Calvinism is Gospel !

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If not for the fact I learn from having to rebut their nonsense, it would be a complete waste of time!!

But it is wearing very thin, they say the same things over and over again and not only that they are very disingenuous how they handle scripture, ignoring context, using word meanings that support their "system" when needed and then switching when it does not, along with using eisegesis over and over again.
I do not like repeating myself - which is why I have stopped posting here - but damn do they love it - they do not consider anything anyone posts and just spout the same stuff over and over. And its very annoying when they change the meaning of simple English words like choice etc.

I notice the absence of a certain person constantly saying we are all lying - maybe she's got fed up with it also

But keep posting if you can - if someone is on the fence it might help them :) I just have not the energy lol
 
I do not like repeating myself - which is why I have stopped posting here - but damn do they love it - they do not consider anything anyone posts and just spout the same stuff over and over. And its very annoying when they change the meaning of simple English words like choice etc.

I notice the absence of a certain person constantly saying we are all lying - maybe she's got fed up with it also

But keep posting if you can - if someone is on the fence it might help them :) I just have not the energy lol

She got fed up with herself? :unsure:
 
Well, you should ask for clarification before assuming what I seem to mean, because all I meant was that there are many synonyms for God in Scripture, including the word "Word". I apologize for your misunderstanding my play on words.

You have that donkey backwards chief. YOU should have asked for clarification since you jumped to the absurd (considering how I post) idea I thought God was not in the Bible. You are not being truthful here.

I'm not sure you have ever truthfully thought yourself to need to apologize to anyone. Absolutely ridiculous post. You are both confusing and confused.
 
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FYI, I do not mention my website in posts any longer, because I was warned that was against the rules.
Although I created the website and add to it weekly, I invite anyone including AI to use it as a resource.
I also invite constructive suggestions regarding corrections or additions.
You should ask questions instead of making false accusations.

Yeah. I told you so. :cool:
 
Do you have anything to say about the text or my interpretation?

As per my post....why are you pretending I had nothing to say? ++
Paul makes the same theological move in Romans 11 that Peter makes in his teaching about the apparent “delay” of the Lord’s return. Peter says the Lord is patient, holding back the Day until He has brought all whom He intends to repentance; Paul frames that same logic in terms of Israel’s present condition. In Romans 11 he explains that a partial hardening has come upon Israel—not total, not final—until the full number of Gentiles has come in. In other words, God is orchestrating history toward a redemptive fullness, and the present delay is not evidence of divine slackness but of divine purpose. Just as Peter says God waits so that all may reach repentance, Paul says God waits until His Gentile ingathering is complete, after which He will remove Israel’s hardening and bring about their restoration. Both apostles interpret the “delay” not as an interruption in God’s plan but as the very means by which God completes it.

You say you are a teacher but you are not my teacher. I prefer those who understand the original languages and let the Bible speak for itself in the context of the people who actually wrote it.

You can skirt that issue all day; I don't care.

Roger that
 
So there is Roger pretending I didn't have anything to say about his opinions. Yet, I wrote one of the longest posts I have made in this forum to him. Here it is again both for Roger and for those who believed I was just making fun of him as he did to me.

Here is the post Roger said I did not make. Post 5520 :


That's nonsense. Taking God is not willing that any should perish and creating containment to the recipients of the letter, is bogus.

In context, that verse does not mean what you are tying to make it say at all. In fact, that would mean that no one in this century should take anything written 2000 years as meant for them personally. Of course that would be harmful to all the OT scripture the dedicated Calvinist uses to present as useful to the doctrine. In context:

8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Peter walked with Jesus. I think he had a far better understanding than the scripture massagers in this forum. He plainly states that
God does not want anyone to perish....unlike Calvinists who seem to love the thought of some people created solely for the purpose of going to hell.

You have created a god after your own heart and God, who is Spirit, and who is love, and who is holy and without fault, does not agree with your devilish assessment of Him.

The gospel, the actual gospel as found in scripture, teaches that through faith in Christ we have forgivness of our sins and that is by the grace of God....not the lies of Calvinism or those who teach it. The hiss of a graceless creature sounds in every teaching of Calvinism and the smell of decay clings to all of it. Those in Christ are given new life. We do not think we are special or chosen above others; indeed, the Bible teaches us to humble ourselves and think of others better than ourselves.

We do not find that in Calvinism. We find braggers and boasters who fancy themselves special to God; those whom God created to spend eternity with Him while the rest of humanity feeds the fires of an eternal hell.

What is the matter with you people? I think you have not found your identity in Christ but you surely have found a false identity in a man named John Calvin.

Don't bother with your AI junk. You have no idea what is actually going on with AI. I mean who needs the Holy Spirit when you have AI, eh? AI is deception and you have seen nothing yet and no, I don't believe you will change a thing and I mean why should you?
Right?

Putting your faith in something, Calvinsim in this case, is as much of a choice as any other of the choices you have made BUT Calvinists deny that we have that ability. And the irony of it all would be funny if it were not so serious.

God did not and would not ever place His Spirit in a degenerate and hopeless sinner who is so depraved he delights in it and seeks every occasion to sin his little heart out. This is not unconditional election. That, is foolish and as close to blasphemy without actually setting your clothes on fire, as God allows.

The Spirit of God seals a person who has accepted Christ as their Redeemer. He does not mess with the depraved and force salvation on anyone. Grace is not irresistable. People resist all the time as they resist truth in order to make themselves the little god instead of falling on their knees before the living One who is actually God.

I have no expectations that you will be at all interested in anything but countering what I wrote but you should understand that I
have the understanding, you are far from the only one reading this.

Yeah I noticed you state you are not a Calvinist. You still slice and dice scripture in a way that brings to mind that doctrine.
 
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Well you Calvinists can encourage each other or post flagrantly wrong opinions and distort what others say to your heart's content.

As with all other Calvinism threads in this forum, this one has reached it's conclusion with nothing but repeat on auto-dial and condemnation of God's good character so 279 pages has proven, yet again, that Calvinists will stoutly argue their doctrine, cannot prove it from scripture and relish the thought of hell's fires consuming those not as lucky as they are.
 
GWH, your response is nothing more than a collection of tired, unscriptural clichés because you cannot handle the raw data of the text. You accuse the biblical doctrine of election of turning humans into robots, and you claim that sovereign grace limits God’s sovereignty. Think about what you are saying. You are arguing that in order for God to be truly sovereign, He must limit His own power and subject His eternal decrees to the shifting whims of human willpower. That is a logical absurdity. A god who is not allowed to unconditionally save whom He pleases is not a sovereign god at all; he is a prisoner to the creature's choice.

Furthermore, your accusation that John 12:39-40 makes God responsible for sin shows that your issue is not with me, but with the Holy Spirit who wrote the text. I didn't write John 12:39-40; the Apostle John did. The text says bluntly: Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart. You completely dodged this scripture because it shatters your theology. God does not infuse evil into human hearts to make them sin; man is already born totally depraved, corrupt, and in active rebellion. God is the holy and righteous Judge who judicially hardens the reprobate in the very sins they already freely love, while sovereignly softening the elect by pure grace.

You claim that saving faith is God's condition for salvation, but you fail to answer the ultimate question: where does that faith come from? If faith is a condition that man must generate out of his own natural willpower, then salvation is a reward for human effort, and man has a reason to boast. But Scripture says faith is a gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast (Ephesians 2:8-9).

The only one twisting scriptures into a pretzel is you. You completely ignored Christ's clear statement in John 10:26: Ye believe not, because ye are not of My sheep. You want the text to say "you are not My sheep because you don't believe," but Christ states the exact opposite. Sovereign election determines who the sheep are, and the sheep inevitably believe because the Spirit quickens them. Drop the emotional arguments about robots, stop running from the text, and answer the words on the page: if man's free will is the ultimate decider, why did Christ say people could not believe because God hardened them?



No, God IS sovereign and therefore is not constrained by your temporal decrees that He must confine His power to creating robots rather than humans and limit His love only to a few rather than unconditionally love everyone. Not only is tulip absurd, it is blasphemous and heretical. Dodge that logic at your own eternal risk!
 
I think irresistible grace lives and works in Amsterdam, but I am very tired at the moment so I might be getting mixed up :sleep:

This Calvinist thread is never ending :)

Yes, we should avoid never ending. I am winding down.
The main reason I participate is to prevent folks from being perverted, hopefully.
"While My Guitar Gently Weeps"
 
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You have that donkey backwards chief. YOU should have asked for clarification since you jumped to the absurd (considering how I post) idea I thought God was not in the Bible. You are not being truthful here.

I'm not sure you have ever truthfully thought yourself to need to apologize to anyone. Absolutely ridiculous post. You are both confusing and confused.

I did NOT think that you thought God was not in the Bible!
What we have here is a failure to communicate!
I apologize for my part of the confusion.
 
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No, God IS sovereign and therefore is not constrained by your temporal decrees that He must confine His power to creating robots rather than humans and limit His love only to a few rather than unconditionally love everyone. Not only is tulip absurd, it is blasphemous and heretical. Dodge that logic at your own eternal risk!
GWH, your response is exactly what I expected: total capitulation disguised as righteous indignation. When presented with the raw, uncompromising text of Holy Writ, you couldn't produce a single verse to defend your position. Instead, you retreated into human philosophy, threw an emotional tantrum, and hurled labels like "absurd," "blasphemous," and "heretical." Calling God’s sovereign truth a "TULIP" does not erase the words from your Bible.

Let's address your philosophical redefinition of sovereignty. You claim a sovereign God must have the freedom to "limit His own power" to accommodate human free will. Think about the logical disaster of that statement. If God must limit His own power and desires to save everyone, yet millions perish in hell, then human willpower is ultimately stronger than God's desire. That doesn't make God sovereign; it makes man the supreme deity of his own salvation, while your god sits on the sidelines hoping someone chooses him. The true God of Scripture declares, "My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure" (Isaiah 46:10), and He "worketh all things after the counsel of his own will" (Ephesians 1:11). He does not ask permission from the clay.

You completely dodged the logic of the text because you have no answer for it:
  1. John 12:39-40: The text does not say they would not believe; it says point-blank, "Therefore they could not believe, because... He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart." You claim my view makes humans "robots," but the Apostle John says their inability to believe was the direct result of God's judicial blinding. Are you calling the Holy Spirit "heretical" for writing those words?
  2. John 10:26: Christ told the religious elites, "Ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep." Your theology demands that a man believes in order to become a sheep. Christ states the exact opposite: their lack of faith was proof they were never among His chosen flock to begin with. The sheep belong to the Father, are given to the Son, and are quickened by the Spirit.
You tell me to "dodge your logic at my own eternal risk," but your logic is rooted in the shifting sand of human pride, while my faith rests on the immutable rock of sovereign grace. Eternal salvation is not a cooperative venture between God and the creature. It is entirely of the Lord from election to glorification.

I will ask you one final time to stop running. Drop the philosophical clichés about robots, look at the page, and answer the text: Why did Christ say they could not believe because God hardened them?
 
If Grace can be resisted then you have refuted your own position in post #5475
I like how you provided a link. That was just great! :)

I don't know; maybe it's semantics. But the language of “irresistible grace,” at least to my ears, suggests an overwhelming force—something like being swept away by a rip tide or knocked over by a powerful wave. In that model, grace works by overpowering resistance. But the way I understand Scripture, God’s grace doesn’t function as coercion; it functions as healing. The problem in the human heart is not that we cannot believe but that we will not—a moral unwillingness rooted in hardness, blindness, and distortion. So when God acts in grace, He doesn’t force belief; He restores sight, softens hardness, and heals the will so that believing becomes genuinely possible and genuinely ours. In that sense, grace is not an irresistible shove but a restorative work that frees a person to respond.

When God heals a person’s eyes and heart, faith inevitably follows—not because they are forced, but because healed sight recognizes reality. A restored heart sees Christ as He truly is: the beautiful, trustworthy Lord and the sufficient Savior. In Scripture, God’s saving work is never partial or fragile; He does not begin healing and then abandon the patient. His grace carries the work to completion, and those whom He sets apart as holy—His saints—are preserved by His ongoing care. That is why belief and perseverance always accompany God’s healing grace: not because grace is an irresistible shove, but because God’s salvation is a faithful, unfailing restoration that brings a person all the way home.


As well Romans 9 is not a thesis by Paul on God's determinism for individual salvation when read in it's entirety, in context.

“Gentiles, who did not strive for righteousness, have attained it, that is, righteousness through faith; but Israel, who did strive for the righteousness that is based on the law, did not succeed in fulfilling that law. Why not? Because they did not strive for it on the basis of faith, but as if it were based on works” (vss. 30–32).

He gives mercy in response to faith and he hardens in response to unbelief. It’s not the other way around. People don’t have faith as a result of God having mercy on them, and people don’t have unbelief as a result of God hardening them.
TRUTH

Paul’s argument in Romans 9 unfolds from a single burden: explaining why God’s saving promises have not failed even though many in Israel do not believe. His answer is that salvation has never been grounded in human lineage, effort, or merit, but in God’s creative purpose—His sovereign freedom to shape the story of redemption. Paul moves through Israel’s history to show that God’s saving work has always operated at the level of divine authorship, not human achievement. Isaac, not Ishmael; Jacob, not Esau. These choices were made “before they had done anything good or bad,” which means the explanation cannot be human performance but God’s own purpose in creation.

This leads directly to Paul’s rhetorical question: “Is God unjust?” The objection is intuitive—if God chooses Jacob over Esau before their works, doesn’t that violate justice? Paul answers by reframing the category: God is not a judge evaluating human deeds; He is a Creator shaping vessels for His redemptive narrative. Justice, in this context, is not about rewarding human actions but about God faithfully carrying out His own purposes. Paul cites God’s words to Moses—“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy”—to show that mercy is not a wage earned but a divine act of restoration. The question is not whether God judges fairly, but whether God, as Creator, has the right to determine the role each person plays in His saving plan.

Paul’s potter‑and‑clay analogy makes this explicit. The potter is not unjust for shaping one vessel for honorable use and another for common use; he is exercising the prerogative of a creator. In the same way, God forms human lives within the narrative He is authoring. Some vessels display His mercy, others His patience, but all serve the revelation of His character. Salvation, therefore, is ultimately explicable not in terms of human decision or performance but in terms of God’s creative design—His sovereign authorship of the story of redemption.
 
Well you Calvinists can encourage each other or post flagrantly wrong opinions and distort what others say to your heart's content.

As with all other Calvinism threads in this forum, this one has reached it's conclusion with nothing but repeat on auto-dial and condemnation of God's good character so 279 pages has proven, yet again, that Calvinists will stoutly argue their doctrine, cannot prove it from scripture and relish the thought of hell's fires consuming those not as lucky as they are.

You say that because you have not yet been brought to the apex, peak and summit of spiritual Mount Sion, which summit is Christ as the Savior, and under whom is all of salvation, along with everything that accompanies salvation, and all of which intersects solely upon Him. However, you would place man on it right alongside of Christ.
 
As per my post....why are you pretending I had nothing to say? ++
I simply observed that you neither explained the "true" meaning of the text the way you understand it, nor reacted to my explanation. As I said, your argument took the form: "Your view can't be true because if it was true, I would have to change my view."
You say you are a teacher but you are not my teacher. I prefer those who understand the original languages and let the Bible speak for itself in the context of the people who actually wrote it.
I appreciate your commitment to letting Scripture speak in its own context and to paying attention to the original languages—that’s exactly the right instinct for good exegesis. Just to clarify, I never claimed to be your teacher; I’m simply participating in the discussion like everyone else. My point about 2 Peter 3:9 is not based on a theological system imposed on the text, but on Peter’s own argument in the passage. He is addressing the charge that Christ’s delay means God’s promise has failed, and he answers by saying that the delay is purposeful: God is patiently gathering all those who will repent. That reading arises from the flow of Peter’s argument, not from a preconceived theological agenda. In other words, I fully agree that we must let the biblical authors speak for themselves—and when we do, Peter is not making a universal statement about every individual without exception, but a pastoral explanation to his audience about why the Lord’s apparent slowness is actually His faithfulness.
 
I like how you provided a link. That was just great! :)

I don't know; maybe it's semantics. But the language of “irresistible grace,” at least to my ears, suggests an overwhelming force—something like being swept away by a rip tide or knocked over by a powerful wave. In that model, grace works by overpowering resistance. But the way I understand Scripture, God’s grace doesn’t function as coercion; it functions as healing. The problem in the human heart is not that we cannot believe but that we will not—a moral unwillingness rooted in hardness, blindness, and distortion. So when God acts in grace, He doesn’t force belief; He restores sight, softens hardness, and heals the will so that believing becomes genuinely possible and genuinely ours. In that sense, grace is not an irresistible shove but a restorative work that frees a person to respond.

When God heals a person’s eyes and heart, faith inevitably follows—not because they are forced, but because healed sight recognizes reality. A restored heart sees Christ as He truly is: the beautiful, trustworthy Lord and the sufficient Savior. In Scripture, God’s saving work is never partial or fragile; He does not begin healing and then abandon the patient. His grace carries the work to completion, and those whom He sets apart as holy—His saints—are preserved by His ongoing care. That is why belief and perseverance always accompany God’s healing grace: not because grace is an irresistible shove, but because God’s salvation is a faithful, unfailing restoration that brings a person all the way home.




Paul’s argument in Romans 9 unfolds from a single burden: explaining why God’s saving promises have not failed even though many in Israel do not believe. His answer is that salvation has never been grounded in human lineage, effort, or merit, but in God’s creative purpose—His sovereign freedom to shape the story of redemption. Paul moves through Israel’s history to show that God’s saving work has always operated at the level of divine authorship, not human achievement. Isaac, not Ishmael; Jacob, not Esau. These choices were made “before they had done anything good or bad,” which means the explanation cannot be human performance but God’s own purpose in creation.

This leads directly to Paul’s rhetorical question: “Is God unjust?” The objection is intuitive—if God chooses Jacob over Esau before their works, doesn’t that violate justice? Paul answers by reframing the category: God is not a judge evaluating human deeds; He is a Creator shaping vessels for His redemptive narrative. Justice, in this context, is not about rewarding human actions but about God faithfully carrying out His own purposes. Paul cites God’s words to Moses—“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy”—to show that mercy is not a wage earned but a divine act of restoration. The question is not whether God judges fairly, but whether God, as Creator, has the right to determine the role each person plays in His saving plan.

Paul’s potter‑and‑clay analogy makes this explicit. The potter is not unjust for shaping one vessel for honorable use and another for common use; he is exercising the prerogative of a creator. In the same way, God forms human lives within the narrative He is authoring. Some vessels display His mercy, others His patience, but all serve the revelation of His character. Salvation, therefore, is ultimately explicable not in terms of human decision or performance but in terms of God’s creative design—His sovereign authorship of the story of redemption.

The link obviously was of no use, it is a real challenge to have people amend their interpretations once they adopt to the divine determinism doctrine regarding election, salvation and service.

Oh well, carry on, as I said many times, having escaped this erroneous interpretation...... it is a doctrine that is detrimental to the Christian walk because it is not built on the true nature of God.
 
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The link obviously was of no use, it is a real challenge to have people amend their interpretations once they adopt to the divine determinism doctrine regarding election, salvation and service.

Oh well, carry on, as I said many times, having escaped this erroneous interpretation...... it is a doctrine that is detrimental to the Christian walk because it is not built on the true nature of God.
Really? How does my view contradict the nature of God?
 
The link obviously was of no use, it is a real challenge to have people amend their interpretations once they adopt to the divine determinism doctrine regarding election, salvation and service.

Oh well, carry on, as I said many times, having escaped this erroneous interpretation...... it is a doctrine that is detrimental to the Christian walk because it is not built on the true nature of God.
Okay, let me put it this way.

The story of Joseph beautifully illustrates the sovereignty of God. From a human perspective, every character acts out of his own motives—Joseph’s brothers driven by jealousy, Potiphar by anger, the cupbearer by forgetfulness. Yet from the divine perspective, each freely chosen action becomes a thread God weaves into His larger purpose. What looks like betrayal, slavery, and imprisonment is actually God orchestrating events so that Joseph will be in exactly the right place at the right time to preserve many lives. Human choices are real, but God’s providence is deeper; the narrative shows that He governs history without canceling human agency.

This truth is meant to be good news. Paul isn’t raising the theme of God’s sovereignty to spark fear or fatalism, but to anchor our confidence. If God could take the tangled motives and imperfect choices of human beings and still accomplish His saving purpose in Joseph’s life, then we can rest our trust in that same power at work for us. Paul wants believers to know that beneath all the shifting circumstances of life stands a God whose wisdom and strength never fail, and that is why our hope is secure.
 
GWH, your response is exactly what I expected: total capitulation disguised as righteous indignation. When presented with the raw, uncompromising text of Holy Writ, you couldn't produce a single verse to defend your position. Instead, you retreated into human philosophy, threw an emotional tantrum, and hurled labels like "absurd," "blasphemous," and "heretical." Calling God’s sovereign truth a "TULIP" does not erase the words from your Bible.

Let's address your philosophical redefinition of sovereignty. You claim a sovereign God must have the freedom to "limit His own power" to accommodate human free will. Think about the logical disaster of that statement. If God must limit His own power and desires to save everyone, yet millions perish in hell, then human willpower is ultimately stronger than God's desire. That doesn't make God sovereign; it makes man the supreme deity of his own salvation, while your god sits on the sidelines hoping someone chooses him. The true God of Scripture declares, "My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure" (Isaiah 46:10), and He "worketh all things after the counsel of his own will" (Ephesians 1:11). He does not ask permission from the clay.

You completely dodged the logic of the text because you have no answer for it:
  1. John 12:39-40: The text does not say they would not believe; it says point-blank, "Therefore they could not believe, because... He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart." You claim my view makes humans "robots," but the Apostle John says their inability to believe was the direct result of God's judicial blinding. Are you calling the Holy Spirit "heretical" for writing those words?
  2. John 10:26: Christ told the religious elites, "Ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep." Your theology demands that a man believes in order to become a sheep. Christ states the exact opposite: their lack of faith was proof they were never among His chosen flock to begin with. The sheep belong to the Father, are given to the Son, and are quickened by the Spirit.
You tell me to "dodge your logic at my own eternal risk," but your logic is rooted in the shifting sand of human pride, while my faith rests on the immutable rock of sovereign grace. Eternal salvation is not a cooperative venture between God and the creature. It is entirely of the Lord from election to glorification.

I will ask you one final time to stop running. Drop the philosophical clichés about robots, look at the page, and answer the text: Why did Christ say they could not believe because God hardened them?

Well, fewer folks go to hell per MFWism than per TULIPism,
and per MFW the sinner is to blame, whereas per TULIP the onus is on God.

I am not dodging anything but rather discerning that we are looping, saying nothing new, and we should not argue.
Therefore, happy trails for now!
 
Well, fewer folks go to hell per MFWism than per TULIPism,
and per MFW the sinner is to blame, whereas per TULIP the onus is on God.

I am not dodging anything but rather discerning that we are looping, saying nothing new, and we should not argue.
Therefore, happy trails for now!

The flaw in that argument is the assumption that judgment and mercy operate on the same basis. They do not. Judgment is always grounded in what sinners deserve, but mercy is never grounded in what anyone deserves. God does not send people to hell because they “failed to convert,” as if salvation were a test they didn’t pass. People go to hell because they are guilty, and those who are saved are not rescued because they became innocent—they are rescued in spite of their guilt. If salvation depended on a human choice, then that choice would become the basis of deserving eternal life. But Scripture insists that eternal life is not a wage earned by a decision; it is mercy given to the undeserving. That is why the sinner is responsible for his judgment, and God alone is responsible for salvation.
 
Well, fewer folks go to hell per MFWism than per TULIPism,
and per MFW the sinner is to blame, whereas per TULIP the onus is on God.

I am not dodging anything but rather discerning that we are looping, saying nothing new, and we should not argue.
Therefore, happy trails for now!
GWH, running away under the guise of "happy trails" is a time-honored tradition for those who cannot face the words on the page. You claim we are "looping," but the only loop here is your continuous circle around the text to avoid reading it. You chose to wave the white flag because you cannot answer why Christ explicitly stated people could not believe because God hardened them.

However, your parting comments completely expose the unscriptural foundation of your entire theology:

First,
your claim that "fewer folks go to hell per MFWism than per TULIPism" is a theological and mathematical farce. In your free-will system, God desires to save every single human being, yet millions upon millions die in their sins and go to hell anyway. That means your god is a massive failure who gets out-willed by the creature 90% of the time. In the true biblical framework of sovereign grace, Christ actually saves every single soul He intended to save. Not a single drop of His blood was wasted. He loses none of His sheep (John 10:28). My God accomplishes 100% of His redemptive purpose, while your god's desires are thwarted by the dirt he created.

Second, you claim that under your system "the sinner is to blame." Newsflash, GWH: the sinner is to blame in both systems! The difference is that my Bible says man is blamed because he is born totally depraved, corrupt, and in active, voluntary rebellion against a holy God. God does not force innocent people to sin; He judicially hardens those who already freely love their darkness (John 3:19). Your system, however, blames the sinner for failing to perform a spiritual work (saving faith) that a spiritually dead corpse has no capacity to perform (Ephesians 2:1).

You can sign off and retreat to safety now. But let the record of this thread show that when faced with the raw, uncompromising testimony of John 10 and John 12, your free-will philosophy had absolutely nothing to say to the words on the page.
The Son of God declares: "Ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep."

Human pride declares: "Happy trails!"

I’ll stand on the words of Christ.


 
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