Calvinism vs. Arminianism?
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U
As to the idea of God "wills" everything in the universe, I wonder if people study the following Scriptures and come to that conclusion:
Luke 7:29-30 - "29 And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John. 30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel [G1012 - boulēn] of God against [as to / unto] themselves, being not baptized [having not been baptized] of him."
--G1012 - boulēn - used also in Ephesians 1:11, the verse Calvinists use to say "no one can reject/resist" THIS, God's decreed [determined-plan] will [G1012]... yet Luke 7:30 clearly says the Pharisees and lawyers "rejected the boulēn G1012 of God..." (which, for that time then in existence, the decreed-will of God was: "the baptism of John").
The point being, they did indeed "reject the boulēn G1012 of God". Something that Calvinists say is impossible.
From Bible Hub, quoting...
Definition: counsel, deliberate wisdom, decree.
HELPS Word-studies
1012 boulḗ – properly, a resolved plan, used particularly of the immutable aspect of God's plan – purposefully arranging all physical circumstances, which guarantees every scene of life works to His eternal purpose.
This level of God's plan (1012 /boulḗ) demonstrates He is the Lord of history, i.e. always in charge!
[1012 (boulḗ) is more than God's immutable plan of physical circumstances. It always also includes the Lord's purpose in them – and hence arranging all the physical scenes of history before creation (Ps 139:16; Jn 1:3).]
[and]
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 1014 boúlomai – to plan with full resolve (determination). See 1012 (boulē).
1014 /boúlomai ("resolutely plan") is a strong term that underlines the predetermined (and determined) intention driving the planning (wishing, resolving). In contrast, 2309 (thélō) focuses on the desire ("wishfulness") behind making an offer (cf. TDNT, 1, 629).
[While God's "thelō-offers" can be rejected (see 2309 /thélō), His 1014 /boúlomai ("planning") always works out His purpose, especially in conjunction with presetting the physical scenes of history.]
-end quoting
They clearly "rejected the boulēn G1012 of God," according to that text.
One might think to answer, well they are just doing what comes naturally (to natural man), but that is to miss the point. The point is, Calvinists say that "no one can reject/resist His 'boule / boulen [G1012]' will (that is to say, His 'decreed' will)." But Luke 7:30 says these clearly did so.
And I agree with those saying that "Calvinism" and "Arminianism" are NOT the only options.
Luke 7:29-30 - "29 And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John. 30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel [G1012 - boulēn] of God against [as to / unto] themselves, being not baptized [having not been baptized] of him."
--G1012 - boulēn - used also in Ephesians 1:11, the verse Calvinists use to say "no one can reject/resist" THIS, God's decreed [determined-plan] will [G1012]... yet Luke 7:30 clearly says the Pharisees and lawyers "rejected the boulēn G1012 of God..." (which, for that time then in existence, the decreed-will of God was: "the baptism of John").
The point being, they did indeed "reject the boulēn G1012 of God". Something that Calvinists say is impossible.
From Bible Hub, quoting...
Definition: counsel, deliberate wisdom, decree.
HELPS Word-studies
1012 boulḗ – properly, a resolved plan, used particularly of the immutable aspect of God's plan – purposefully arranging all physical circumstances, which guarantees every scene of life works to His eternal purpose.
This level of God's plan (1012 /boulḗ) demonstrates He is the Lord of history, i.e. always in charge!
[1012 (boulḗ) is more than God's immutable plan of physical circumstances. It always also includes the Lord's purpose in them – and hence arranging all the physical scenes of history before creation (Ps 139:16; Jn 1:3).]
[and]
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 1014 boúlomai – to plan with full resolve (determination). See 1012 (boulē).
1014 /boúlomai ("resolutely plan") is a strong term that underlines the predetermined (and determined) intention driving the planning (wishing, resolving). In contrast, 2309 (thélō) focuses on the desire ("wishfulness") behind making an offer (cf. TDNT, 1, 629).
[While God's "thelō-offers" can be rejected (see 2309 /thélō), His 1014 /boúlomai ("planning") always works out His purpose, especially in conjunction with presetting the physical scenes of history.]
-end quoting
They clearly "rejected the boulēn G1012 of God," according to that text.
One might think to answer, well they are just doing what comes naturally (to natural man), but that is to miss the point. The point is, Calvinists say that "no one can reject/resist His 'boule / boulen [G1012]' will (that is to say, His 'decreed' will)." But Luke 7:30 says these clearly did so.
And I agree with those saying that "Calvinism" and "Arminianism" are NOT the only options.
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I'm not one of these proud arrogant types who pretends to know why God does everything He does. His ways are so far above ours that you wouldn't be able to process the answer if it was given to you.
Everyone needs to understand what they actually are, most Christians are great mysteries to themselves. So how can one who doesn't even know who he is ask why God does what He does. God will eventually reveal many things but you can spend eternity learning about Him and there would be infinitely much more to learn.
The problem most Christians have is they demand to know the answers to things they are not equipped to process.
Everyone needs to understand what they actually are, most Christians are great mysteries to themselves. So how can one who doesn't even know who he is ask why God does what He does. God will eventually reveal many things but you can spend eternity learning about Him and there would be infinitely much more to learn.
The problem most Christians have is they demand to know the answers to things they are not equipped to process.
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U
Agreed...
like I said, I used to have Calvinist leanings because I let myself be indoctrinated that way, then I realized we do not have to have a sewed up system, because even a system with all the answers can be wrong, and I also realized how harsh and unloving the Calvinistic God was and it was making me that way.
There are more scriptural ways but it is up to you to search them out.
I think they are both right. God can take control of your will in the sense if it is to help you sometimes, but He does not take the totality of your will away from you. If humans did not have freewill, and God decided what we now do before the world began, We would not be account for anything we have done. We didn't write this play called life. We would all be puppets on a stage with God giving us the voices and actions to do with any control on our own. This is elementary belief that is slowly becoming outdated.
You sure do fling the word choose around alot. You're kinda contradicting yourself in more than a few of your posts. Like in this one. It's what is called a non sequitur. If God wills it and it's predetermined it's still a choice? Huh? That's not what choice means. You may want to pick a different word. and btw, not all non-Christians do evil all the time.
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I want to thank you for posting this. I must admit I have never came across this and I’m pretty sure many others have not either. Wether or not others will admit it or look at this is another subject but the one thing I will say that this is not the final word because this was written by man and came from the minds of men which can not be fully trusted. Sure these confessions can help but again they are not the final authority the Bible alone and in its entirety is the final word.