christ has already done? How can works not have a place in our salvation, & now has a place in us becoming "more holy, more godly"?

Please explain..... carefully.

Ok...I'll try to explain it again to you. Philippians 2: 12-13 speaks of this very thing - work out your salvation for it is God who is at work in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure. God has everything under control. We can trust Him.

We work out outwardly in our behavior to reflect our true nature what already is in our inner man - the new creation in Christ.

This takes the transformation of the Holy Spirit as we behold the glory ( goodness ) of Christ as in a mirror. 2 Cor. 3:17-18. This way our mind gets renewed to walk in the truth of our true identity in Christ as sons/daughters of God.

In answer to you in this post and in post #386 - perhaps if you read carefully this post below - things will become clearer for you. We really need to understand what "sanctification and being sanctified " really means biblically. Religion has taught us that it is only to do with "sinning" but scripture speaks of better things in Christ and truth.

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/142440-building-upon-lie-17.html#post2819214

Here is another post that will shed more light on this subject too.

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...w-spirit-life-christ-jesus-2.html#post2796867