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kaylagrl
Guest
So this is what I dislike about tv preachers. I agree God is just,I believe we sin. I believe one day He will pour out His wrath.But Jesus took our sins on Him,that was not Gods wrath on His Son,Jesus willingly took on the sins of the world. To say God poured out His wrath on His Son to me is an untrue statement. I dont agree with the Jesus that is being preached today,because He is not being preached in balance. We now preach Jesus is just a big teddy bear of love and I dont agree with that either. I do believe Jesus longs to have a personal relationship with us.No,He does not need us be He created us to have a relationship with Him. The Bible says God use to walk with Adam in the garden and I believe He longs for that relationship again.
Yet the Lord longs to be gracious to you;therefore he will rise up to show you compassion.
37O Jerusalem,Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her,how often I have longed to gather your children together,as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings,but you were unwilling!
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Ariel82
Guest
I was making an example of your post, that you too try and teach what you don't believe in and if you ask others to do it, you should also.
.I know someone will accuse me of hyprocrisy. But the difference is I am repeating what others have told me,they,believe and freely admit to not understanding their position.
That way if they say, no that's not what I meanr,they can elaborate instead of get mad and yell that they are being misrepresented.
Conversation:
Someone speaks.
Next person rephrase what they think is being said, maybe say if they agree or disagree.
Other person say "yes that is what I said" or "no this is what i,mean" and tries to explain.
Takes two to try and communicate ideas and get a really understanding of what the other person is saying.
Hi Ariel,
In case you missed it and I'm not saying you did,the article talked about Wesley believing in prevenient grace which allows a person to choose or not choose God.
Is that what you are questioning?
My understanding is that God gives us the grace to know Him, His goodness and mercy and to know our own sin that has caused separation from a Holy God. It's our visitation from God.
And in that moment of prevenient grace, we have the ability to say yes to salvation or no and reject God to our own detriment. I don't know if that's an accurate understanding of prevenient grace or not, so now I'm supposing it's my turn to turn to GOOGLE.
This idea is never presented in scripture. Prevenient grace is a misunderstanding of common grace. Saving grace is never resisted.
This idea of prevenient grace giving everyone a choice goes contrary to Jesus' own words and if reconciled with Jesus' words leads only to universalism or makes Jesus a liar. To say that God gives everyone a faith to believe is to say Jesus fails in his promise of raising up all those up that the Father has drawn.
35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
Jesus makes a point here that they have seen him and don't believe because only those the Father has given to him will come to him. If God draws all men, Jesus is obligated to save all those drawn:
43 Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— 46 not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father.
Two choices here. Either God draws all men and grants all men faith, which obligates Jesus to save every last man, woman, and child (universalism), or the alternative, Jesus is lying.
The view you present is Pelagian and not biblical.
From gotquestions.org:
Prevenient grace is a phrase used to describe the grace given by God that precedes the act of a sinner exercising saving faith in Jesus Christ. The term prevenient comes from a Latin word that meant ”to come before, to anticipate.” By definition, every theological system that affirms the necessity of God’s grace prior to a sinner’s conversion teaches a type of prevenient grace. The Reformed doctrine of irresistible grace is a type of prevenient grace, as is common grace.
However, when the phrase “prevenient grace” is used in theological discussions, it is used in a specific way. In the context of the on-going Calvinism vs. Arminianism debate, prevenient grace is referred to in order to object to the Calvinist doctrine of irresistible grace. This is the reason why, in both modern and historic times, it has also been called “resistible grace” or “pre-regenerating grace.” Since denying the necessity of God’s grace prior to a sinner’s conversion is clearly against biblical teaching, the non-Calvinist theological systems have to affirm a doctrine of grace that precedes a person’s exercising of saving faith. Since non-Calvinists do not believe the saving grace of God always results in the sinner coming to Christ, Christians down through the ages have referred to a type of grace they call prevenient. Simply put, prevenient grace is the grace of God given to individuals that releases them from their bondage to sin and enables them to come to Christ in faith but does not guarantee that the sinner will actually do so. Thus, the efficacy of the enabling grace of God is determined not by God but by man.
Prevenient grace is a phrase used to describe the grace given by God that precedes the act of a sinner exercising saving faith in Jesus Christ. The term prevenient comes from a Latin word that meant ”to come before, to anticipate.” By definition, every theological system that affirms the necessity of God’s grace prior to a sinner’s conversion teaches a type of prevenient grace. The Reformed doctrine of irresistible grace is a type of prevenient grace, as is common grace.
However, when the phrase “prevenient grace” is used in theological discussions, it is used in a specific way. In the context of the on-going Calvinism vs. Arminianism debate, prevenient grace is referred to in order to object to the Calvinist doctrine of irresistible grace. This is the reason why, in both modern and historic times, it has also been called “resistible grace” or “pre-regenerating grace.” Since denying the necessity of God’s grace prior to a sinner’s conversion is clearly against biblical teaching, the non-Calvinist theological systems have to affirm a doctrine of grace that precedes a person’s exercising of saving faith. Since non-Calvinists do not believe the saving grace of God always results in the sinner coming to Christ, Christians down through the ages have referred to a type of grace they call prevenient. Simply put, prevenient grace is the grace of God given to individuals that releases them from their bondage to sin and enables them to come to Christ in faith but does not guarantee that the sinner will actually do so. Thus, the efficacy of the enabling grace of God is determined not by God but by man.
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Ariel82
Guest
IOW they are god. God must bow to their ideologies as they put demands upon His person as to what He can do that they will accept as "fair". God is on trial, they are the judge, jury and prosecution.
So prevenient grace is the Light that lighteth every man that comes into the world. It is the light that those who love their evil deeds turn from.
Saving grace comes from Gods word and the Holy Spirit. Saving grace is the Light that men turn to when they see the condemnation God has pronounced on their sin.
These things should be evident if we can progress past the innate need to label our theology. Just take God at His word and rejoice in Christ Jesus.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
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Ariel82
Guest
Our Wesleyan Heritage - The United Methodist Church
Prevenient grace allows us to do good according to the Law (giving mankind a relationship like God had with Israel in the Old Covenant), but does not mention Jesus and what He did on the cross.
Prevenient grace allows us to do good according to the Law (giving mankind a relationship like God had with Israel in the Old Covenant), but does not mention Jesus and what He did on the cross.
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Ariel82
Guest
I have never heard the term "Prevenient grace" used in such a manner.
The Light is Jesus. Every man is given a soul or the breath of life from God that yearns for union with God and His will.
Some turn from their inner light and allow their souls to die, but Jesus can breath life into dead bones.
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Ariel82
Guest
Hi Forthangel,
Yeah, I know you would not agree.
All the Father gives to Jesus will come to Him means to me that those who answer the call are the ones that the Father gives to Jesus. To those who hear and receive the truth and repent are those who receive the Lord His way. It's by grace through faith.
I know of those who know God is God, but they choose to reject Him because they love their sinful lifestyle and don't want to serve God in holiness and righteousness. They still desire to serve wickedness and continue on in sin. They were invited to come, they had the ability to say yes through God's prevenient grace, but they decided to go their own way.
God said, Ezekiel 18:23: "Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign Lord. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?"
Jesus wept over Jerusalem. Matthew 23:37: "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing." The Lord wanted to save His people, but they were not willing.
There is no choice in being dead in trespass and sin. The only choice is to be born again or remain dead in trespass and sin.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
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Depleted
Guest
You just mentioned (as in just before this post, not as in a moment ago for you now), that you like to see what people have in common.
Soooo, that phrase "strawman argument" reminds you of someone burning a scarecrow too? I thought that was my image alone. lol
Free will. Agree with you in what you believe, but it goes past that. We sin. We usually choose to sin because sin is a simple concept after Jesus showed us what love is. Love is loving God fully and others as ourselves. That makes sin loving ourselves first.
And with that definition, when do we first sin, even having that moral code implanted into us? As babies. Babies are born with needs, and the only way they get those needs met is to cry. It doesn't take long for babies to figure out crying not only gets their needs met, it gets their wants met. Wanting is loving self. I watched a baby do this.
My cousin did a baby-move and accidentally flung her bottle away. She was flustered and cried. I soothed her, chuckled so she would chuckle, and got the bottle quickly. She got laughter for flinging the bottle. It was great. She got attention from big cousin. So, she flung it again and again to laugh at me running for it. She needed the bottle for fluids. She wanted attention. I was already giving her attention, but she wanted more.
You asked if babies can go to hell, and I answered honestly, I don't know. God didn't give me the list. He saves people from what we deserve. That includes babies. He doesn't save everyone. I have no idea if he chooses babies every time or not, but I have no doubt babies are born with his moral code and still go for sin. When do they do this? No idea. They can't speak yet to ask them when they're crying, "What do you want?" (And I would very much like it if they could talk. lol)
Free will. I already told the lion's story. I don't think we are merely blinded. We're deaf, dumb, and numb too. Matter of fact, we're dead in sin. Lazerus was regenerated. (In fiction, Frankenstein's monster was regenerated.) He didn't get a say if he wanted to live again. He did nothing to earn the right to live again. And yet, God in his mercy gave him that.
I believe in free agency -- the thing that has Man do whatever he chooses to do. To many, they think that is "free will." I've got free agency. I didn't have to, but I did change my garden around. I don't have free will, because I cannot will myself to swim down into the Mariano Trench. (Deepest part of the ocean.) I can choose a whole bunch of things. I just cannot choose to do that which is outside of my nature. And to not sin is outside my nature without God implanting that Agape love into me.
No, not merging the two. Prevenient grace gives the ability to be free to choose yes or no. Because we are slaves to sin, God gives prevenient grace that frees us at that time to respond to the gospel. It comes before the saving grace.
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Ariel82
Guest
You make the false assumption that i believe that if someone will keep the Law perfectly they can earn eternal life.
I don't.
Even men found blameless under the Law don't get into heaven without faith in the Savior and God's mercy and grace.
The promises for keeping the Law is not eternal life
,but blessings for this current life and current world.
No, it doesn't. Jesus refutes it. The only way to have a choice is to be drawn by God or to be gifted faith that would allow one to be saved. From your view, this means all are drawn, or all are granted this type of faith, which by Jesus' own words obligates him to save everyone who is drawn or given this ability to believe. The only conclusion is that either Jesus will save all men since all men must be drawn and given a choice, or Jesus is lying.