Does scripture teach that God showed preference with Israel over all the other peoples of the earth ? Yes or No
Calvinism is Gospel !
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I know he was looking after his wife who was in need of more care than a "regular" person,
but other than that I do not know much else. He was on another chat site also, but I do
not publicly post there much; Rufus was there also but I have seen neither of them around
much, not that I am that active either. It's likely he tired of the nastiness of the FWers here.
Interesting, how they want you to perform an action outside of your range of ability, but they still tell you to do it.
They were great contributors - both are missed.
Salvation BY FAITH is the "Christian Gospel". "Calvinism" agrees. Good for them!!!!
Wrong. Calvinism proclaims salvation is by God regenerating a person first, then the person exercises faith.
Calvinism has salvation backwards. It claims that even though Jesus preached “Repent and believe the gospel”, no one can obey that command. It teaches that God forces repentance upon a person.
Actually, Calvinism comports with Paul's epistle in 1Corinthians 2.
Okay, I will go first. Here are my comments comparing (C) your tulip (TU) creed compared with the NT creed:
TU-1. The Sovereign and Discriminating Jehovah: There is one sovereign, holy, and just God (Deut 6:4), who does whatever pleases Him in heaven and on earth (Psa 115:3). His saving love is not a blanket, helpless wish, but a discriminating, covenantal love reserved for His elect remnant, whom He chose in Christ before the foundation of the world purely according to the good pleasure of His will (Eph 1:4-5, Rom 11:5-7).
NT-1. There is a/one all-loving and just Lord or God (Deut. 6:4, John 3:16, 2Thes. 1:6), who is both able (2Tim. 1:12) and willing (1Tim. 2:3-4, Ezek. 33:11) to provide all morally accountable human beings salvation or heaven—a wonderful life full of love, joy and peace forever.
C-1. TU omits the NT teaching in John 3:16 & 1Tim. 2:3-4 that God is omniloving, and it views God as just even though He wills to save only a few who are favored with election, which contradicts 1Tim. 2:3-4 & Rom. 2:11. The creeds agree that God is sovereign, but the NT says God is pleased to save all who choose to repent (Matt. 4:17), seek God's salvation (Matt. 7:7) and believe in Christ (1Cor. 1:21-23).
Would someone else like to lead the analysis of the next part of the creeds?
Honestly, when people get into debates about TULIP, it usually turns into this intense, hyper-intellectual argument where everyone is just throwing theology jargon back and forth. But if you strip away all the heavy academic phrasing, the five points are really just trying to tell the story of the Gospel.
Think about it like this:
Total Depravity is basically just setting the stage for why we even need a Savior in the first place.
The Gospel starts with the bad news that sin completely wrecked us. We aren't just "sick" and needing a little spiritual medicine; we’re spiritually drowning and completely helpless on our own. You can't really celebrate a rescue mission unless you realize how deep the water actually was.
Unconditional Election is just a fancy way of talking about pure grace.
It means God didn't look down from heaven, see that we were super nice or smart, and decide we were worth saving. He chose to love us just because He is loving. It completely takes our ego out of the equation and mirrors that core Gospel truth—salvation is a 100% unearned gift.
Limited Atonement ,or Particular Redemption, which sounds a lot less harsh, is really about the power of the cross.
Instead of Jesus dying to just make salvation a vague possibility—like He built a bridge but it's up to us to walk across—this point says His death actually worked.
He didn’t just try to save us; He fully, definitely secured our rescue on that cross.
Irresistible Grace isn't about God forcing people to follow Him against their will.
It’s more like the ultimate "lightbulb moment." The Gospel talks about getting a new heart and being born again. When the Holy Spirit opens your eyes to see how amazing Jesus actually is, you don't want to run away anymore. You joyfully run toward Him because your desires completely changed.
Perseverance of the Saints is the ultimate sigh of relief. If keeping my salvation depended on my own perfect behavior, I’d mess it up by lunchtime.
This point is just the Gospel promise of eternal security. The same God who started the rescue is the one who finishes it, and nothing can pluck us out of His hand.
At the end of the day, TULIP isn't just a rigid checklist to argue about on a message board. It's just a framework that points back to one main thing: God gets all the credit for saving us, from start to finish.
Think about it like this:
Total Depravity is basically just setting the stage for why we even need a Savior in the first place.
The Gospel starts with the bad news that sin completely wrecked us. We aren't just "sick" and needing a little spiritual medicine; we’re spiritually drowning and completely helpless on our own. You can't really celebrate a rescue mission unless you realize how deep the water actually was.
Unconditional Election is just a fancy way of talking about pure grace.
It means God didn't look down from heaven, see that we were super nice or smart, and decide we were worth saving. He chose to love us just because He is loving. It completely takes our ego out of the equation and mirrors that core Gospel truth—salvation is a 100% unearned gift.
Limited Atonement ,or Particular Redemption, which sounds a lot less harsh, is really about the power of the cross.
Instead of Jesus dying to just make salvation a vague possibility—like He built a bridge but it's up to us to walk across—this point says His death actually worked.
He didn’t just try to save us; He fully, definitely secured our rescue on that cross.
Irresistible Grace isn't about God forcing people to follow Him against their will.
It’s more like the ultimate "lightbulb moment." The Gospel talks about getting a new heart and being born again. When the Holy Spirit opens your eyes to see how amazing Jesus actually is, you don't want to run away anymore. You joyfully run toward Him because your desires completely changed.
Perseverance of the Saints is the ultimate sigh of relief. If keeping my salvation depended on my own perfect behavior, I’d mess it up by lunchtime.
This point is just the Gospel promise of eternal security. The same God who started the rescue is the one who finishes it, and nothing can pluck us out of His hand.
At the end of the day, TULIP isn't just a rigid checklist to argue about on a message board. It's just a framework that points back to one main thing: God gets all the credit for saving us, from start to finish.
I would say that sin wrecked us, and instead of drowning, we are drowned, dead, the rescue need to be able to resurrect us from the dead. Thanks for your post !
Very well spoken. We know FWers love to misrepresent things, so claiming we were forced
is one way they do that, and they harp on it and harp on it and pretend that is what anyone
has said besides them. They also love to pretend we think we are better than others because
we acknowledge what Scripture actually says and they actually deny, about it being God's
choice, when the reality is, we are the ones admitting we were sinners in need of being
saved beyond our own ability, while they make claims about having done something Jesus
says is impossible. Some of these great intellectual FWers will tell us that God convinced
them and then they got to choose to decide if they believed what they were convinced
of. Sounds totally illogical to me. If I am convinced of something, I already believe it.
Jesus did say that those given to Him by God will come to Him. There is no, I am giving them
the option, they can then choose whether they want to or not. This is expressed in ways such
as irresistible grace, which one way I understand it is, having had the Holy Spirit convict me
of my sinful nature, and my standing before an all powerful and holy God, and agreeing with
Him, certainly knowing how unworthy I am of His love, love which He did make me very much
aware of, as well as His forgiveness through the cross of Christ, even though I did not understand
the cross of Christ at the time... having the truth revealed to me, which is an act of the Holy Spirit's
leading, it is not so much that I chose to believe, but that upon reflection it was almost like a
revelation of suddenly discovering that I did believe... after many years of running from God in
rebellion and defiance, after being raised Roman Catholic and quitting the church as a teen, and
exploring and seeking and practicing, for many years, other options I thought were "spiritual,"
because anything seemed better than the God of the Bible, and that is the truth of the incurably
wicked heart for humanity as a whole. I was almost fifty when I converted and was baptized.
They on the other hand come across as being devoid of any understanding of the natural man.
Thanks for sharing your testimony, but you need to understand that our experience does not determine what is normative doctrine,
because others including myself have a quite different but just as valid testimony about having been raised by Christian parents and believing in God and loving Jesus from infancy.
Thus, we ought to be truthseekers (2Thes. 2:10): willing to amend our current beliefs as we learn how to harmonize Scriptural doctrine, which teaches what IS normative.
I understand you think you have an inerrant understanding of "the natural man", but you need to leave papal infallibility behind with the rest of problematic RC doctrines and discuss different understandings with humility, seeking to harmonize both sides of issues, which is called a dialectical hermeneutic or theology.
Thank you.
I figure when some choose to make false statements,like God forces Savation upon people,and also attempt to slander the Gospel tenets synopsized in TULIP, it was time to point out the facts.
One doesn't have to be a Calviist to know the Reformed doctrine espoused in Calvinism was taught by Jesus first.
I'm starting to think the rally here by some who condemn the steps of Salvation is an agenda against the Gospel itself.
While railing against Calvinism is the excuse.
Really,who takes seriously the mindset that says, no God doesn't call me to His grace. I gotta do that myself!
It would be like someone offering a homeless person a million dollars in cash. Only to be rebuked because the one who tries to find something to eat in a dumpster insists they'll make their own money instead.
Another thing. Maybe the reason we can't wad people to understand the state of natural man is because they are that.
I couldn't fix the typo in, was, so this repost will have to do.
Thank you
I figure when some choose to make false statements,like God forces Savation upon people,and also attempt to slander the Gospel tenets synopsized in TULIP, it was time to point out the facts.
One doesn't have to be a Calviist to know the Reformed doctrine espoused in Calvinism was taught by Jesus first.
I'm starting to think the rally here by some who condemn the steps of Salvation is an agenda against the Gospel itself.
While railing against Calvinism is the excuse.
Really,who takes seriously the mindset that says, no God doesn't call me to His grace. I gotta do that myself!
It would be like someone offering a homeless person a million dollars in cash. Only to be rebuked because the one who tries to find something to eat in a dumpster insists they'll make their own money instead.
Another thing. Maybe the reason we can't lead people to understand the state of natural man is because they are that.
Thank you
I figure when some choose to make false statements,like God forces Savation upon people,and also attempt to slander the Gospel tenets synopsized in TULIP, it was time to point out the facts.
One doesn't have to be a Calviist to know the Reformed doctrine espoused in Calvinism was taught by Jesus first.
I'm starting to think the rally here by some who condemn the steps of Salvation is an agenda against the Gospel itself.
While railing against Calvinism is the excuse.
Really,who takes seriously the mindset that says, no God doesn't call me to His grace. I gotta do that myself!
It would be like someone offering a homeless person a million dollars in cash. Only to be rebuked because the one who tries to find something to eat in a dumpster insists they'll make their own money instead.
Another thing. Maybe the reason we can't lead people to understand the state of natural man is because they are that.
Wrong. Calvinism does say that God forces salvation on individuals, without anybody seeking God or responding to Bible preaching. Calvinists proclaims that God arbitrarily puts repentance and faith in people.
Jesus did not teach Reformed (actually deformed) doctrine.
Jesus preached, “Repent and believe the gospel”.
Calvinists teach that no one can obey that command of Jesus, they have to be regenerated first, then they repent and believe.
Thus, Calvinism proclaims a backward gospel.
A Calvinist cannot tell an unsaved that Christ died for their sins.
A Calvinist would have to say, “If God regenerates you, then Christ died for your sins. Otherwise, Christ did not die for your sins. Maybe God will regenerate you, maybe He won’t. Your seeking God has nothing to do with it, so you might as well not seek Him.”
That is a massive caricature of what Calvinists actually believe and preach.
You’re attacking a strawman version of Reformed theology rather than what it actually teaches.
Firstly,, Calvinism doesn't teach that God forces anyone into salvation against their will. That’s a total myth. The idea behind "irresistible grace" isn't coercion; it’s transformation.
It means God changes a person’s heart so that they want to choose Him.
When a person gets saved, they do it willingly, joyfully, and of their own free choice because their eyes have finally been opened to how beautiful the Gospel is and how lost they are in a fallen world,living with a carnal mentality.
Psalm 110:3 says, God's people "will offer themselves freely" on the day of His power. It’s like a blind person being healed—they don't need to be "forced" to see; they just look.
The argument about the order of regeneration and faith being "backward" also misses what scripture actually says.
Jesus literally told Nicodemus in John 3 that a person has to be born again before they can even see or enter the kingdom of God.
Paul said in Ephesians 2 that we are completely "dead in trespasses and sins" before Christ makes us alive.
A dead person can't choose to do anything.
God has to breathe life into us first. That's called
Regeneration. That is the immediate, natural result of that new life when we repent and believe.
Jesus tells us this in John 6. He said, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him."
That's Jesus ,who was God,telling us this.
It's not a backward gospel; it’s just how a spiritual resurrection works.
Also, the claim that Calvinists can't do evangelism or tell people to seek God is just historically and practically wrong.
Some of the most passionate evangelists and missionaries in church history—guys like George Whitefield, Jonathan Edwards, and Charles Spurgeon—were completely Reformed.
A Calvinist doesn’t try to guess who the "elect" are before they preach. They just stand up and give the universal offer of the Gospel to everyone, just like Paul did in Acts 17.
God "commands all people everywhere to repent."
If someone is actively seeking God, a Calvinist wouldn't tell them it's a waste of time. They’d tell them that their desire to seek God is absolute proof that the Holy Spirit is already at work in their heart!
Romans 3 tells us that no one naturally seeks God on their own.
That's not exclusive to Calvinism. God tells us that.
At the end of the day, Calvinism isn’t trying to overcomplicate the Gospel or make it exclusive.
It’s just trying to protect one core biblical truth: Salvation is 100% God's work from start to finish, and He gets all the credit.
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