Can Salvation be lost??

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starfield said:
t dispensation
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Matt777 said:
Perseverance is necessary for final salvation, yet all true saints will persevere because we are kept by the power of God. This is the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints which is, in my view, the best way to accommodate the variety of verses found on this topic. There are numerous scriptures making the point that salvation is eternal, that Jesus will not lose even a single one of his sheep, that his sheep will never perish, that we are kept by the power of God, etc.

However the bible is also full of warning about not falling away. I think these are here because, within every church, in that era and this one, there are false converts. False converts can be discovered because they fall away. Only the true sheep stay and abide. I think these warning are given to illuminate the need for repentance in those who falsely claim Christ, and to encourage those who are true by means of revealing the enduring nature of their faith.

Here's the problem with the idea that salvation can be lost; it would mean we work for our salvation. If we could lose our salvation, then we are not saved at the moment we repent and believe, we are saved if we make it to the end. Therefore we have to work our tails off and hopefully make it to the end, and hopefully be righteous enough to be saved. Hence, self-righteousness. If this were true, those who make it could boast, because they held on and kept on in righteousness. If salvation depended on human effort, or holding on in any way, then salvation would be of man and not all of God. This is a serious error.

"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”
- John 6:37-40

Jesus Christ came to do the will of the Father, and he will do it. None of his sheep will be lost.

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand."
- John 10:27-28

Again, none of his sheep will perish. I don't think he could have stated it any more plainly.

"who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."
- 1 Peter 1:5

What is the nature of this faith?

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;"
- Ephesians 2:8

So we are protected by the power of God through faith, and this faith is itself a gift of God. God gives us an enduring faith, a persevering faith.

But what of those who were 'Christian' but fell away and became, say, atheists? Did they lose their salvation?

"They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us."
- 1 John 2:19

Again, one who is truly in Christ endures, abides, and perseveres.

Now lets step back and take a big-picture look at the whole drama of salvation.

"and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified."
- Romans 8:30

This is an unbroken chain from predestination, that is being chosen of God in eternity past, to being glorified. No one slips through the cracks; no one is called but not justified, no one is justified but not sanctified, and no one is sanctified but not glorified. All of God's elect will be glorified.

To sum this up, all true saints will persevere in faith until the end and will enter into glory. This does not mean that one can live absolutely any way they like and have no fear of Hell. A child of God will bear fruit and will not walk in darkness. 1 John makes a clear delineation between the true sheep and the false converts. That's why I don't call this doctrine "eternal security" as some do; perseverance of the saints is the biblically accurate name for this truth. We are saved because we have a supernatural, enduring, persevering faith in Christ given by God. All who completely and finally 'fall away' never had this real faith to begin with, and any with a real faith who fall away will come back in repentance.

Salvation is all of grace, from start to finish. No human works, either in earning salvation or keeping it, have anything whatsoever to do with redemption. Christ bore our sins in his own body and died under the wrath of God, as a propitiation for the sins of all who would ever believe in him. To say one of these could lose their salvation would be to say that Christ died for nothing and did not propitiate the wrath of God for this sins of his people. On the cross, Christ cried out "It is Finished!". He was right. Salvation is a gift of God by grace through faith. No one given to Christ by the Father will be lost.
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We should also make no room for the sheep that wanders off, away from the flock, that the Good Shepherd has to go after (Lk 15:4-7), or for the prodigal son that goes out into that far country, spends all his substance on riotous living and after being bankrupt and with no where to turn remembers what he had in his father's house and is lead back through repentance and is completely restored with nothing left out and not even put on probation (Lk 15:11-32). Some could be out there for years not bearing any fruit and should we use the same verses on them as have been mentioned, 'they went out from us because they were not of us'. God is going to show us how shallow our understanding is about how much He delights in mercy (Mic 7:18) and His faithfulness to His saints He has redeemed with His own blood (Ps 89:1-5), by raising them up in the last days (Jn 6:39,40,44,54). Is there not joy in heaven in the presence of the angels when these things happen (Lk 15:7,10,32).
 
Amen. God's mercy is boundless indeed, and his love for us is unfathomable. Praise be to God! Let me just make a few points for those skeptical of POTS.

Is that sheep that wanders away not a sheep? Is that son that runs off from his father not his father's son? In the same way, is a child of God that runs off for a while not a child of God? God loves his children; he loves us more than any of us can even begin to understand. Again, the will of the Father is that not one of those he has given to Christ perish.

Christ goes after his sheep who go astray, and he finds them. He doesn't lose one of them. This picture of sheep and a shepherd is beautiful, it really puts the lie to this idea that salvation is of us. Who's responsibility is it to lead the sheep? The shepherd. The Lord Jesus Christ leads us to glory, and he will not let one of us run away completely, though we may wander off. The responsibility for our salvation is completely in God's hands, both in saving us in the first place and especially in keeping us.

I think this idea that man can lose his salvation, either by sin or doubt, just robs God of some of his glory. As if puny man can thwart the eternal purpose of God. Further, consider the high priestly prayer of Jesus. Remember he always lives to make intercession for us, so I guarantee you that he is praying like this everyday.

" I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You; for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me. I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours; and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them. I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are.While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled."
- John 17:6-12

Again, the responsibility for keeping us lays not in our hands but in the power and purpose of God the Father. Further, Judas didn't lose his salvation, he never had it, Jesus calls him the son of perdition. No, Christ is continually interceding for us, praying that the Father would KEEP US in his name. The whole purpose of the drama of redemption is to completely redeem God's elect people and conform them to the image of Christ.

If you believe salvation can be lost you are reducing the atoning work of Christ, the intercessory work of Christ, the grace of God, and/or the power of the Father. If Christ atoned for our sins, and propitiated the wrath of God, then no more wrath remains for us. If we could some how undo this, it would make Christ's atonement worthless. If we could undo our salvation, it would make Christ's intercessory work worthless.

It would also make the Christian life a kind of work you embark on to EARN salvation, because you have to live to a certain degree of righteousness or else you won't be saved. I actually stumbled across the AOG website and they called salvation a 'second chance'. This is almost heretical, and it makes salvation out to be a work of man in earning heaven. I understand that those who believe salvation can be lost have good intentions, but this teaching is incredibly close to works-salvation and is extremely dangerous.
 
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God's mercy is boundless, mattsevens, but.....


...'it' is not infinite. There is an end, there is no 'forever' when scripture says, 'where sin abounds, grace abounds more.'

This sentence does not include the superlative word or closure word, 'boundless.' God's Love overflows in those who want His Love, we MUST constantly fill up our cup by Loving Him and Loving others.
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Mattsevens: If salvation depended on human effort, or holding on in any way, then salvation would be of man and not all of God. This is a serious error

^^there is no freewill of man in what you are saying, mattsevens, and, this be of the MOST quintessential point of a man's life, CHOOSING Christ as Saviour and Lord , after, first , he having been CONVICTED and having REPENTED. Salvation TOTALLY depends on human effort, after GOD draws us to Him we must CHOOSE Him. 'whosoever' means CHOICE. And, Romans 10:13, 'Whoever (whosoever?) CALLS on the name of the Lord shall be saved.'


Yes! That man (or woman) is saved, but the complete unraveling of scripture pointing to it taking WORK to to WORK OUT YOUR SALVATION WITH FEAR AND TREMBLING is laced all throughout scripture in NT.
 
Mattsevens: If you believe salvation can be lost you are reducing the atoning work of Christ, the intercessory work of Christ, the grace of God, and/or the power of the Father. If Christ atoned for our sins, and propitiated the wrath of God, then no more wrath remains for us. If we could some how undo this, it would make Christ's atonement worthless. If we could undo our salvation, it would make Christ's intercessory work worthless

^^wrong, Mattsevens, how does one even get this thinking if in Christ, I dearky wonder, but, sigh, the Lord leads....
Christ's atonement and GIFT OF ETERNAL LIFE given unto those who believe ALWAS is THERE no matter what, Christ peeps, it is us who will NOT be THERE if we choose to not VALUE the atonement and not repent and receive Him and be saved.

There is the great Holy Spirit conviction laced in all this too, of course, IF one so desires to fully follow & HEED scripture. 'Course, judgment is,not being said in this graph, only Love :) , prayerfully given like the Father hasbgiven unto us :)
 
there is no freewill of man in what you are saying
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I do not believe in libertarian free will as you seem to, I can find no scriptural evidence to support it. I do believe we make choices, and we are accountable for our choices, but we make choices in accordance with our nature. Depraved sinners are not free to choose righteousness any more than a dog is free to become a cat. No sinner can come to Christ unless the Father draws them. And all he 'calls' are justified and all justified are glorified (Romans 8:30). The only ones who come to Christ are those who are effectually called by God, having been predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ from eternity past. God chose whom he would save from before the world began and predestined these to be called, justified, and glorified.

Salvation TOTALLY depends on human effort, after GOD draws us to Him we must CHOOSE Him
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"So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy."
- Romans 9:16

God has mercy on whom he will have mercy, he saves whomever he chooses to save. We don't choose God, God chooses us.

"You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you."
- John 15:16

Really this is bound up with election. If you don't believe in election, which I would imagine is hard because its found throughout the bible, old and new testaments, then I can see how you'd have a problem with POTS.

By the way, the "whosoevers" in no way contradict election. No one will call on the name of the Lord in sincerity for salvation unless they are the elect of God having been effectually called by the Holy Spirit. So yes, whoever earnestly desires to come to Christ for salvation can be and will be saved, but the reprobate will not desire this. A key way to differentiate the elect from the reprobate is their response to the gospel of Christ.

Romans 8:30 describes the whole drama of salvation from the big-picture view. God predestines his people from eternity past. He calls his people whom he has predestined. Having called his people, he justifies them in Christ. Having justified them, he glorifies them at the consummation of all things. There is no libertarian 'free will' involved here, though this does not happen against our will; rather the Spirit of God regenerates our hearts and gives us the very will to come to Christ for salvation.

WORK OUT YOUR SALVATION WITH FEAR AND TREMBLING is laced all throughout scripture in NT
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Right but this is urging those who profess Christ to make absolutely sure that they are in fact Christians. Test yourself to see if you are in the faith (2 Corinthians 13:5). This is why the whole of 1 John was written, to assure true Christians that they are in the body of Christ, and to convict false disciples of their need for the real thing. Working out your salvation does not mean working to earn salvation, it means making sure you are really saved.
 
iamsoandso said:
"can you un-earn a thing you did not deserve nor could not earn",,,
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No doubt we are saved by faith in Christ

Eph_2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

But can dead faith save you?

Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Can faith that you depart from save you?

Col_1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

1Ti_1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
 
Matt777 said:
I do not believe in libertarian free will as you seem to, I can find no scriptural evidence to support it. I do believe we make choices, and we are accountable for our choices, but we make choices in accordance with our nature. Depraved sinners are not free to choose righteousness any more than a dog is free to become a cat. No sinner can come to Christ unless the Father draws them. And all he 'calls' are justified and all justified are glorified (Romans 8:30). The only ones who come to Christ are those who are effectually called by God, having been predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ from eternity past. God chose whom he would save from before the world began and predestined these to be called, justified, and glorified.

ALL are drawn to Christ, we ALL get our chance, and, what we do is our CHOICE. Deprived man? Potty hogwash, mattsevens. ALL get a,choice to CHOOSE Christ, now, SOME God works more on , but, like you got ONE thing right, besides understanding, YES! we are DRAWN, but you misstep saying only 'eternity past,' and 'predestination' speaks to some. Reprobate? Potty hogwash. There are NO reprobates in Gid's eyes. ALL are called, Christ bro, that IS the only 'just' and 'perfect,' so 'that none should perish,' way of our Father, 'The Way, The Truth, and, The Life.' We, that includes ANY human who ANSWERS His 'drawing call.' :) Sure, smile, Christ peeps, I just did.

There is no pre-destrined, orchestrated order by God for those going into the new world (Heaven and Earth) when end times come.

I soo wished you understood the Love of God, for God is Love, and, only grace, only mercy. God has given EVERYONE THE SAME MEASURE OF FAITH AND WE ARE TO BUILD IT WITH CONFIDENCE AS HE LAYS OUT HIS PLAN FOR OUR LIFE. :) This is not yelling it is emphasizing, I do not yell, but I do EMPHASIZE The importance of undetstand the true character of our great God who is mercy, grace, Love, but, be not ye deceived by The Enemy, you CAN LOSE YOUR SALVATION.

What are you saying, here, too?

When I say, per scripture, 'We are to work out our OWN salvation with fear and trembling' is just, in your words, mattsevens, 'to find out if we are really saved.'

What, on God's green earth, does that quote part mean? ^^^



"So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy."
- Romans 9:16 This applies to God's sovereign control over all, like 911, when His divine purpose causes great change, this does change a man's life timeline but it by no means says God did not know man's death date, for God KNOWS all. He KNEW what we were intended to do for His great work for our life timeline before we were born; we,, of course, are given choices freely to either become His and follow His plan for us.

God has mercy on whom he will have mercy, he saves whomever he chooses to save. We don't choose God, God chooses us. And, GOD, through His true nature-which is Love, mercy, grace-chooses (draws) @LL of us, UNDERSTAND 'the circular'nature of ALL this Truth. And, yes, some humans are given more mercy than others, more grace, too, OUR faith GROWTH builds mercy/grace for us and OBEDIENCE. This is God's way, it is just, He is perfect in His ways shewing mercy. ]

"You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you."
- John 15:16 This refers to building our life and personal relationship with Christ. This has zip to do with salvation, except, yes, the 'not choose Me, but I chose you,' which refers to immediate initial act of salvation of Christ having drawn/dragged us to Him

Really this is bound up with election. If you don't believe in election, which I would imagine is hard because its found throughout the bible, old and new testaments, then I can see how you'd have a problem with POTS.

By the way, the "whosoevers" in no way contradict election. No one will call on the name of the Lord in sincerity for salvation unless they are the elect of God having been effectually called by the Holy Spirit. So yes, whoever earnestly desires to come to Christ for salvation can be and will be saved, but the reprobate will not desire this. A key way to differentiate the elect from the reprobate is their response to the gospel of Christ. We humans INDIVIDUALLY vote for Christ after He has drawn Himself unto us through a supernatural act(s) coming into our life at His appointed time of our life timeline.

Romans 8:30 describes the whole drama of salvation from the big-picture view. God predestines his people from eternity past. He calls his people whom he has predestined. Having called his people, he justifies them in Christ. Having justified them, he glorifies them at the consummation of all things. There is no libertarian 'free will' involved here, though this does not happen against our will; rather the Spirit of God regenerates our hearts and gives us the very will to come to Christ for salvation. Not happening against our will IS 'freewill.' Either it is, or, it isn't. Yes, you got two things right, when born of God we are regenerated, flesh dies, we are in Christ. But our temple CAN be left by the indwelling Christ in us.


Right but this is urging those who profess Christ to make absolutely sure that they are in fact Christians. Test yourself to see if you are in the faith (2 Corinthians 13:5). This is why the whole of 1 John was written, to assure true Christians that they are in the body of Christ, and to convict false disciples of their need for the real thing. Working out your salvation does not mean working to earn salvation, it means making sure you are really saved.
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Wrong. Working out your OWN salvation with fear and trembling means 'Working out your OWN salvation with fear and trembling.' Do NOT add to or take away from scripture. There is,nothing more to this verse than the very real Truth that God puts great emphasis on following Him, building your faith by helping the needy, giving to the poor, supporting businesses non-prifits that are doing His,good work/tithing your place worshipped/fed.

This last not to CONVICT you for Christ NEVER convicts His own, just disciplines we who have chosen Him, but, yes, do what you do as He will lead you, Christ peeps , we be sparrows and His eyes are on us ALL :)
 
Matt777 said:
I do not believe in libertarian free will as you seem to, I can find no scriptural evidence to support it. I do believe we make choices, and we are accountable for our choices, but we make choices in accordance with our nature. Depraved sinners are not free to choose righteousness any more than a dog is free to become a cat. No sinner can come to Christ unless the Father draws them. And all he 'calls' are justified and all justified are glorified (Romans 8:30). The only ones who come to Christ are those who are effectually called by God, having been predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ from eternity past. God chose whom he would save from before the world began and predestined these to be called, justified, and glorified.

ALL are drawn to Christ, we ALL get our chance, and, what we do is our CHOICE. Deprived man? Potty hogwash, mattsevens. ALL get a,choice to CHOOSE
GreenNnice said:
Christ, now, SOME God works more on , but, like you got ONE thing right, besides understanding, YES! we are DRAWN, but you misstep saying only 'eternity past,' and 'predestination' speaks to some. Reprobate? Potty hogwash. There are NO reprobates in Gid's eyes. ALL are called, Christ bro, that IS the only 'just' and 'perfect,' so 'that none should perish,' way of our Father, 'The Way, The Truth, and, The Life.' We, that includes ANY human who ANSWERS His 'drawing call.' :) Sure, smile, Christ peeps, I just did.

There is no pre-destrined, orchestrated order by God for those going into the new world (Heaven and Earth) when end times come.

I soo wished you understood the Love of God, for God is Love, and, only grace, only mercy. God has given EVERYONE THE SAME MEASURE OF FAITH AND WE ARE TO BUILD IT WITH CONFIDENCE AS HE LAYS OUT HIS PLAN FOR OUR LIFE. :) This is not yelling it is emphasizing, I do not yell, but I do EMPHASIZE The importance of undetstand the true character of our great God who is mercy, grace, Love, but, be not ye deceived by The Enemy, you CAN LOSE YOUR SALVATION.

What are you saying, here, too?
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GreenNnice said:
When I say, per scripture, 'We are to work out our OWN salvation with fear and trembling' is just, in your words, mattsevens, 'to find out if we are really saved.'

What, on God's green earth, does that quote part mean? ^^^
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"So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy."
- Romans 9:16 This applies to God's sovereign control over all, like 911, when His divine purpose causes great change, this does change a man's life timeline but it by no means says God did not know man's death date, for God KNOWS all. He KNEW what we were intended to do for His great work for our life timeline before we were born; we,, of course, are given choices freely to either become His and follow His plan for us.

God has mercy on whom he will have mercy, he saves whomever he chooses to save. We don't choose God, God chooses us. And, GOD, through His true nature-which is Love, mercy, grace-chooses (draws) @LL of us, UNDERSTAND 'the circular'nature of ALL this Truth. And, yes, some humans are given more mercy than others, more grace, too, OUR faith GROWTH builds mercy/grace for us and OBEDIENCE. This is God's way, it is just, He is perfect in His ways shewing mercy. ]

"You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you."
- John 15:16 This refers to building our life and personal relationship with Christ. This has zip to do with salvation, except, yes, the 'not choose Me, but I chose you,' which refers to immediate initial act of salvation of Christ having drawn/dragged us to Him

Really this is bound up with election. If you don't believe in election, which I would imagine is hard because its found throughout the bible, old and new testaments, then I can see how you'd have a problem with POTS.

By the way, the "whosoevers" in no way contradict election. No one will call on the name of the Lord in sincerity for salvation unless they are the elect of God having been effectually called by the Holy Spirit. So yes, whoever earnestly desires to come to Christ for salvation can be and will be saved, but the reprobate will not desire this. A key way to differentiate the elect from the reprobate is their response to the gospel of Christ. We humans INDIVIDUALLY vote for Christ after He has drawn Himself unto us through a supernatural act(s) coming into our life at His appointed time of our life timeline.

Romans 8:30 describes the whole drama of salvation from the big-picture view. God predestines his people from eternity past. He calls his people whom he has predestined. Having called his people, he justifies them in Christ. Having justified them, he glorifies them at the consummation of all things. There is no libertarian 'free will' involved here, though this does not happen against our will; rather the Spirit of God regenerates our hearts and gives us the very will to come to Christ for salvation. Not happening against our will IS 'freewill.' Either it is, or, it isn't. Yes, you got two things right, when born of God we are regenerated, flesh dies, we are in Christ. But our temple CAN be left by the indwelling Christ in us.


Right but this is urging those who profess Christ to make absolutely sure that they are in fact Christians. Test yourself to see if you are in the faith (2 Corinthians 13:5). This is why the whole of 1 John was written, to assure true Christians that they are in the body of Christ, and to convict false disciples of their need for the real thing. Working out your salvation does not mean working to earn salvation, it means making sure you are really saved.
Click to expand...
Wrong. Working out your OWN salvation with fear and trembling means 'Working out your OWN salvation with fear and trembling.' Do NOT add to or take away from scripture. There is,nothing more to this verse than the very real Truth that God puts great emphasis on following Him, building your faith by helping the needy, giving to the poor, supporting businesses non-prifits that are doing His,good work/tithing your place worshipped/fed.

This last not to CONVICT you for Christ NEVER convicts His own, just disciplines we who have chosen Him, but, yes, do what you do as He will lead you, Christ peeps , we be sparrows and His eyes are on us ALL :)
 
well then continue on to work in the acts of doing what you do not believe Christ gave you while you were not worthy,,,,seek to build a house you did not build,,,,,,ye are even more than Christ who can preserve grace after obtaining the grace given for falling on your face,,,,,,,,,,,pitty ye the second thump of death and hope you bounce back up to the blood that was shed at the cross after you were given grace,,,grace has a special meaning it means none of it came from the tips of your fingers,,,,,,,,,but the grace giver it came from his fingers and his whole heart,,,,,,,,there is only one way you can goof up grace,,,,,,the grace giver must stumble around and miss you,,,,,,,,,,,,,
 
iamsoandso said:
well then continue on to work in the acts of doing what you do not believe Christ gave you while you were not worthy,,,,seek to build a house you did not build,,,,,,ye are even more than Christ who can preserve grace after obtaining the grace given for falling on your face,,,,,,,,,,,pitty ye the second thump of death and hope you bounce back up to the blood that was shed at the cross after you were given grace,,,grace has a special meaning it means none of it came from the tips of your fingers,,,,,,,,,but the grace giver it came from his fingers and his whole heart,,,,,,,,there is only one way you can goof up grace,,,,,,the grace giver must stumble around and miss you,,,,,,,,,,,,,
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I dont deny we are saved by grace through faith

Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

But...

Heb_11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Heb_11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

Jas_2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Jas_2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

We have to live what we say we believe. What you do outwardly should reflect what you feel inwardly. None of us are perfect though and that's where grace abounds.
 
Originally Posted by iamsoandso "can you un-earn a thing you did not deserve nor could not earn",,,

yes, soandso, we CAN lose something we never earned.
All things are possible with God., this includes good things possible and bad. What God gives us by grace CAN be taken away by our self-acts to potty on His gift. Now, all sins are forgiveable (but blasphemy), but Christ says IF WE DENY HIM HE WILL DENY US.'

Nasb: If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us; 1 Timothy 2:12

We MUST endure that means SUFFER for His sake, living His life for us , there is NO grace free ride into Heaven. We must work!

Well said, Christ bro ! Vvvvvvv

No doubt we are saved by faith in Christ. ¥es, we are, but WHERE in scripture AFTER this does scripture tell us that is it?
I will tell you where , no 'where.'

Eph_2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

But can dead faith save you?

Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Can faith that you depart from save you?

Col_1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

1Ti_1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
 
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sanglina said:
Please share your thoughts on this with Biblical references (if possible). Ty!
Click to expand...

No. Salvation cannot be lost. That is a Christian can never lose his or her salvation. Now a Christian can lose many other things. Like their joy, their testimony, their character, their integrity, their health, their money, their rewards, and their millennial inheritance. But they can never lose their salvation since a Christian is sealed with the Holy Spirit in this dispensation known as the Church Age. Here are Biblical References:

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one. - John 10:27-30

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, - Ephesians 1:13

And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. - Ephesians 4:30
 
ChosenbyHim said:
No. Salvation cannot be lost. That is a Christian can never lose his or her salvation. Now a Christian can lose many other things. Like their joy, their testimony, their character, their integrity, their health, their money, their rewards, and their millennial inheritance. But they can never lose their salvation since a Christian is sealed with the Holy Spirit in this dispensation known as the Church Age. Here are Biblical References:

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one. - John 10:27-30

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, - Ephesians 1:13

And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. - Ephesians 4:30
Click to expand...

Where IN THIS VERSE is the finality, or, GUARANTEE of Salvation. The HOLY SPIRIT is assurity of salvation in our being 'sealed by the Holy Spirit,' and, by being with He in our temple we have assurance and confidence of our salvation but, by no means does being 'sealed by HS' explain in this verse that we are guaranteed salvation no matter what.
This is a warning of WHAT can happen IF we grieve the Holy Spirit. And, obviously, we can grieve the Holy Spirit or Paul wouldn't have said so to the Ephesians.
 
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