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We are all at different places and different points in our walk with God. I suppose there are many that think obedience is the way to God. And depending on where you are with the Lord you are correct. Obedience is abolutely the beginning. But it does't stop there. There is much more past mere obedience.
If obedience to the written word was all that was required then the Lord wouldn't have said that they err who think eternal life is given through the scriptures. The Lord says that through Him is given eternal life. You can fumble around with the Law for a really long time and never come to eternal life. You must go to Him to recieve eternal life. You must be willing to give Him what you hold precious in exchange for His Gift. This is done by faith.
I don't want to be a cause for any to stumble. But there is a difference between salvation and transformation. Salvation is a gift from God. No amount of work can purchase it. It is priceless. But I suppose you can't just be told that. How can a priceless gift require nothing from us? Well it doesn't require nothing from us, it requires everything from us. All that you hold dear. Are you willing to lay down your "free will", your precious aspirations of glory and fame, all your thoughts of becoming rich and powerful?? There are many other things that we hold precious that are like these.
You will find out when you "exchange" your precious things for the Lord's priceless gift that your things were never precious at all. In fact they caused all kinds of grief, shame, sorrow and sickness in your life. This is the heavy burden the Lord tells you to exchange for His Yoke, which is light and easy to bear.
Once you find out you were mistaken on almost everything you thought you knew, you no longer rely on your own intellect to try and understand the Lord. You rely on the Holy Spirit to reveal Truth to you. You find out that the Lord is the only one you can truly trust. Men (and women) come up with all kinds of doctrines based on their limited understanding of the scriptures.
The Lord promises us that He doesn't take back His Gifts. The Lord Promises us He will never leave us nor forsake us. We are told that all things work for the good for those that love God and are called according to His purpose. We are told that if we believe in Him, He will give us eternal life. I believe Him.
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weakness
Guest
I told myself not to get to engaged on this thread ....but... Sometimes certain threads seem like downward spirals circling endlessly. I was studying the counsels of early Christianity and some of our most controversial and ever appearing topics are mostly the same topics in dispute in these early counsels( whether godly counsels or not) makes me think.anyway I woke up this morning with faith and works on my mind. I was thinking about grace and faith and the scripture that man should leave his father and mother and cleave unto his wife and the two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery. Again this is not some great revelation of truth so go easy. but I overlaid man, woman ,becoming one flesh, and grace and and our faithful (or unfaithful) belief in that grace and saw similarities that the combing of grace and our response kind of bring forth a new one flesh that contain both the man and the woman but is separate and newly different creation ,like a child being part father part mother but new and unique work by grace through faith' I don't know .just thinking. grace and ... faith The spaces between grace and and and and and faith are unequal. just a word joke! god bless
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Crossfire
Guest
Wrong teaching suggests that our sin does not effect our position with God however, the Bible teaches that our sin actually REFLECTS our position with God. Wrong teaching would lead us to believe that no sin can separate us from God however, scripture states that sin is the evidence of a heart that has already gone astray.
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weakness
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GreenNnice
Guest
Bookie, wrong about person who fell away, just to interject quickly. If one tasted the heavenly gift and, I forget second thingz but third is 'partakes of the Holy Spirit, this person HAD a genuine faith. And, 4th, too (said a little later).
Why spin it any other way? If you do, wouldn't it be , and, I will receive flack now for saying this, but , yeah, wouldn't changing the 'spin' of God's true intentions in Hebrews 6:4-6 be 'backmasking.'
And, to eg, and whoever else wants to say times are different now for Hebrews teachnng, and, I thank ReignisHis for this next word, 'bologna.'
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Crossfyre, interestingly said, erudite one.
Now, since God looks at our heart, what does He see to evidence our sin is pulling us from Him?
Or, maybe a better way of putting it is 'what doesn't He see (by looking at our heart)?'
Next
question: When a person strays from God, because of sin, is this what is or is not in person's heart?, That what Hebrews 6: 4-6 means by that person, who just crucified Christ all over again, who is subjecting Him to shame, who is IMPOSSIBLE to again be brought to repentence'?
How TRUE of faith is this person's heart in their backsliding state?
One's not truly saved IF they have
1) 'Tasted the heavenly gift.'
2)'tasted of the word of God
3) partakes of Holy Spirit
4)witnessed 'the power of the ages to come
Really! , What do you know that the Word says that I don't, that is, He's shown me??
This verse, Christ peeps, I encourage you to genuinely sponge in its content and quit scape goating its salvation message by saying, 'Well, this only applied to the Hebrews.'
Bologna !!!! God is the same yesterday, today, forevermore, and, what God wrote through inspired men then applies TODAY
Last question: Or, wait, let's deal with those 2 Q's first, as not to confuse you OSAS folks too much
Also, sorry OSAS , since when does IMPOSSIBLE not mean IMPOSSIBLE ?
Now, let's analyze that heart of the 'apostate' person or is this impossible to do? God can, of course, but how, again can a given person know another's heart and their relationship with God?
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Now, since God looks at our heart, what does He see to evidence our sin is pulling us from Him?
Or, maybe a better way of putting it is 'what doesn't He see (by looking at our heart)?'
Next
question: When a person strays from God, because of sin, is this what is or is not in person's heart?, That what Hebrews 6: 4-6 means by that person, who just crucified Christ all over again, who is subjecting Him to shame, who is IMPOSSIBLE to again be brought to repentence'?
How TRUE of faith is this person's heart in their backsliding state?
One's not truly saved IF they have
1) 'Tasted the heavenly gift.'
2)'tasted of the word of God
3) partakes of Holy Spirit
4)witnessed 'the power of the ages to come
Really! , What do you know that the Word says that I don't, that is, He's shown me??
This verse, Christ peeps, I encourage you to genuinely sponge in its content and quit scape goating its salvation message by saying, 'Well, this only applied to the Hebrews.'
Bologna !!!! God is the same yesterday, today, forevermore, and, what God wrote through inspired men then applies TODAY
Last question: Or, wait, let's deal with those 2 Q's first, as not to confuse you OSAS folks too much
Also, sorry OSAS , since when does IMPOSSIBLE not mean IMPOSSIBLE ?
Now, let's analyze that heart of the 'apostate' person or is this impossible to do? God can, of course, but how, again can a given person know another's heart and their relationship with God?
God sees righteousness in an upright heart and corruption in a corrupt heart.
Sin starts in the heart then it becomes manifested or spoken. Even though it doesn't become manifested for people to see, God sees the heart. A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh (Luke 6:45).
Heb 3:12- Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
I believe Heb 6:4-6 is talking about apostasy, a very frightening state which starts in the heart
. They are at a point in their spiritual lives where they have no desire coming back to God, are in continual rejection hence it is impossible for them to be brought to repentance. 
This is crafted to sound spiritual but is very deceitful and is designed to catch the believer off guard to get him to consider his position before the Father is not secure or determined through the finished work of Christ but upon whether the believer sins or not in his experience. This is not just deceitful but is a wicked doctrine that is contrary to the cross and blood of Christ and tries to nullify the believer's trust and faith in our complete and total justification through the blood of Christ and places it upon the believer. It is trying to destroy the believer's position in Christ through failure in his experience. Some of you need to speak out against this because you know the truth and you have the conviction that our justification is in the work of the cross and not according to our experience whether it be good or bad. We are saved as sinners by grace who were dead in trespasses and sins and as enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son, much more being reconciled shall we be saved by His life (Rom 5:10).
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Abiding
Guest
since this is merely a cut and past from my thread...ill cut and paste my response.
Possible semantic error:
Our standing or position before God is on Christs merits.
Else we couldnt confess our sins and ask for grace and petitions.
Our state or relationship surely is effected by our walk.
Unconfessed or habitual sin can lead to ruin.
True believers wont listen to teachers who teach that sin is ok.
That job is left to the make-believers.
True believers wont and cant practice sin 1John 5:18
Also their conscience wouldnt let them if they wanted to.
ADD: notice you use the word sin generically.
That makes it clear as mud..possibly causing one to stumble
since we sin daily in word and deed.
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GreenNnice
Guest
God sees righteousness in an upright heart and corruption in a corrupt heart.
Sin starts in the heart then it becomes manifested or spoken. Even though it doesn't become manifested for people to see, God sees the heart. A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh (Luke 6:45).
Heb 3:12- Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
I believe Heb 6:4-6 is talking about apostasy, a very frightening state which starts in the heart
A hardened heart
Like Pharoah. God hardened Pharoah's heart which was only 'hardened' in the first place from Pharoah, who, fell from pride, much like Satan, thinking he could become more powerful than God, pharoah thought he could outlast God (enslaving the Israelites) and his plagues.. God wins, Christ peeps, in fact, praise Your name , Lord, You won 2000 years ago at a place called, 'Calgary.' God works for good, but the wicked can, indeed, not only choose their own doom, but harden themselves so much that God brings them to the wickedest of ends, to display His power reigns and His might is mightier than their might.
Good words, verse, starryfields , Pharoah, indeed, had an evil heart, and, surely Moses tried to get his brother, Ramses (pharoah) to accept Christ. Ah, Christ peeps it's a terrible thing to spite Him, to fall into a real understanding of the living, awesome God we serve. Death from.your wickedness will be that one's end.
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GreenNnice
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Crossfire
Guest
I encourage everyone to read Matthew 12, Romans 8, Galatians 5, 2 Peter 1, 1 John 3 & 4, James 2 & 1 Corinthians 10:13 and tell me if what I'm about to say does not coincide with those chapters.
God's grace is not His willingness to turn a blind eye toward sin but rather divine empower through love to overcome sin. No where in the bible does it teach that one can be saved from sin while still enslaved by sin. That is an Antinomian lie.
Once saved, the bondage of sin and death is broken as one's heart has been regenerated. This doesn't mean that one won't be tempted to sin, it simply means that the believer now has access to everything he or she needs from the Holy Spirit to overcome temptation if that person chooses turns to God in his or her moment crisis. Grace grants us access to God's presence and provision seeing we can do nothing without Him. This is why it is so important that we abide / walk in the Spirit on a daily basis.
Sin is simply the result of one's failure to abide. Willful sin is not the cause of separation from God but rather the result of separation which has already occurred in one's heart before they ever committed the sin. Willful sin is the evidence of a heart that has already given in to idolatry and the desires of this world.
Anything less is Antinomianism and a heresy.
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Crossfire
Guest
Sure we all make mistakes however, there is no excuse for willful, premeditated sin. If a person struggles with habitual sin, regardless of what that sin is, it is because this person either does not understand importance and / or power of abiding on a consistant daily basis. The Apostle Peter states in his second epistle:
My question to you the reader is this... are you going to believe scripture or are you going to believe the traditions of theologians who make allowances for sin and their behavior reflects it?
This passage clearly states that a believer has been given access to everything they needed to live a life of Godliness. Failure to do so is because of a lack of correct knowledge concerning to word of God.
My question to you the reader is this... are you going to believe scripture or are you going to believe the traditions of theologians who make allowances for sin and their behavior reflects it?
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Abiding
Guest
I agree with all of this but one tiny part.
Most true believers problem is not the false teacher or wako theologian.
Many have great preachers and good theology.
Although your correct pointing out the cure..abiding and such.
The mortification of sin in our members is just not as easy as it is to
speak the cure.
Israel didnt leave Egypt and settle in a land of milk and honey overnight
with no instruction and alot of wilderness trials...etc
We dont know squat how to die to ourselves from reading the verse.
Although the answers are quite easy to speak oversimplifying them isnt right.
If people have need to mortify the flesh ...they will need more than willpower
and the Holyspirit. They will need to also grow in knowledge and grace and
the Holyspirit and when the Lord leads them.
He will lead them to battle when He wills. Yes in the meantime they
must stay away from the false gods and activities of the Canaanites.
And obey His commands. But it takes time.
No im not saying we ever sin willfully...but to see a brother sin and say
Hes just not doing this or that right...while it may be true...we may not have
a clue what and when God has him on the docket, for the next battle.
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OFM
Guest
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marianna
Guest
Your post is a lie.
Absolutely antigospel.
Saved from sin (and the penalty for it) while enslaved in it is EXACTLY the Gospel.
Retract your proclamation.
1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus - Ephesians 2
After taking away the stony heart replacing it with a heart of flesh, God begins the work of conforming.
I noticed you leave Jesus Christ suffering and dying, and being raised as pleasing to the Father out of your teachings. You quote yourself often, though.
I perceive you are in the grip of the most horrendous sin one can fear - spiritual pride tin your own righteousness. I assure you you are unrighteous. A consistent arrogance most unsavory.
Good day.
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GreenNnice
Guest
No to 'penance,' Christbro O . you have the power from God to beat sin in you, you do not need to self-punish, abase yourself over a wrong committed. Remember, your sins are covered by the Blood, past, present, future sins, COVERED ! . GO to God when you sin, He is your Loving Father, ask for forgiveness, and, use His power in you (Holy Spirit power) to leavevtyat sin behind.
With His power in you, you are powerful, beyond words, most importantly, faithfully believe the steps you take are His leading. Because 'they' are
God is your Father, IF you accepted Him. You are a son or daughter of God. Scripture, not me, says this Truth. God disciplines His own, maybe you get some chastisement to correct you, or, maybe, worse, scourging or rebuking by Him in you, but TAKE IT LIKE A MAN, and, never penance yourself. God does NOT ever want you to take that guilt and condemnation of your act upon yourself. God does NOT convict you in a guilt-finding way, ever, just corrects us,cscripture states, 'He disciplines His own.'
Remember Romans 8:1 , no condemnation for those IN Christ Jesus. This speaks simply of Him living in you, Christ is in your heart, peeps
. you have the power from God to beat sin in you, you do not need to self-punish, abase yourself over a wrong committed. Remember, your sins are covered by the Blood, past, present, future sins, COVERED ! . GO to God when you sin, He is your Loving Father, ask for forgiveness, and, use His power in you (Holy Spirit power) to leavevtyat sin behind. With His power in you, you are powerful, beyond words, most importantly, faithfully believe the steps you take are His leading. Because 'they' are
God is your Father, IF you accepted Him. You are a son or daughter of God. Scripture, not me, says this Truth. God disciplines His own, maybe you get some chastisement to correct you, or, maybe, worse, scourging or rebuking by Him in you, but TAKE IT LIKE A MAN, and, never penance yourself. God does NOT ever want you to take that guilt and condemnation of your act upon yourself. God does NOT convict you in a guilt-finding way, ever, just corrects us,cscripture states, 'He disciplines His own.'
Remember Romans 8:1 , no condemnation for those IN Christ Jesus. This speaks simply of Him living in you, Christ is in your heart, peeps
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Crossfire
Guest
The concept that one can be saved from sin while enslaved by sin is Antinomianism at it's most lethal. Yes, Christ went to the cross for the forgiveness of sin but why is forgiveness necessary in the first place? So that right fellowship between God and man could be restored, that right fellowship being the indwelling Holy Spirit.
If God turned a blind eye toward sin then why does our sin grieve the Holy Spirit so? Because scripture clearly teaches that he who walks / abides in the Spirit need not fulfill the flesh. When we turn to God in our moment of weakness is when His strength is made perfect.
My sister, please read the scripture you posted previously paying attention to those areas I've made bold. Grace is not God's willingness to ignore sin but His eagerness to overcome it. We are given a choice: Spirit or flesh, life or death. Choose life...
How anyone can embrace a doctrine that makes allowances for sin when scripture plainly states that Christ has provided for everything necessary to live a life of Godliness is simply beyond reason.
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rauleetoe
Guest
amen..exactly..its a new 'other gospel' this over emphasizing of Grace..
yes, there is grace..if you continue in the faith, for you are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God collosians 3:3..and we have been commanded/required to seek after things above,collosians 3:1-2..
in which you once walked(these sins,when you were alive in them) verse 7..
I believe we can live a holy life..its a process, this sanctification..Jesus said, Go and sin no more to the woman caught up in adultery..
john 8:11..
I have to take that literally..
Leviticus 11:45 I am the LORD who brought you up out of Egypt to be your God; therefore be holy, because I am holy.
deut 30:19 This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live..
joshua 24:15
But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD."
You make the choice..
you can serve God, as for me..i will choose to seek after God, and keep on towards this life of perfection..God helps us, it is not works..its simply following after God. Those who say you cannot are merely too focused on their sins and are too sin minded and not holiness minded..
The above poster is on a rampage concerning antinomianism because he does not know or understand the mercy and grace of God in relationship to the death, burial and resurrection of Christ and what was done to sin. He has a problem understanding positional truth and divine imputations that the believer receives BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH which are immutable and irreversible. When the believer is cleansed by the blood of Christ from all sin he is accepted by the Father on that basis and stands justified and perfect before a holy God as a continual state. The believer is presented by the Son, who is our advocate, to the Father through the imputed righteousness of the Son and not upon any of his own righteousness which is based upon the work of Christ and not upon any work of the believing sinner, not even repentance or penance.
There are a number of reasons for what might cause a believer to sin and let's not forget sins of omission and sins of the tongue, or the sin associated with a lack of faith that does not trust in the promises of God's word or to operate in love and wisdom when God has given it. These are all just as much sin as anything we might do outwardly that violates the moral conscience of some who live in the certain moral restraints but have a problem with judging others according to what violates their own consciousness of sin. Some people are so obsessed with the term 'willful sin' that they have to spiritualize it through a convoluted understanding because they don't understand the grace of God and use that term to 'unjustify' the believer, making the blood of Christ count for nothing and judging God to be unfaithful to those He has redeemed and purchased through that shed blood.
What was the willful sin that kept the wealthy young ruler from being saved and inheriting eternal life in (Mk 10:17-27)? Was it not in keeping all the commandments? Was it the wealth he refused to part with and give up? Was it unbelief or the fact that he did not follow Christ? OR was there some secret willful sin that he lived in that we don't know about? The disciples didn't know and Jesus hinted about being trusting in riches. Notice the disciples conclusion and Jesus response to it (v.26.27).
How could we have NT scriptures, inspired by the Holy Spirit, record in (2Pt2:7,8) that Lot was a JUST MAN, when his tendencies where toward Sodom and settled there after leaving his uncle Abraham (Gen 13:9-13). It was Lot's choice and he vexed his RIGHTEOUS SOUL every day with the conduct and conversation of the wicked people of Sodom (v.13). In (Gen 19) these wicked men of Sodom came to Lot's house to take the two men (angels), who entered the city, onto themselves to have sex with them (Sodomize) but in their stead Lot offered to his two daughters, who were virgins, to do with them what seemed good. Do you think this had any thing to do with willful sin on Lot's part when he offered his virgin daughters to these wicked and vile men of Sodom to fulfill their sexual appetites? Did these angels tell Lot that he needed to repent of this wickedness he imagined upon his daughters? Was it a righteous act on Lot's part...
... or when he escaped to Zoar in fear, losing his wife, and fled to the mountains with his daughters and allowed them to get him drunk with wine and unknowingly had incest with both and conceived sons (Moabites and Ammonites)? Where is the righteousness in all these things and was their nothing willful on Lot's part? Did the Holy Spirit's inspiration lead Peter to come to the wrong conclusion by calling him 'JUST LOT' (or justified Lot)? Lot was an example of a believer having God's positional righteousness, even when all these things had taken place as part of his life in Sodom and the surrounding regions.
Can anyone deny these things that are recorded in the scriptures? Are we going to be so ignorant of these things and allow ourselves to be led into arrogance and accuse God of not justifying the believer and securing the believer with His own righteousness imputed by faith and through faith? Are we not complete in Christ and have we not been justified from all sin through the sacrifice of Christ when we believed and trusted in Him? Has not our position in Christ (some 86 times in the book of Ephesians) been secured, sealed, covered, rooted and grounded in the work and shed blood of the new covenant of grace that came through Jesus Christ and Him crucified? Are we going to be foolish believers that do not take upon the faith of the Son of God who died and gave His life for sinners? Are we crucified with Christ or not? Have we been buried with Him or not? Have we been raised with Him or not? And if these things are true. and they are, shall we not be raised up in our bodies and ascend up to put on immortality and incorruption and have new bodies made like unto His glorified body? Shall we let foolish contrived intellectual doctrine take away the hope that we have been given in Christ concerning these things that have been given to the believer by promise and not by merit?