Can someone lose their salvation?

[zone]

I put those verses up to show the absurdity of Red's position concering the question constantly put to him that he mainly refuses to answer

Yes we all struggle with tempation and sin, but I believe when Paul says there must not be a hint of impurity he is refering to adultery/affairs, which I suggest God would very quickly stop in a new converts life as they trusted in Christ. Surely God would deal with things in order of priority, and having affairs, committing adultery would be right at the top I would imagine. This does not mean the person is free of impure thoughts, I think we have to understand what is being said in context here

BUT what?.....do you sin or not?

ONE = DEATH.

does God grade sin on a sliding scale? or is Red's postion REALLY about Grace?


you haven't shown the absurdity of Red's position at all.
not even close.

you could take your victory and let it go now, though.
but then what would you have?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I don't believe I have refused to discuss anything. Let me quote what Paul wrote

Do not be deceived. Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexual offenders, nor theives nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor slanderers will inherit the kingdom of God
1 Cor 6:9&10

Forgive me if I am slow on the uptake but no-one I have ever discussed this with has questioned what Paul meant here. If a person will not inherit the kingdom of God they will not go to Heaven, do you disagree with this?

Yes i do. Because the kingdom of God is not of heaven, it is here on earth. Thats the point I was trying to make.

Think Jewish law. David was king, He also was a jew. God promised many things to Jews, and David had many things he could have had as king. Because of his sin he did not enjoy those things.

His son was killed, His son of sin tried to kill him and took many of his wives.

He was on the run for much of th elater years of his life.

He was still a jew, He was still a king. But because of his sin he did not recieve the blessings God wanted to give him here on earth. We see this over and over in the OT.

The kingdom of God is where God offers these same things to not only jew, But Gentile. If we walk in gods statutes he will bless us. If we do not. We will not recieve those blessings.

Again I asked this before. No one answered. The one who recieved wood hay and straw as a reward (suffered loss) what did he do. or not do. to earn this "lack of reward" but still be saved?

I believe etrnal life is at stake if these issues are not dealt with in a persons life. Why do I say this? Becasue Paul plainly wrote it, and as I have said Spurgeon believed it to. So I believe on this issue as does Spurgeon

In Ephesians Paul says that such behaviour will will mean a person cannot have any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ or of God

Then you believe in the opposite Gospel that Red believes in. You believe in a gospel of works, in which one must earn his salvation, by as you say, "people must deal with issues in their life" In other words. they must work to change in order to earn a gift of salvation.

Unless I have read what you said wrong.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

first: i disagree with Red's last summary on repentence (confessing our sins to The Lord) in the life of a believer: i do not know why he chose to word it that way. he'll either leave it at that or choose to restate it: that's up to him. BUT I KNOW WHAT HE MEANS and why he said it.

and nobody says you have to like Red, or agree. he and i do not on many things.

but don't claim the Gospel he preaches is antinomian EG - its IS NOT and never has been: you're looking at 6 months of jabbering over a single non existent man....and that man has nothing to do with Red believing in licentiousness.

You know there has never been a man who has done that? I know many men who have done things as this or worst. Do I believe they were ever saved? No I don't. Do I think they could ever be saved? Yes I do. When they finally repent and admit their sin and their hate towards God. When they do this. They will show fruits which prove ther faith was NOT DEAD.

James did not write what he wrote to waste his breath, Nor did Jude. They both said there are people like this. Why would we or anyone else say there are not?

i've NEVER seen him say any such thing. i've had enough issues with him if wanted to go against him this would be a good time to do it. but no.

he is being MISREPRESENTED here.

I have, and I must respectfully disagree here.

the original heart of the matter is not that strawman: its that some people like and believe in and are enamoured with modern day prophets and prophetesses, especially those who prophesy doom against the church; some people despise church; some people say the Bible is not sufficient..etc. that's how this whole thing started. some of us have been here long enough to have seen it.

Those are other issues. many in which I agree as you do. But I am not going to say someone is ok on one part when they are not. even if we agree on many other things. This is what I believe red is doing to LBG. I have seen it for along time. and maybe LBG is doing it to red. i don't know. but if he is he is just as wrong. I don't hate red, any more than I hate you because we disagree about daniel 9. I love ya'll. does not mean I have to agree with ya

with that said, MY how the Strawman's personality and lifestyle has developed since yesterday!

on a separate note:
EG or anyone:

could you please be detailed in telling me how king david's particular sins (which occurred over more than 9 months) concerning Bathsheba and Uriah and God are any different from the stupid strawman who keeps morphing into satan himself?

David lived a life with God. Followed him, Trusted him, Read his word. Did many things which showed he had God in his heart many years before he fell.

This man claimed to be a Christian. But not once did he showed he loved God, Had God in his heart. Did anything for God. Felt sorry for his sin or anything. He showed no sign of repenantance. Or as James said, He showed no sign his faith was not "dead'

As I asked many times, Can a man with a dead faith be saved? How much faith is a dead faith?

and...was king david was capable of such sin all along, or did the devil make him do it?

i need to see ANYPLACE in scripture where God makes exceptions for sins, or considers the sins of some nothing while others are condemned.

forget the strawman. let's use Biblical people OURSELVES.

thank you.

Well I have used Jude and James to show what they showed. And also showed how the example used fits with what Jude and james said.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

BUT what?.....do you sin or not?

ONE = DEATH.

does God grade sin on a sliding scale? or is Red's postion REALLY about Grace?


you haven't shown the absurdity of Red's position at all.
not even close.

you could take your victory and let it go now, though.
but then what would you have?

I have truth. Red believes in a licentious Gospel. He does not believe one has to repent to be saved, Those are his own words. Unless he shows me otherwise. all I can do is go off what he said.

 

[livingbygrace]

still be saved?[/b]




Then you believe in the opposite Gospel that Red believes in. You believe in a gospel of works, in which one must earn his salvation, by as you say, "people must deal with issues in their life" In other words. they must work to change in order to earn a gift of salvation.

Unless I have read what you said wrong.

Paul makles clear, certain sin if not dealt with will stop someone inherriting the kingdom of God. Now we have the 'head theologists' on this site(not you) who in their wisdom say one one thing according to that head theology but in their heart in real life would believe something different

As I said to you , i
You sit next to someone in church, you know they are not perfect, therefore they have sin in their life, but they WANT IN THEIR HEARTS to have things dealt with in their life that are not as they should be, but they and you know that they are saved by grace, they say they are saved and you believe them, even with their imperfections, praise God

Biut someone else the next week sits next to you and you know that for the last six weeks they have murdered someone each week. Are you honeestly, OR THESE HEAD THEOLOGISTS going to say
'Well they are not saved by works or personal goodness but by faith in Christ, so I accept them as a brother Christian. ' No you are not, neither would anyone else. So in effect whatever some on this site say, they agree with what Paul wrote in their hearts
There is sin that will bar a person from everlasting life, why? Becasue if they were led by the Holy Spirit God would have dealt with such sin

Let me put it another way
A man becomes saved. He has in the past murdered people, he has had homocidal tendencies. He also uses bad language and has all his life and that needs to stop as well. What is God going to deal with first in his life?(assuming we do not believe everything is dealt with at once) God will deal with issues in our lives in order of priority.

Do you believe a serial murderer who keeps murdering people once they claim to be saved will go to Heaven? No you don't. So you in effect as well as the 'head theologists' who say differently in debate here believe there is sin that will bar a person from Heaven

And before we get David quoted again by some, he repented of his sin and did not go around constantly murdering Uriahs to cover up sin.

Now I have stated over and over again that upon conversion a person still has much sin in their life that needs dealing with and it takes time

But surely God will prioriitise as I have already mentioned

We love God and want to live as he would have us live, we are not under law but under grace, and because we are sin will not be our master(but this does not mean we will be perfect in the flesh)
We know we cannot change ourselves, only Christ can change us as we trust in him, and stand in our faith in him our one and ponly righteousness for Heaven
It is not what we do but what he does in us
We do not constantly think, this ior that still needs dealing with in my life and Paul said this and that so I wil go to hell as I still have this sin in me
Our job is to look to Christ and trust him and he will deal with what needs dealing with and we give GOD ALL THE GLORY FOR WHAT HE DOES IN OUR LIVES

So the question is, will Christ let us down or will he change us?
The question is not
Can I live a good enough life, but rather what Christ will do in and for us if we bow the knee and let him, for we must know we cannot change ourselves

So if we are sincere and are trusting in Christ to change us will we for years by trusting Christ remain a drunkard?
Will we for years remain a serial adulterer? etc etc etc

No we will not, not because of anything we have done but becaue of what Christ has done in us

Then we get down on our knees and raise our arms in the air and prtaise God for what he has done fpor us though his son, and from the heart we give him all the glory

And I have never said a Christian will be perfect in the flesh on this earth, but some ignore that

 

[zone]

You know there has never been a man who has done that? I know many men who have done things as this or worst. Do I believe they were ever saved? No I don't. Do I think they could ever be saved? Yes I do. When they finally repent and admit their sin and their hate towards God. When they do this. They will show fruits which prove ther faith was NOT DEAD.

EG...i said i have never seen Red say those things.
not that i have never seen people to whom the parable of the sower (the poor soils) applies.

we don't know enough about the strawman to judge RED by him!

the devil strawman who keeps morphing is now used to discredit Red? sad.

you'll have to go back to when the strawman was created to see what his purpose really was.

i know where most posts are....when i get time i may go back to threads where Red has absolutley affirmed that The Lord brings one to repentence...and that it is necessary. there's more than enough evidence he does believe that: this other thing is just plain CREEPY and hopefully is over.

people can decide for themselves what heresy is.

Those are other issues. many in which I agree as you do. But I am not going to say someone is ok on one part when they are not. even if we agree on many other things. This is what I believe red is doing to LBG. I have seen it for along time. and maybe LBG is doing it to red. i don't know. but if he is he is just as wrong. I don't hate red, any more than I hate you because we disagree about daniel 9. I love ya'll. does not mean I have to agree with ya

agreed.
(Daniel 9 is fulfilled or you have no forgiveness for your sins)

David lived a life with God. Followed him, Trusted him, Read his word. Did many things which showed he had God in his heart many years before he fell.

and?
how serious were his sins?
did God overlook them?
wouldn't one say his sins could be considered even more grevious since he DID know the Lord?

are you saying a "good" christian can get away with murder? (EG: meet the new STRAWMAN...same as the old strawman)

This man claimed to be a Christian. But not once did he showed he loved God, Had God in his heart. Did anything for God. Felt sorry for his sin or anything. He showed no sign of repenantance. Or as James said, He showed no sign his faith was not "dead'

show me the strawman's testimony where he never showed he loved God in his heart. or that he never "did anything for God" (WORKS), or that he never felt sorry...were you there in his lonely bed at night?

how do you know the strawman's heart?....until we read of david committing adultery and murder we would never have guessed DAVID could fall so far from Grace....

or that he could be restored.

As I asked many times, Can a man with a dead faith be saved? How much faith is a dead faith?

Well I have used Jude and James to show what they showed. And also showed how the example used fits with what Jude and james said.

dead faith isn't saving faith. its not faith at all.
we all know that.

but what else do we know about Faith? from Whence does it come?

Matthew 19
23 And Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly, I say to you, only with difficulty will a rich person enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.” 25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?” 26 But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” 27 Then Peter said in reply, “See, we have left everything and followed you. What then will we have?” 28 Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, in the new world,b when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for my name’s sake, will receive a hundredfoldc and will inherit eternal life. 30 But many who are first will be last, and the last first.

~

love zone.

ps:

Daniel 9
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

it is FINISHED.

 

[HeavenwithinYOU]

NOT if its a REAL salvation that is filled with power and the SPIRIT of Christ in a person.... hear me out? YouTube - Jesus Christ Testimony, Finding Jesus Christ, Jesus loves you.

 

[zone]

The difference is, my beliefs are Biblical, yours are not.

Arianism

Arianism, a Christian heresy first proposed early in the 4th century by the Alexandrian presbyter Arius. It affirmed that Christ is not truly divine but a created being. Arius’ basic premise was the uniqueness of God, who is alone self-existent and immutable; the Son, who is not self-existent, cannot be God. Because the Godhead is unique, it cannot be shared or communicated, so the Son cannot be God. Because the Godhead is immutable, the Son, who is mutable, being represented in the Gospels as subject to growth and change, cannot be God. The Son must, therefore, be deemed a creature ... (100 of 684 words)

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/34124/Arianism



[SIZE=+1]Kathryn Kuhlman and her Spirit Guide[/SIZE]

Probably no one set the tone for the New Wave movement more clearly than Mrs. Kuhlman. She had a mystic about herself that could not be ignored. Those who knew her or visited her meetings became either supporters or critics. Let’s follow a different approach in reviewing her life and ministry. Is it possible for a person controlled by a spirit guide from Lucifer to actually believe that this controlling spirit is the Holy Spirit? I believe the answer is clearly, yes. Satan and his minions are master imitators. Hell will be inhabited with a multitude that truly believed that in life they were following God. In fact, Jesus told of the Day of Judgment when men would remind Him of prophesying in His name, but listen to His answer, "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matthew 7:22-23).

There will also be persons in the eternal presence of Christ whom Satan deceived, who made mistakes because of those deceptions, but who learned in time, repented and ended life in hope of eternal redemption. Thanks to God, Satan loses many of his captives because Jesus came to set the captives free. Whether Kathryn Kuhlman will be in the first category or the last is determined by the sovereign judgment of God and we must wait until eternity for the results. God is a just God and no one who turns wholly to His Son will be forgotten......

http://www.cephas-library.com/charismatics/charismatic_kathryn_kuhlman_and_her_spirit_guide.html

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Paul makles clear, certain sin if not dealt with will stop someone inherriting the kingdom of God. Now we have the 'head theologists' on this site(not you) who in their wisdom say one one thing according to that head theology but in their heart in real life would believe something different

As I said to you , i
You sit next to someone in church, you know they are not perfect, therefore they have sin in their life, but they WANT IN THEIR HEARTS to have things dealt with in their life that are not as they should be, but they and you know that they are saved by grace, they say they are saved and you believe them, even with their imperfections, praise God

Biut someone else the next week sits next to you and you know that for the last six weeks they have murdered someone each week. Are you honeestly, OR THESE HEAD THEOLOGISTS going to say
'Well they are not saved by works or personal goodness but by faith in Christ, so I accept them as a brother Christian. ' No you are not, neither would anyone else. So in effect whatever some on this site say, they agree with what Paul wrote in their hearts
There is sin that will bar a person from everlasting life, why? Becasue if they were led by the Holy Spirit God would have dealt with such sin

First off, The question is what is the kingdom of God, is it heaven. or our life here on earth until we get to heaven. This question has yet to be dealt with.

As for your two examples. I do not know enough to give you an answer. Has the one who killed someone never looked to God, Never showed a life of spirituality? Or is this person one who did many things for many years. And something happened in his or her life which made them snap and do the things you claim they did.

If it is the first type of person. They were never saved (in my mind) if it is the second. I would not tend to question their salvation. maybe they were saved and snapped. Like David did when he found out the lady he had an affair with got pregnant. Or maybe they never were saved. and it was all a game. and as scripture said a dog always returns to their vomit. But am I going to condemn him to hell? No. For in doing so I would have to condemn king david to hell.

The point I am trying to make is a habitual liar is just as bad as a serial killer in Gods eyes. Christ had to die for both sins, or neither would make it.

There are sins in which God knows is more damaging to society (muder, rape, adultry, forniaction etc etc) and God has imposed harsher (temporal) punishments for these sins than others. We see this not only in the law. But in Pauls writtings. That some sins will prevent us from inheriting all the wonderful blessings God wants to give us while here on earth. But eternal consequences and temporal consequences are not the same. ALL sin has eternal consequences. Some sins have more severe temporal consequences than others.

The pharisees thought they were righteous. They did not murder. Commit sexual sin. They were not drunks, nor did they do any of the type sins spoken of by Paul. Yet Jesus said unless our righteousness exceeds theirs we have no hope. Why, Because they were not sinless. They were just as guilty in Gods eyes as the people who commited those sins.

when we say that those people will not make it to heaven. But we will because we do not do those things. we ar no better than the pharisee. And I think this is a dangerous doctrine. Why would I want to try to live for God when I struggle with sexual sin, and if I do not break free from it I have no hope? what message are we sending them? a message of despair. not of hope.

If I am a perosn struggling with htis sin and am told this thing. I would not share it. Would not admit it. or show my weekness by showing my sorrow (even if it was killing me inside that I could not stop it) because I know I would be judged, not loved. And I would commit another sin of "pride" which would keep me from seeking help. because the only help I know I can get would only bring judgment and condemnation. Not love.

Let me put it another way
A man becomes saved. He has in the past murdered people, he has had homocidal tendencies. He also uses bad language and has all his life and that needs to stop as well. What is God going to deal with first in his life?(assuming we do not believe everything is dealt with at once) God will deal with issues in our lives in order of priority.

Do you believe a serial murderer who keeps murdering people once they claim to be saved will go to Heaven? No you don't. So you in effect as well as the 'head theologists' who say differently in debate here believe there is sin that will bar a person from Heaven

No I disagree. The person is not going to be kept from heaven because he is a serial killer. Christ paid for that sin. He is going to not make it to heaven because he has not repented. He does not think he is doing wrong. or he would at least try to stop it and get help. Again, that is the difference betwen a licentious gospel, and a legalistic gospel of works. A licentious gospel teaches you say a few words and your in;. A legalistic gospel says you have faith. say a few words. then stop doing this and that, and do this or that or else your free gift is taken away. Both are evil gospels not from God.

And before we get David quoted again by some, he repented of his sin and did not go around constantly murdering Uriahs to cover up sin.

No but he did not stop sleeping with all his wives. thus commiting adultry.

Now I have stated over and over again that upon conversion a person still has much sin in their life that needs dealing with and it takes time

How much time. What if the person died before he stops. is he then declared guilty and condemned to hell?

But surely God will prioriitise as I have already mentioned

We love God and want to live as he would have us live, we are not under law but under grace, and because we are sin will not be our master(but this does not mean we will be perfect in the flesh)
We know we cannot change ourselves, only Christ can change us as we trust in him, and stand in our faith in him our one and ponly righteousness for Heaven
It is not what we do but what he does in us
We do not constantly think, this ior that still needs dealing with in my life and Paul said this and that so I wil go to hell as I still have this sin in me
Our job is to look to Christ and trust him and he will deal with what needs dealing with and we give GOD ALL THE GLORY FOR WHAT HE DOES IN OUR LIVES

So the question is, will Christ let us down or will he change us?
The question is not
Can I live a good enough life, but rather what Christ will do in and for us if we bow the knee and let him, for we must know we cannot change ourselves

God can only change us if we allow him. God may change many of my sin habits. One might be so strong a desire I have that I can't break it. Does God condemn me because I could not make it and stop a particular sin? even though I found victory in many others?

So if we are sincere and are trusting in Christ to change us will we for years by trusting Christ remain a drunkard?
Will we for years remain a serial adulterer? etc etc etc

No we will not, not because of anything we have done but becaue of what Christ has done in us

Then we get down on our knees and raise our arms in the air and prtaise God for what he has done fpor us though his son, and from the heart we give him all the glory

And I have never said a Christian will be perfect in the flesh on this earth, but some ignore that

yet what you say you say, and what you actually say do not appear to be the same. You seem to contradict yourself in a few areas.

 

[livingbygrace]

Arianism

Arianism, a Christian heresy first proposed early in the 4th century by the Alexandrian presbyter Arius. It affirmed that Christ is not truly divine but a created being. Arius’ basic premise was the uniqueness of God, who is alone self-existent and immutable; the Son, who is not self-existent, cannot be God. Because the Godhead is unique, it cannot be shared or communicated, so the Son cannot be God. Because the Godhead is immutable, the Son, who is mutable, being represented in the Gospels as subject to growth and change, cannot be God. The Son must, therefore, be deemed a creature ... (100 of 684 words)

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/34124/Arianism



[SIZE=+1]Kathryn Kuhlman and her Spirit Guide[/SIZE]

Probably no one set the tone for the New Wave movement more clearly than Mrs. Kuhlman. She had a mystic about herself that could not be ignored. Those who knew her or visited her meetings became either supporters or critics. Let’s follow a different approach in reviewing her life and ministry. Is it possible for a person controlled by a spirit guide from Lucifer to actually believe that this controlling spirit is the Holy Spirit? I believe the answer is clearly, yes. Satan and his minions are master imitators. Hell will be inhabited with a multitude that truly believed that in life they were following God. In fact, Jesus told of the Day of Judgment when men would remind Him of prophesying in His name, but listen to His answer, "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matthew 7:22-23).

There will also be persons in the eternal presence of Christ whom Satan deceived, who made mistakes because of those deceptions, but who learned in time, repented and ended life in hope of eternal redemption. Thanks to God, Satan loses many of his captives because Jesus came to set the captives free. Whether Kathryn Kuhlman will be in the first category or the last is determined by the sovereign judgment of God and we must wait until eternity for the results. God is a just God and no one who turns wholly to His Son will be forgotten......

http://www.cephas-library.com/charismatics/charismatic_kathryn_kuhlman_and_her_spirit_guide.html

People who will not accept what Christ continually stated was the neccessary belief in him to have eternal life

These people are mainly driven by the ego, a feeling that are so spiritually superior in knowledge that they have understanding that enables them to contradict the plain words of Christ and the Bible. They demand of others what Christ and the Apostles did not demand for a person to have everlasting life
Though they believe they are mature in understanding by contradicting, or adding to the plain words of Christ they show the very opposite to be true

LBG
12/5/11

And then some who have never given in their hearts what other Christians have to God just love throwing stones and criticising them, they revel in it, and convince themselves they are doing it with pure motives

 

[livingbygrace]

yet what you say you say, and what you actually say do not appear to be the same. You seem to contradict yourself in a few areas.

Please tell me where I contradict myself

 

[AnandaHya]

If God saves you then you are saved for Eternity, but you will be made miserable if you sin because GOD will CONVICT, Correct and Chastens you and neither will be pleasant. SO you can live righteously as best to your ability or be on PUNISHMENT all your life. It may not be sin unto Death (as in being casted into Hell by telling everyone that Jesus is not the Son of GOd but really a demon or some other nonsense) but sin will still be PUNISHED, maybe not with HELL but there are other ways.

Jesus will not lose any of His sheep.

How will you know you are part of Christ's FOLD?

The HOLY SPIRIT will live in your heart and when you sin you will feel AWFUL and try and live according to GOd's commandments not out of FEAR of God but out of LOVE of GOD and His abunant Grace which lives inside you.
GOD will teach you all truth. Just Abide in HIM and read His HOlY words found in the BIBLE and His voice will speak in your heart about what sin you need to repent of and stop doing until you are remade in His image of perfection and Goodness. Repentance is a daily thing and growth is done all of your life.


John 14:26
But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

 

[shroom2]

God gave us freedom of will. He will not overstep it, and force us to do, or not do, anything

.

What is the purpose of chastening the believer if it does not attempt to bend the volition of the believer in the right direction from where he was headed?

God does want us to 'do the right thing'. But He will not force us to do anything.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

[/color]

EG...i said i have never seen Red say those things.
not that i have never seen people to whom the parable of the sower (the poor soils) applies.

we don't know enough about the strawman to judge RED by him!

the devil strawman who keeps morphing is now used to discredit Red? sad.

you'll have to go back to when the strawman was created to see what his purpose really was.

i know where most posts are....when i get time i may go back to threads where Red has absolutley affirmed that The Lord brings one to repentence...and that it is necessary. there's more than enough evidence he does believe that: this other thing is just plain CREEPY and hopefully is over.

Hey you,
I never said Red did not say what you said. The problem I have with red is he thinks God does this after salvation. Not before. My problem is one can not have faith unless they come to repentnace first. A person who claims to have faith. but has no repentnace has no faith at all. Thats why they will not see a changed life. Which was the point behind what you call the strawman.

agreed.

(Daniel 9 is fulfilled or you have no forgiveness for your sins)

lol, Well only the first 69 weeks od daniel deal with my firgiveness. The last week deals with the nation of Israel, and has nothign to do with my forgiveness. for the messiah was already cut off on b=my behalf before the 70th week happened

and?
how serious were his sins?
did God overlook them?
wouldn't one say his sins could be considered even more grevious since he DID know the Lord?

are you saying a "good" christian can get away with murder? (EG: meet the new STRAWMAN...same as the old strawman)

Zone, You asked me a question and I gave you an answer. Did the people of Jude ever shows signs of repentance? Why did Jude say they were condemned. Because they sinned? Why did James say people had a dead faith? Because they sinned? No. We all sin, If they were talking of sin we all have no hope!

show me the strawman's testimony where he never showed he loved God in his heart. or that he never "did anything for God" (WORKS), or that he never felt sorry...were you there in his lonely bed at night?

We are not going to get anywhere with this. If you think the person who did not show one sign of repentnace can be saved. i don't know what to say.

lets take a different approach. Lets get away from what LBG asked and whatever his reasoning. And let me ask the same question with no other intention but to find truth.

The person in question never did any works to show he repented. And still did all the things that the strawman did. Do you think he could be saved?

how do you know the strawman's heart?....until we read of david committing adultery and murder we would never have guessed DAVID could fall so far from Grace....

or that he could be restored.

I think it would be pridefull to think david, ourselves or anyone else could not fall into sin. I think it is a sin to think we would never be restored. If David died before given the chance to repent. would he still be saved and a man after Gods heart?

dead faith isn't saving faith. its not faith at all.
we all know that.

People who believe you can lose salvation, and use James to prove their point do not know this

but what else do we know about Faith? from Whence does it come?

Matthew 19
23 And Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly, I say to you, only with difficulty will a rich person enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.” 25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?” 26 But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” 27 Then Peter said in reply, “See, we have left everything and followed you. What then will we have?” 28 Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, in the new world,b when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for my name’s sake, will receive a hundredfoldc and will inherit eternal life. 30 But many who are first will be last, and the last first.

~

love zone.

faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, The evidence of things NOT SEEN.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Please tell me where I contradict myself

So thats all your going to say about my whole post?

answer my post then I will show you where I see you contradict yourself.

 

[livingbygrace]

So thats all your going to say about my whole post?

answer my post then I will show you where I see you contradict yourself.

EG

I have been discussing this for days and with more than one person

Ask me one specific question and I will answer it

 

[eternally-gratefull]

EG

I have been discussing this for days and with more than one person

Ask me one specific question and I will answer it

wow. You asked questions and I gave you answers. Which had nothing to do with what has been said over the last few days that I see. And I don't rate a response? I don't get it.

you said:

We love God and want to live as he would have us live, we are not under law but under grace, and because we are sin will not be our master(but this does not mean we will be perfect in the flesh)
We know we cannot change ourselves, only Christ can change us as we trust in him, and stand in our faith in him our one and ponly righteousness for Heaven
It is not what we do but what he does in us
We do not constantly think, this ior that still needs dealing with in my life and Paul said this and that so I wil go to hell as I still have this sin in me
Our job is to look to Christ and trust him and he will deal with what needs dealing with and we give GOD ALL THE GLORY FOR WHAT HE DOES IN OUR LIVES

And then believe that if we do not stop these sins, or commit them we lose out on eternal life.

Which is it?

I asked you quite a few direct questions. Read it again and see.

All I said is from what I read. You appeared to me to be contradicting yourself. You say it is if grace through faith. But at the same token say a man must earn grace by changing. This appears to contradict. Can't you see why?

 

[zone]

Hey you,..

hey you

I never said Red did not say what you said. The problem I have with red is he thinks God does this after salvation. Not before. My problem is one can not have faith unless they come to repentnace first. A person who claims to have faith. but has no repentnace has no faith at all. Thats why they will not see a changed life. Which was the point behind what you call the strawman..

maybe i'll get a few of Red's posts from elsewhere when i get time, and that will put an end to this absurdity.

this thing isn't what you think it is....

nobody knows about the Strawman's life. we only know about his SIN.

lol, Well only the first 69 weeks od daniel deal with my firgiveness. The last week deals with the nation of Israel, and has nothign to do with my forgiveness. for the messiah was already cut off on b=my behalf before the 70th week happened .

tsk....
that is so antisemitic EG.
Daniel 9 is about ISRAEL'S MESSIAH.
we gentiles are grafted in.

He already came, and fulfilled all of Daniel 9.
the Pharisees rejected him, and for 2000 years have been building back what He tore down (hidden in plain view)....you'll see.

He confirmed the covenant with many and then he died for them. He continued to confirm that covenant after he had risen as well.

do you know what "the fullness of the gentiles" means? the CHURCH in its fullness, according to the eternal purpose

Ephesians 3:6
This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. (NIV)

And this is God's plan: Both Gentiles and Jews who believe the Good News share equally in the riches inherited by God's children. Both are part of the same body, and both enjoy the promise of blessings because they belong to Christ Jesus. (NLT)

Zone, You asked me a question and I gave you an answer. Did the people of Jude ever shows signs of repentance? Why did Jude say they were condemned. Because they sinned?.

you mean the certain men of old?
they'll never repent. they are reprobate, but are used for a purpose.

The person in question never did any works to show he repented. And still did all the things that the strawman did. Do you think he could be saved? .

who was watching his life? his church?
did he belong to a church?
did he believe false doctrine?
was he mentally ill?

what works would show he had repented?

no....we will see a change in one's life if they are truly saved.

how long will that take?

i'm not doing the 10 year Strawman thing. i know what the bible says. i'll talk about my own testimony instead of some stupid make believe man that we can't see.

but....will we see perfection as some here claim?

let us NOT FORGET KING DAVID...ever

I think it would be pridefull to think david, ourselves or anyone else could not fall into sin. I think it is a sin to think we would never be restored. If David died before given the chance to repent. would he still be saved and a man after Gods heart?

People who believe you can lose salvation, and use James to prove their point do not know this

faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, The evidence of things NOT SEEN.

amen
amen
and
amen.

ps:
here's an alternative Daniel 9 interpretation you may appreciate:
70 Weeks of Daniel

 

[livingbygrace]

wow. You asked questions and I gave you answers. Which had nothing to do with what has been said over the last few days that I see. And I don't rate a response? I don't get it.


Well to be honest I belive scripture is very plain on all of this, it is up to people if they believe it.
you said:



And then believe that if we do not stop these sins, or commit them we lose out on eternal life.
We stop or have victory in nothing it is what Christ does in us


Which is it?

I asked you quite a few direct questions. Read it again and see.

All I said is from what I read. You appeared to me to be contradicting yourself. You say it is if grace through faith. But at the same token say a man must earn grace by changing. This appears to contradict. Can't you see why?

OK

A person comes to God through Christ. They know they are secure with God by faith in his son, not their own personal goodness, they stand on their one and only righteousness for Heaven, faith in Christ.

But it is because a person knows they are secure with God, not by their own striving and effort to be good enough/obey the good laws of God, but by faith in Christ that sin MUST BIBLICALLY start to lose its power in their life.
So if the person is sincere(something I believe we agree on) change must then be seen in their life, for they are living in the truth of the Gospel of grace.

And if a person is sincere and loves God and is living in the truth of the Gospel of grace they will see much victory over sin in their life, for there is great power in the cross of Christ, it is inevitable, to believe anything else is to believe the cross of Christ lacks power and the Holy Spirit is weak and ineffective to sanctify a person.

So the truth of the Gospel of grace is that becaise a person knows they are secure with God through faith in his son, because they know being with God does not depend on their own personal effort but by faith in Christ their one and only righteousness for Heaven THEY MUST BE FREED OF WHAT BINDS THEM BY CHRIST.

So the lifestyle Paul speaks of that would bar someone from the kingdom of God would not apply to the sincere Christian living in the truth of grace, for Christ would set them free of those things as they trust in him and live in the truth of the Gospel of grace.

Now if a person was run over by a bus the day after they accepted Christ into their life obviously their salvation is secure by faith in Christ despite not seeing the changes in their life that a person would normally expect to see

So a sincere conversion must bring much victory over sin

And whether you admit it or not or whether the head theologists admit it or not if you knew someone who claimed to be a Christian and over much time did not show any improvement, or victory over certain sin in their life you in your heart would question their salvation

This has nothing to do with a person earning their way to Heaven, but an assuredness that Christ will deal with sin in a persons life if they trust in him, and the sin that is most urgent to deal with I suggest would be dealt with first

Now please tell me

If a person claims to be a Christian, goes to your church for a couple of years, raises their hands in the airc and professes to be a Christian, what would you think if you knew they were constantly having affairs and getting drunk?
Forget the head theology, what would you in your heart think?

Can we not just agree that yupon a sincere conversion things as mentioned would have to be dealt with, not by the individual, but an assurity that Christ would deal with them

If I have not convinced you by this answer I know I never will

God Bless

 

[livingbygrace]

wow. You asked questions and I gave you answers. Which had nothing to do with what has been said over the last few days that I see. And I don't rate a response? I don't get it.

you said:



And then believe that if we do not stop these sins, or commit them we lose out on eternal life.

Which is it?

I asked you quite a few direct questions. Read it again and see.

All I said is from what I read. You appeared to me to be contradicting yourself. You say it is if grace through faith. But at the same token say a man must earn grace by changing. This appears to contradict. Can't you see why?

BTW

We are not talking here of a person never once getting drunk etc we are talking of ceaseless and constant sin that has seen no victory over it. I have said many times we all fall, biut there is a great difference between slipping up and getting drunk say one night and constant/continuous drunkeness as a normal lifestyle . That I believe is what Paul is talking about