Can Salvation be lost??
- Thread starter sanglina
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
We should also make no room for the sheep that wanders off, away from the flock, that the Good Shepherd has to go after (Lk 15:4-7), or for the prodigal son that goes out into that far country, spends all his substance on riotous living and after being bankrupt and with no where to turn remembers what he had in his father's house and is lead back through repentance and is completely restored with nothing left out and not even put on probation (Lk 15:11-32). Some could be out there for years not bearing any fruit and should we use the same verses on them as have been mentioned, 'they went out from us because they were not of us'. God is going to show us how shallow our understanding is about how much He delights in mercy (Mic 7:18) and His faithfulness to His saints He has redeemed with His own blood (Ps 89:1-5), by raising them up in the last days (Jn 6:39,40,44,54). Is there not joy in heaven in the presence of the angels when these things happen (Lk 15:7,10,32).
M
Amen. God's mercy is boundless indeed, and his love for us is unfathomable. Praise be to God! Let me just make a few points for those skeptical of POTS.
Is that sheep that wanders away not a sheep? Is that son that runs off from his father not his father's son? In the same way, is a child of God that runs off for a while not a child of God? God loves his children; he loves us more than any of us can even begin to understand. Again, the will of the Father is that not one of those he has given to Christ perish.
Christ goes after his sheep who go astray, and he finds them. He doesn't lose one of them. This picture of sheep and a shepherd is beautiful, it really puts the lie to this idea that salvation is of us. Who's responsibility is it to lead the sheep? The shepherd. The Lord Jesus Christ leads us to glory, and he will not let one of us run away completely, though we may wander off. The responsibility for our salvation is completely in God's hands, both in saving us in the first place and especially in keeping us.
I think this idea that man can lose his salvation, either by sin or doubt, just robs God of some of his glory. As if puny man can thwart the eternal purpose of God. Further, consider the high priestly prayer of Jesus. Remember he always lives to make intercession for us, so I guarantee you that he is praying like this everyday.
" I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You; for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me. I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours; and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them. I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are.While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled."
- John 17:6-12
Again, the responsibility for keeping us lays not in our hands but in the power and purpose of God the Father. Further, Judas didn't lose his salvation, he never had it, Jesus calls him the son of perdition. No, Christ is continually interceding for us, praying that the Father would KEEP US in his name. The whole purpose of the drama of redemption is to completely redeem God's elect people and conform them to the image of Christ.
If you believe salvation can be lost you are reducing the atoning work of Christ, the intercessory work of Christ, the grace of God, and/or the power of the Father. If Christ atoned for our sins, and propitiated the wrath of God, then no more wrath remains for us. If we could some how undo this, it would make Christ's atonement worthless. If we could undo our salvation, it would make Christ's intercessory work worthless.
It would also make the Christian life a kind of work you embark on to EARN salvation, because you have to live to a certain degree of righteousness or else you won't be saved. I actually stumbled across the AOG website and they called salvation a 'second chance'. This is almost heretical, and it makes salvation out to be a work of man in earning heaven. I understand that those who believe salvation can be lost have good intentions, but this teaching is incredibly close to works-salvation and is extremely dangerous.
Is that sheep that wanders away not a sheep? Is that son that runs off from his father not his father's son? In the same way, is a child of God that runs off for a while not a child of God? God loves his children; he loves us more than any of us can even begin to understand. Again, the will of the Father is that not one of those he has given to Christ perish.
Christ goes after his sheep who go astray, and he finds them. He doesn't lose one of them. This picture of sheep and a shepherd is beautiful, it really puts the lie to this idea that salvation is of us. Who's responsibility is it to lead the sheep? The shepherd. The Lord Jesus Christ leads us to glory, and he will not let one of us run away completely, though we may wander off. The responsibility for our salvation is completely in God's hands, both in saving us in the first place and especially in keeping us.
I think this idea that man can lose his salvation, either by sin or doubt, just robs God of some of his glory. As if puny man can thwart the eternal purpose of God. Further, consider the high priestly prayer of Jesus. Remember he always lives to make intercession for us, so I guarantee you that he is praying like this everyday.
" I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You; for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me. I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours; and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them. I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are.While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled."
- John 17:6-12
Again, the responsibility for keeping us lays not in our hands but in the power and purpose of God the Father. Further, Judas didn't lose his salvation, he never had it, Jesus calls him the son of perdition. No, Christ is continually interceding for us, praying that the Father would KEEP US in his name. The whole purpose of the drama of redemption is to completely redeem God's elect people and conform them to the image of Christ.
If you believe salvation can be lost you are reducing the atoning work of Christ, the intercessory work of Christ, the grace of God, and/or the power of the Father. If Christ atoned for our sins, and propitiated the wrath of God, then no more wrath remains for us. If we could some how undo this, it would make Christ's atonement worthless. If we could undo our salvation, it would make Christ's intercessory work worthless.
It would also make the Christian life a kind of work you embark on to EARN salvation, because you have to live to a certain degree of righteousness or else you won't be saved. I actually stumbled across the AOG website and they called salvation a 'second chance'. This is almost heretical, and it makes salvation out to be a work of man in earning heaven. I understand that those who believe salvation can be lost have good intentions, but this teaching is incredibly close to works-salvation and is extremely dangerous.
Last edited:
G
God's mercy is boundless, mattsevens, but.....
...'it' is not infinite. There is an end, there is no 'forever' when scripture says, 'where sin abounds, grace abounds more.'
This sentence does not include the superlative word or closure word, 'boundless.' God's Love overflows in those who want His Love, we MUST constantly fill up our cup by Loving Him and Loving others.
_____)(_____
Mattsevens: If salvation depended on human effort, or holding on in any way, then salvation would be of man and not all of God. This is a serious error
^^there is no freewill of man in what you are saying, mattsevens, and, this be of the MOST quintessential point of a man's life, CHOOSING Christ as Saviour and Lord , after, first , he having been CONVICTED and having REPENTED. Salvation TOTALLY depends on human effort, after GOD draws us to Him we must CHOOSE Him. 'whosoever' means CHOICE. And, Romans 10:13, 'Whoever (whosoever?) CALLS on the name of the Lord shall be saved.'
Yes! That man (or woman) is saved, but the complete unraveling of scripture pointing to it taking WORK to to WORK OUT YOUR SALVATION WITH FEAR AND TREMBLING is laced all throughout scripture in NT.
...'it' is not infinite. There is an end, there is no 'forever' when scripture says, 'where sin abounds, grace abounds more.'
This sentence does not include the superlative word or closure word, 'boundless.' God's Love overflows in those who want His Love, we MUST constantly fill up our cup by Loving Him and Loving others.
_____)(_____
Mattsevens: If salvation depended on human effort, or holding on in any way, then salvation would be of man and not all of God. This is a serious error
^^there is no freewill of man in what you are saying, mattsevens, and, this be of the MOST quintessential point of a man's life, CHOOSING Christ as Saviour and Lord , after, first , he having been CONVICTED and having REPENTED. Salvation TOTALLY depends on human effort, after GOD draws us to Him we must CHOOSE Him. 'whosoever' means CHOICE. And, Romans 10:13, 'Whoever (whosoever?) CALLS on the name of the Lord shall be saved.'
Yes! That man (or woman) is saved, but the complete unraveling of scripture pointing to it taking WORK to to WORK OUT YOUR SALVATION WITH FEAR AND TREMBLING is laced all throughout scripture in NT.
G
Mattsevens: If you believe salvation can be lost you are reducing the atoning work of Christ, the intercessory work of Christ, the grace of God, and/or the power of the Father. If Christ atoned for our sins, and propitiated the wrath of God, then no more wrath remains for us. If we could some how undo this, it would make Christ's atonement worthless. If we could undo our salvation, it would make Christ's intercessory work worthless
^^wrong, Mattsevens, how does one even get this thinking if in Christ, I dearky wonder, but, sigh, the Lord leads....
Christ's atonement and GIFT OF ETERNAL LIFE given unto those who believe ALWAS is THERE no matter what, Christ peeps, it is us who will NOT be THERE if we choose to not VALUE the atonement and not repent and receive Him and be saved.
There is the great Holy Spirit conviction laced in all this too, of course, IF one so desires to fully follow & HEED scripture. 'Course, judgment is,not being said in this graph, only Love
, prayerfully given like the Father hasbgiven unto us
^^wrong, Mattsevens, how does one even get this thinking if in Christ, I dearky wonder, but, sigh, the Lord leads....
Christ's atonement and GIFT OF ETERNAL LIFE given unto those who believe ALWAS is THERE no matter what, Christ peeps, it is us who will NOT be THERE if we choose to not VALUE the atonement and not repent and receive Him and be saved.
There is the great Holy Spirit conviction laced in all this too, of course, IF one so desires to fully follow & HEED scripture. 'Course, judgment is,not being said in this graph, only Love
, prayerfully given like the Father hasbgiven unto us
M
I do not believe in libertarian free will as you seem to, I can find no scriptural evidence to support it. I do believe we make choices, and we are accountable for our choices, but we make choices in accordance with our nature. Depraved sinners are not free to choose righteousness any more than a dog is free to become a cat. No sinner can come to Christ unless the Father draws them. And all he 'calls' are justified and all justified are glorified (Romans 8:30). The only ones who come to Christ are those who are effectually called by God, having been predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ from eternity past. God chose whom he would save from before the world began and predestined these to be called, justified, and glorified.
"So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy."
- Romans 9:16
God has mercy on whom he will have mercy, he saves whomever he chooses to save. We don't choose God, God chooses us.
"You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you."
- John 15:16
Really this is bound up with election. If you don't believe in election, which I would imagine is hard because its found throughout the bible, old and new testaments, then I can see how you'd have a problem with POTS.
By the way, the "whosoevers" in no way contradict election. No one will call on the name of the Lord in sincerity for salvation unless they are the elect of God having been effectually called by the Holy Spirit. So yes, whoever earnestly desires to come to Christ for salvation can be and will be saved, but the reprobate will not desire this. A key way to differentiate the elect from the reprobate is their response to the gospel of Christ.
Romans 8:30 describes the whole drama of salvation from the big-picture view. God predestines his people from eternity past. He calls his people whom he has predestined. Having called his people, he justifies them in Christ. Having justified them, he glorifies them at the consummation of all things. There is no libertarian 'free will' involved here, though this does not happen against our will; rather the Spirit of God regenerates our hearts and gives us the very will to come to Christ for salvation.
Right but this is urging those who profess Christ to make absolutely sure that they are in fact Christians. Test yourself to see if you are in the faith (2 Corinthians 13:5). This is why the whole of 1 John was written, to assure true Christians that they are in the body of Christ, and to convict false disciples of their need for the real thing. Working out your salvation does not mean working to earn salvation, it means making sure you are really saved.
"So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy."
- Romans 9:16
God has mercy on whom he will have mercy, he saves whomever he chooses to save. We don't choose God, God chooses us.
"You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you."
- John 15:16
Really this is bound up with election. If you don't believe in election, which I would imagine is hard because its found throughout the bible, old and new testaments, then I can see how you'd have a problem with POTS.
By the way, the "whosoevers" in no way contradict election. No one will call on the name of the Lord in sincerity for salvation unless they are the elect of God having been effectually called by the Holy Spirit. So yes, whoever earnestly desires to come to Christ for salvation can be and will be saved, but the reprobate will not desire this. A key way to differentiate the elect from the reprobate is their response to the gospel of Christ.
Romans 8:30 describes the whole drama of salvation from the big-picture view. God predestines his people from eternity past. He calls his people whom he has predestined. Having called his people, he justifies them in Christ. Having justified them, he glorifies them at the consummation of all things. There is no libertarian 'free will' involved here, though this does not happen against our will; rather the Spirit of God regenerates our hearts and gives us the very will to come to Christ for salvation.
Right but this is urging those who profess Christ to make absolutely sure that they are in fact Christians. Test yourself to see if you are in the faith (2 Corinthians 13:5). This is why the whole of 1 John was written, to assure true Christians that they are in the body of Christ, and to convict false disciples of their need for the real thing. Working out your salvation does not mean working to earn salvation, it means making sure you are really saved.
C
No doubt we are saved by faith in Christ
Eph_2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
But can dead faith save you?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Can faith that you depart from save you?
Col_1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
1Ti_1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
Eph_2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
But can dead faith save you?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Can faith that you depart from save you?
Col_1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
1Ti_1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
G
I do not believe in libertarian free will as you seem to, I can find no scriptural evidence to support it. I do believe we make choices, and we are accountable for our choices, but we make choices in accordance with our nature. Depraved sinners are not free to choose righteousness any more than a dog is free to become a cat. No sinner can come to Christ unless the Father draws them. And all he 'calls' are justified and all justified are glorified (Romans 8:30). The only ones who come to Christ are those who are effectually called by God, having been predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ from eternity past. God chose whom he would save from before the world began and predestined these to be called, justified, and glorified.
ALL are drawn to Christ, we ALL get our chance, and, what we do is our CHOICE. Deprived man? Potty hogwash, mattsevens. ALL get a,choice to CHOOSE Christ, now, SOME God works more on , but, like you got ONE thing right, besides understanding, YES! we are DRAWN, but you misstep saying only 'eternity past,' and 'predestination' speaks to some. Reprobate? Potty hogwash. There are NO reprobates in Gid's eyes. ALL are called, Christ bro, that IS the only 'just' and 'perfect,' so 'that none should perish,' way of our Father, 'The Way, The Truth, and, The Life.' We, that includes ANY human who ANSWERS His 'drawing call.' Sure, smile, Christ peeps, I just did.
There is no pre-destrined, orchestrated order by God for those going into the new world (Heaven and Earth) when end times come.
I soo wished you understood the Love of God, for God is Love, and, only grace, only mercy. God has given EVERYONE THE SAME MEASURE OF FAITH AND WE ARE TO BUILD IT WITH CONFIDENCE AS HE LAYS OUT HIS PLAN FOR OUR LIFE. This is not yelling it is emphasizing, I do not yell, but I do EMPHASIZE The importance of undetstand the true character of our great God who is mercy, grace, Love, but, be not ye deceived by The Enemy, you CAN LOSE YOUR SALVATION.
What are you saying, here, too?
When I say, per scripture, 'We are to work out our OWN salvation with fear and trembling' is just, in your words, mattsevens, 'to find out if we are really saved.'
What, on God's green earth, does that quote part mean? ^^^
"So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy."
- Romans 9:16 This applies to God's sovereign control over all, like 911, when His divine purpose causes great change, this does change a man's life timeline but it by no means says God did not know man's death date, for God KNOWS all. He KNEW what we were intended to do for His great work for our life timeline before we were born; we,, of course, are given choices freely to either become His and follow His plan for us.
God has mercy on whom he will have mercy, he saves whomever he chooses to save. We don't choose God, God chooses us. And, GOD, through His true nature-which is Love, mercy, grace-chooses (draws) @LL of us, UNDERSTAND 'the circular'nature of ALL this Truth. And, yes, some humans are given more mercy than others, more grace, too, OUR faith GROWTH builds mercy/grace for us and OBEDIENCE. This is God's way, it is just, He is perfect in His ways shewing mercy. ]
"You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you."
- John 15:16 This refers to building our life and personal relationship with Christ. This has zip to do with salvation, except, yes, the 'not choose Me, but I chose you,' which refers to immediate initial act of salvation of Christ having drawn/dragged us to Him
Really this is bound up with election. If you don't believe in election, which I would imagine is hard because its found throughout the bible, old and new testaments, then I can see how you'd have a problem with POTS.
By the way, the "whosoevers" in no way contradict election. No one will call on the name of the Lord in sincerity for salvation unless they are the elect of God having been effectually called by the Holy Spirit. So yes, whoever earnestly desires to come to Christ for salvation can be and will be saved, but the reprobate will not desire this. A key way to differentiate the elect from the reprobate is their response to the gospel of Christ. We humans INDIVIDUALLY vote for Christ after He has drawn Himself unto us through a supernatural act(s) coming into our life at His appointed time of our life timeline.
Romans 8:30 describes the whole drama of salvation from the big-picture view. God predestines his people from eternity past. He calls his people whom he has predestined. Having called his people, he justifies them in Christ. Having justified them, he glorifies them at the consummation of all things. There is no libertarian 'free will' involved here, though this does not happen against our will; rather the Spirit of God regenerates our hearts and gives us the very will to come to Christ for salvation. Not happening against our will IS 'freewill.' Either it is, or, it isn't. Yes, you got two things right, when born of God we are regenerated, flesh dies, we are in Christ. But our temple CAN be left by the indwelling Christ in us.
Right but this is urging those who profess Christ to make absolutely sure that they are in fact Christians. Test yourself to see if you are in the faith (2 Corinthians 13:5). This is why the whole of 1 John was written, to assure true Christians that they are in the body of Christ, and to convict false disciples of their need for the real thing. Working out your salvation does not mean working to earn salvation, it means making sure you are really saved.
ALL are drawn to Christ, we ALL get our chance, and, what we do is our CHOICE. Deprived man? Potty hogwash, mattsevens. ALL get a,choice to CHOOSE Christ, now, SOME God works more on , but, like you got ONE thing right, besides understanding, YES! we are DRAWN, but you misstep saying only 'eternity past,' and 'predestination' speaks to some. Reprobate? Potty hogwash. There are NO reprobates in Gid's eyes. ALL are called, Christ bro, that IS the only 'just' and 'perfect,' so 'that none should perish,' way of our Father, 'The Way, The Truth, and, The Life.' We, that includes ANY human who ANSWERS His 'drawing call.'
Sure, smile, Christ peeps, I just did. There is no pre-destrined, orchestrated order by God for those going into the new world (Heaven and Earth) when end times come.
I soo wished you understood the Love of God, for God is Love, and, only grace, only mercy. God has given EVERYONE THE SAME MEASURE OF FAITH AND WE ARE TO BUILD IT WITH CONFIDENCE AS HE LAYS OUT HIS PLAN FOR OUR LIFE.
This is not yelling it is emphasizing, I do not yell, but I do EMPHASIZE The importance of undetstand the true character of our great God who is mercy, grace, Love, but, be not ye deceived by The Enemy, you CAN LOSE YOUR SALVATION. What are you saying, here, too?
When I say, per scripture, 'We are to work out our OWN salvation with fear and trembling' is just, in your words, mattsevens, 'to find out if we are really saved.'
What, on God's green earth, does that quote part mean? ^^^
"So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy."
- Romans 9:16 This applies to God's sovereign control over all, like 911, when His divine purpose causes great change, this does change a man's life timeline but it by no means says God did not know man's death date, for God KNOWS all. He KNEW what we were intended to do for His great work for our life timeline before we were born; we,, of course, are given choices freely to either become His and follow His plan for us.
God has mercy on whom he will have mercy, he saves whomever he chooses to save. We don't choose God, God chooses us. And, GOD, through His true nature-which is Love, mercy, grace-chooses (draws) @LL of us, UNDERSTAND 'the circular'nature of ALL this Truth. And, yes, some humans are given more mercy than others, more grace, too, OUR faith GROWTH builds mercy/grace for us and OBEDIENCE. This is God's way, it is just, He is perfect in His ways shewing mercy. ]
"You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you."
- John 15:16 This refers to building our life and personal relationship with Christ. This has zip to do with salvation, except, yes, the 'not choose Me, but I chose you,' which refers to immediate initial act of salvation of Christ having drawn/dragged us to Him
Really this is bound up with election. If you don't believe in election, which I would imagine is hard because its found throughout the bible, old and new testaments, then I can see how you'd have a problem with POTS.
By the way, the "whosoevers" in no way contradict election. No one will call on the name of the Lord in sincerity for salvation unless they are the elect of God having been effectually called by the Holy Spirit. So yes, whoever earnestly desires to come to Christ for salvation can be and will be saved, but the reprobate will not desire this. A key way to differentiate the elect from the reprobate is their response to the gospel of Christ. We humans INDIVIDUALLY vote for Christ after He has drawn Himself unto us through a supernatural act(s) coming into our life at His appointed time of our life timeline.
Romans 8:30 describes the whole drama of salvation from the big-picture view. God predestines his people from eternity past. He calls his people whom he has predestined. Having called his people, he justifies them in Christ. Having justified them, he glorifies them at the consummation of all things. There is no libertarian 'free will' involved here, though this does not happen against our will; rather the Spirit of God regenerates our hearts and gives us the very will to come to Christ for salvation. Not happening against our will IS 'freewill.' Either it is, or, it isn't. Yes, you got two things right, when born of God we are regenerated, flesh dies, we are in Christ. But our temple CAN be left by the indwelling Christ in us.
Right but this is urging those who profess Christ to make absolutely sure that they are in fact Christians. Test yourself to see if you are in the faith (2 Corinthians 13:5). This is why the whole of 1 John was written, to assure true Christians that they are in the body of Christ, and to convict false disciples of their need for the real thing. Working out your salvation does not mean working to earn salvation, it means making sure you are really saved.
This last not to CONVICT you for Christ NEVER convicts His own, just disciplines we who have chosen Him, but, yes, do what you do as He will lead you, Christ peeps , we be sparrows and His eyes are on us ALL
G
I do not believe in libertarian free will as you seem to, I can find no scriptural evidence to support it. I do believe we make choices, and we are accountable for our choices, but we make choices in accordance with our nature. Depraved sinners are not free to choose righteousness any more than a dog is free to become a cat. No sinner can come to Christ unless the Father draws them. And all he 'calls' are justified and all justified are glorified (Romans 8:30). The only ones who come to Christ are those who are effectually called by God, having been predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ from eternity past. God chose whom he would save from before the world began and predestined these to be called, justified, and glorified.
ALL are drawn to Christ, we ALL get our chance, and, what we do is our CHOICE. Deprived man? Potty hogwash, mattsevens. ALL get a,choice to CHOOSE
"So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy."
- Romans 9:16 This applies to God's sovereign control over all, like 911, when His divine purpose causes great change, this does change a man's life timeline but it by no means says God did not know man's death date, for God KNOWS all. He KNEW what we were intended to do for His great work for our life timeline before we were born; we,, of course, are given choices freely to either become His and follow His plan for us.
God has mercy on whom he will have mercy, he saves whomever he chooses to save. We don't choose God, God chooses us. And, GOD, through His true nature-which is Love, mercy, grace-chooses (draws) @LL of us, UNDERSTAND 'the circular'nature of ALL this Truth. And, yes, some humans are given more mercy than others, more grace, too, OUR faith GROWTH builds mercy/grace for us and OBEDIENCE. This is God's way, it is just, He is perfect in His ways shewing mercy. ]
"You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you."
- John 15:16 This refers to building our life and personal relationship with Christ. This has zip to do with salvation, except, yes, the 'not choose Me, but I chose you,' which refers to immediate initial act of salvation of Christ having drawn/dragged us to Him
Really this is bound up with election. If you don't believe in election, which I would imagine is hard because its found throughout the bible, old and new testaments, then I can see how you'd have a problem with POTS.
By the way, the "whosoevers" in no way contradict election. No one will call on the name of the Lord in sincerity for salvation unless they are the elect of God having been effectually called by the Holy Spirit. So yes, whoever earnestly desires to come to Christ for salvation can be and will be saved, but the reprobate will not desire this. A key way to differentiate the elect from the reprobate is their response to the gospel of Christ. We humans INDIVIDUALLY vote for Christ after He has drawn Himself unto us through a supernatural act(s) coming into our life at His appointed time of our life timeline.
Romans 8:30 describes the whole drama of salvation from the big-picture view. God predestines his people from eternity past. He calls his people whom he has predestined. Having called his people, he justifies them in Christ. Having justified them, he glorifies them at the consummation of all things. There is no libertarian 'free will' involved here, though this does not happen against our will; rather the Spirit of God regenerates our hearts and gives us the very will to come to Christ for salvation. Not happening against our will IS 'freewill.' Either it is, or, it isn't. Yes, you got two things right, when born of God we are regenerated, flesh dies, we are in Christ. But our temple CAN be left by the indwelling Christ in us.
Right but this is urging those who profess Christ to make absolutely sure that they are in fact Christians. Test yourself to see if you are in the faith (2 Corinthians 13:5). This is why the whole of 1 John was written, to assure true Christians that they are in the body of Christ, and to convict false disciples of their need for the real thing. Working out your salvation does not mean working to earn salvation, it means making sure you are really saved.
ALL are drawn to Christ, we ALL get our chance, and, what we do is our CHOICE. Deprived man? Potty hogwash, mattsevens. ALL get a,choice to CHOOSE
GreenNnice said:
Christ, now, SOME God works more on , but, like you got ONE thing right, besides understanding, YES! we are DRAWN, but you misstep saying only 'eternity past,' and 'predestination' speaks to some. Reprobate? Potty hogwash. There are NO reprobates in Gid's eyes. ALL are called, Christ bro, that IS the only 'just' and 'perfect,' so 'that none should perish,' way of our Father, 'The Way, The Truth, and, The Life.' We, that includes ANY human who ANSWERS His 'drawing call.' Sure, smile, Christ peeps, I just did.
There is no pre-destrined, orchestrated order by God for those going into the new world (Heaven and Earth) when end times come.
I soo wished you understood the Love of God, for God is Love, and, only grace, only mercy. God has given EVERYONE THE SAME MEASURE OF FAITH AND WE ARE TO BUILD IT WITH CONFIDENCE AS HE LAYS OUT HIS PLAN FOR OUR LIFE. This is not yelling it is emphasizing, I do not yell, but I do EMPHASIZE The importance of undetstand the true character of our great God who is mercy, grace, Love, but, be not ye deceived by The Enemy, you CAN LOSE YOUR SALVATION.
What are you saying, here, too?
Sure, smile, Christ peeps, I just did. There is no pre-destrined, orchestrated order by God for those going into the new world (Heaven and Earth) when end times come.
I soo wished you understood the Love of God, for God is Love, and, only grace, only mercy. God has given EVERYONE THE SAME MEASURE OF FAITH AND WE ARE TO BUILD IT WITH CONFIDENCE AS HE LAYS OUT HIS PLAN FOR OUR LIFE.
This is not yelling it is emphasizing, I do not yell, but I do EMPHASIZE The importance of undetstand the true character of our great God who is mercy, grace, Love, but, be not ye deceived by The Enemy, you CAN LOSE YOUR SALVATION. What are you saying, here, too?
"So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy."
- Romans 9:16 This applies to God's sovereign control over all, like 911, when His divine purpose causes great change, this does change a man's life timeline but it by no means says God did not know man's death date, for God KNOWS all. He KNEW what we were intended to do for His great work for our life timeline before we were born; we,, of course, are given choices freely to either become His and follow His plan for us.
God has mercy on whom he will have mercy, he saves whomever he chooses to save. We don't choose God, God chooses us. And, GOD, through His true nature-which is Love, mercy, grace-chooses (draws) @LL of us, UNDERSTAND 'the circular'nature of ALL this Truth. And, yes, some humans are given more mercy than others, more grace, too, OUR faith GROWTH builds mercy/grace for us and OBEDIENCE. This is God's way, it is just, He is perfect in His ways shewing mercy. ]
"You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you."
- John 15:16 This refers to building our life and personal relationship with Christ. This has zip to do with salvation, except, yes, the 'not choose Me, but I chose you,' which refers to immediate initial act of salvation of Christ having drawn/dragged us to Him
Really this is bound up with election. If you don't believe in election, which I would imagine is hard because its found throughout the bible, old and new testaments, then I can see how you'd have a problem with POTS.
By the way, the "whosoevers" in no way contradict election. No one will call on the name of the Lord in sincerity for salvation unless they are the elect of God having been effectually called by the Holy Spirit. So yes, whoever earnestly desires to come to Christ for salvation can be and will be saved, but the reprobate will not desire this. A key way to differentiate the elect from the reprobate is their response to the gospel of Christ. We humans INDIVIDUALLY vote for Christ after He has drawn Himself unto us through a supernatural act(s) coming into our life at His appointed time of our life timeline.
Romans 8:30 describes the whole drama of salvation from the big-picture view. God predestines his people from eternity past. He calls his people whom he has predestined. Having called his people, he justifies them in Christ. Having justified them, he glorifies them at the consummation of all things. There is no libertarian 'free will' involved here, though this does not happen against our will; rather the Spirit of God regenerates our hearts and gives us the very will to come to Christ for salvation. Not happening against our will IS 'freewill.' Either it is, or, it isn't. Yes, you got two things right, when born of God we are regenerated, flesh dies, we are in Christ. But our temple CAN be left by the indwelling Christ in us.
Right but this is urging those who profess Christ to make absolutely sure that they are in fact Christians. Test yourself to see if you are in the faith (2 Corinthians 13:5). This is why the whole of 1 John was written, to assure true Christians that they are in the body of Christ, and to convict false disciples of their need for the real thing. Working out your salvation does not mean working to earn salvation, it means making sure you are really saved.
This last not to CONVICT you for Christ NEVER convicts His own, just disciplines we who have chosen Him, but, yes, do what you do as He will lead you, Christ peeps , we be sparrows and His eyes are on us ALL
well then continue on to work in the acts of doing what you do not believe Christ gave you while you were not worthy,,,,seek to build a house you did not build,,,,,,ye are even more than Christ who can preserve grace after obtaining the grace given for falling on your face,,,,,,,,,,,pitty ye the second thump of death and hope you bounce back up to the blood that was shed at the cross after you were given grace,,,grace has a special meaning it means none of it came from the tips of your fingers,,,,,,,,,but the grace giver it came from his fingers and his whole heart,,,,,,,,there is only one way you can goof up grace,,,,,,the grace giver must stumble around and miss you,,,,,,,,,,,,,
C
I dont deny we are saved by grace through faith
Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
But...
Heb_11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
Heb_11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
Jas_2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas_2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
We have to live what we say we believe. What you do outwardly should reflect what you feel inwardly. None of us are perfect though and that's where grace abounds.
Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
But...
Heb_11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
Heb_11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
Jas_2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas_2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
We have to live what we say we believe. What you do outwardly should reflect what you feel inwardly. None of us are perfect though and that's where grace abounds.
G
Originally Posted by iamsoandso "can you un-earn a thing you did not deserve nor could not earn",,,
yes, soandso, we CAN lose something we never earned.
All things are possible with God., this includes good things possible and bad. What God gives us by grace CAN be taken away by our self-acts to potty on His gift. Now, all sins are forgiveable (but blasphemy), but Christ says IF WE DENY HIM HE WILL DENY US.'
Nasb: If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us; 1 Timothy 2:12
We MUST endure that means SUFFER for His sake, living His life for us , there is NO grace free ride into Heaven. We must work!
Well said, Christ bro ! Vvvvvvv
No doubt we are saved by faith in Christ. ¥es, we are, but WHERE in scripture AFTER this does scripture tell us that is it?
I will tell you where , no 'where.'
Eph_2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
But can dead faith save you?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Can faith that you depart from save you?
Col_1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
1Ti_1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
yes, soandso, we CAN lose something we never earned.
All things are possible with God., this includes good things possible and bad. What God gives us by grace CAN be taken away by our self-acts to potty on His gift. Now, all sins are forgiveable (but blasphemy), but Christ says IF WE DENY HIM HE WILL DENY US.'
Nasb: If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us; 1 Timothy 2:12
We MUST endure that means SUFFER for His sake, living His life for us , there is NO grace free ride into Heaven. We must work!
Well said, Christ bro ! Vvvvvvv
No doubt we are saved by faith in Christ. ¥es, we are, but WHERE in scripture AFTER this does scripture tell us that is it?
I will tell you where , no 'where.'
Eph_2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
But can dead faith save you?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Can faith that you depart from save you?
Col_1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
1Ti_1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
Last edited by a moderator:
No. Salvation cannot be lost. That is a Christian can never lose his or her salvation. Now a Christian can lose many other things. Like their joy, their testimony, their character, their integrity, their health, their money, their rewards, and their millennial inheritance. But they can never lose their salvation since a Christian is sealed with the Holy Spirit in this dispensation known as the Church Age. Here are Biblical References:
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one. - John 10:27-30
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, - Ephesians 1:13
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. - Ephesians 4:30
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one. - John 10:27-30
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, - Ephesians 1:13
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. - Ephesians 4:30
G
Where IN THIS VERSE is the finality, or, GUARANTEE of Salvation. The HOLY SPIRIT is assurity of salvation in our being 'sealed by the Holy Spirit,' and, by being with He in our temple we have assurance and confidence of our salvation but, by no means does being 'sealed by HS' explain in this verse that we are guaranteed salvation no matter what.
This is a warning of WHAT can happen IF we grieve the Holy Spirit. And, obviously, we can grieve the Holy Spirit or Paul wouldn't have said so to the Ephesians.
This is a warning of WHAT can happen IF we grieve the Holy Spirit. And, obviously, we can grieve the Holy Spirit or Paul wouldn't have said so to the Ephesians.
Last edited by a moderator: