Can someone lose their salvation?

[Crossfire]

I don't see how these two statements are different.

Context people, context.

By picking apart my words you are attempting to add meaning which was never intended.

If your point is that I should use choose my words more wisely then the point is well received however, if you're going to force the issue then I question your motive.

 

[1still_waters]

Context people, context.

By picking apart my words you are attempting to add meaning which was never intended.

If your point is that I should use choose my words more wisely then the point is well received however, if you're going to force the issue then I question your motive.

Maybe it's both?

Sin is a sign we're already far from God.

But sin does also separate us from Him.

Isaiah 59
2 But your iniquities have separated you from your God;
And your sins have hidden His face from you,
So that He will not hear.

 

[Abiding]

Context people, context.

By picking apart my words you are attempting to add meaning which was never intended.

If your point is that I should use choose my words more wisely then the point is well received however, if you're going to force the issue then I question your motive.

Words are important...only in context i agree. Also we can choose wrong words and do a lousy job explaining ourselves. At least i do. So if in the forums, i get called on it then its only fitting for me to explain.

Isnt it ok to explain...rather than deny? Its just a forum, right?

There just happens to be a big difference between saying:

Sin separates us from God which is true relationally....as a believer.

and:

Sin separates us from God. positionally, which has eternal implications.

 

[marianna]

While God's grace is freely given, we can only access that grace through faith. If faith where not the prerequisite of grace, then there was no reason for Christ to come to earth and lay down his life.

But Crossfire (and I apologize for my tone earlier) which of us had faith before the foundation of the world?
Did Paul have faith before he was set apart from his mother's womb?

Faith is not anywhere described as a 'prerequisite for Grace'.

Did Jesus have to wait til men had faith before going to Calvary?

Why are so many people daring to downgrade God's Sovereign Grace?

Grace is an attribute of God.
He is Gracious!

Your post is declaring that our faith is needed before God's attribute, His Gracious Character and Work in His Own Creation and in His Own Plan can be activated. This is so very wrong, dear friend.


Eph 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

6I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed! - Galatians 1

charis: grace, kindness
Original Word: χάρις, ιτος, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: charis
Phonetic Spelling: (khar'-ece)
Short Definition: grace, favor, kindness
Definition: (a) grace, as a gift or blessing brought to man by Jesus Christ, (b) favor, (c) gratitude, thanks, (d) a favor, kindness.

You are saying that our faith is a prerequisite for His favor and kindness.

What this is indicating, is that you believe and teach that faith is not a gift.
Do I understand wrongly?

God gives faith as a means, or channel through which HE builds trust, teaches and sanctifies. It's His method, His channel, His gift, His Plan.

None of it is from us.

 

[marianna]

Words are important...only in context i agree. Also we can choose wrong words and do a lousy job explaining ourselves. At least i do. So if in the forums, i get called on it then its only fitting for me to explain.

Isnt it ok to explain...rather than deny? Its just a forum, right?

There just happens to be a big difference between saying:

Sin separates us from God which is true relationally....as a believer.

and:

Sin separates us from God. positionally, which has eternal implications.

Sin only separates us from God when we refuse to confess our sins, to go to Him to be cleansed.
There is nothing stopping us from doing that.
Except perhaps the ideas that 1) we don't need to confess because we have no sin or 2) we have despaired that we have been cut off and He will not forgive.

Both are wrong.

 

[Abiding]

Sin only separates us from God when we refuse to confess our sins, to go to Him to be cleansed.
There is nothing stopping us from doing that.
Except perhaps the ideas that 1) we don't need to confess because we have no sin or 2) we have despaired that we have been cut off and He will not forgive.

Both are wrong.

Yes and if i didnt see #2 being planted in peoples hearts whether willingly or ignorantly
(matters little to me since im not the judge on mans motives) that can lead men to ruin(temporarly)
Id not have cared to respond to this.

 

[Abiding]

If im not mistaken there is a theology that rejects the idea of a sin nature.
Which in turn looks aside of the fact we have a flesh nature thats at emnity
with God and our new nature. Which the bible says will never go away in this life.

How this theology can sit next to scripture is beyond me.

But the result of this is that all is merely choice. Although the bible
is there to equip us for the battle against our flesh. And teach us how
to mortify the deeds of the flesh the story is streamlined:

We get saved...sin is broke(why this is necessary according to that doctrine i know not), then its easy sailing because each sin is a choice.
Even tho the bible talks about someone taken over in a fault, and how to restore him,
seeing his conscience is tender.

Just tell them that sin is just there to tell them they have left God. hmmmm amazing
That will really restore them.

 

[starfield]

But Crossfire (and I apologize for my tone earlier) which of us had faith before the foundation of the world?
Did Paul have faith before he was set apart from his mother's womb?

Faith is not anywhere described as a 'prerequisite for Grace'.

Did Jesus have to wait til men had faith before going to Calvary?

Why are so many people daring to downgrade God's Sovereign Grace?

Grace is an attribute of God.
He is Gracious!

Your post is declaring that our faith is needed before God's attribute, His Gracious Character and Work in His Own Creation and in His Own Plan can be activated. This is so very wrong, dear friend.


Eph 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

6I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed! - Galatians 1

charis: grace, kindness
Original Word: χάρις, ιτος, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: charis
Phonetic Spelling: (khar'-ece)
Short Definition: grace, favor, kindness
Definition: (a) grace, as a gift or blessing brought to man by Jesus Christ, (b) favor, (c) gratitude, thanks, (d) a favor, kindness.

You are saying that our faith is a prerequisite for His favor and kindness.

What this is indicating, is that you believe and teach that faith is not a gift.
Do I understand wrongly?

God gives faith as a means, or channel through which HE builds trust, teaches and sanctifies. It's His method, His channel, His gift, His Plan.

None of it is from us.

I think what he meant was that the grace that brings salvation was freely provided on the cross but not everyone is saved. Why? Because faith is a prerequisite; we have access to grace by faith. Christ's sacrifice on the cross is only efficient for those who have faith in Him that's why Ephesians 2:8 adds "faith" to the equation.
Rom 5:1- Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 5:2- By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

 

[GreenNnice]

You know, IF I could be 20 again, I would love to have the wisdom of knowledge that this starryfields young lady possesses in her Spirit-filled self !

 

[Crossfire]

You know, IF I could be 20 again, I would love to have the wisdom of knowledge that this starryfields young lady possesses in her Spirit-filled self !

Amen. She not only hit the nail on the head, she drove it into the ground with a single try.

 

[Crossfire]

Sin only separates us from God when we refuse to confess our sins, to go to Him to be cleansed.
There is nothing stopping us from doing that.
Except perhaps the ideas that 1) we don't need to confess because we have no sin or 2) we have despaired that we have been cut off and He will not forgive.

Marianna,

I couldn't agree more with your above statement. However, there are those on these forums who have argued in the past that after salvation repentance is no longer necessary.

 

[Crossfire]

What this is indicating, is that you believe and teach that faith is not a gift.
Do I understand wrongly?

Yes, it does seem that you misunderstand my position. Both Grace & Faith are gifts from God, the evidence of the Holy Spirit @ work in us. The only role man plays in his own salvation is to position himself to receive God's gift through repentance (humility) which is not a work of man but man's response to the inner workings of the Holy Spirit.

As you become more familiar with me, you will find that my views are in fact very Monergistic in nature and in origin however, these views often differ from your stereo-typical Lutheran, Calvinistic or Baptist view. Much personal study, prayer and reflection have resulted in the views I express. If a person has never ventured to study outside of their own preferred doctrine or denomination, they simply will never understand.

 

[Bookends]

Marianna,

I couldn't agree more with your above statement. However, there are those on these forums who have argued in the past that after salvation repentance is no longer necessary.

Necessary for what? our communion with God, or our union with God? Or Both? Do you think that in your repentance you covered every sin you committed? Do you think that in your daily repentance you cover all the sins you may have committed in your ignorance?

Is this one of the reasons why the HS intercedes for us when we pray? I'm not one of the advocates who says we don't need to repent continually, but I am also not one of those who say we need to repent continually for our eternal salvation.

Romans 8:26-28
26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

 

[Crossfire]

Necessary for what? our communion with God, or our union with God? Or Both? Do you think that in your repentance you covered every sin you committed? Do you think that in your daily repentance you cover all the sins you may have committed in your ignorance?

Is this one of the reasons why the HS intercedes for us when we pray? I'm not one of the advocates who says we don't need to repent continually, but I am also not one of those who say we need to repent continually for our eternal salvation.

Romans 8:26-28
26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

I perceive repentance to be more than a single act, deed or work but rather a condition of the heart or quite possibly a way of life. I view sin in a similar fashion, albeit on the opposite end of the spectrum, and reason why I state that the physical act we consider to be sin is but a reflection of what already exists in a man's heart.

Isaiah 57:15

For thus says the high and lofty One—He Who inhabits eternity, Whose name is Holy: I dwell in the high and holy place, but with him also who is of a thoroughly penitent and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble and to revive the heart of the thoroughly penitent [bruised with sorrow for sin].

Isaiah 66:2

For all these things My hand has made, and so all these things have come into being [by and for Me], says the Lord. But this is the man to whom I will look and have regard: he who is humble and of a broken or wounded spirit, and who trembles at My word and reveres My commands.

 

[Bookends]

I think what he meant was that the grace that brings salvation was freely provided on the cross but not everyone is saved. Why? Because faith is a prerequisite; we have access to grace by faith. Christ's sacrifice on the cross is only efficient for those who have faith in Him that's why Ephesians 2:8 adds "faith" to the equation.
Rom 5:1- Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 5:2- By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

maybe I don't quite understand the equation but what good would our faith be if grace was never offered?

 

[Crossfire]

maybe I don't quite understand the equation but what good would our faith be if grace was never offered?

According to a variety of scripture, you can not have one without the other. They are so intertwined that it is impossible to separate the two.

However, the two are distinct from one another. One major distinction being that faith always demands a response. Repentance being an example of such.

 

[Red33]

According to a variety of scripture, you can not have one without the other. They are so intertwined that it is impossible to separate the two.

However, the two are distinct from one another. One major distinction being that faith always demands a response. Repentance being an example of such.

Your posts are full of notions that have nothing to do with the nature of who God is and what He has provided through His Son. Faith is the substance of things hoped for and provides encouragement, edification and comfort through the Spirit and through the scriptures. The words of promise that we have been given produce faith in our spirit to edify us in the truth and to build us up as a habitation of God through the Spirit. The words of faith that builds us up, gives us a capacity to receive the things of God. The only response that God is looking for as we walk by faith is one of trust and dependence upon Him because He is faithful to what He has promised through the word.

There is no condition or perquisite of repentance mandated to receive grace from God by faith. When we hear the word and the Spirit convicts our heart and imparts a measure of faith for us to trust Him for, at that point we agree with God and put on Christ through the truth that we have heard. That is how the goodness and grace of God grants repentance to the believer by renewing and transforming his mind with the thoughts of God that gives him the mind of Christ.

 

[Bookends]

According to a variety of scripture, you can not have one without the other. They are so intertwined that it is impossible to separate the two.

However, the two are distinct from one another. One major distinction being that faith always demands a response. Repentance being an example of such.

Without grace you can still have faith, a false faith. Without faith, you make grace annul.

 

[Jon4TheCross]

I only have a phone to type with, so this will have to be short. Romans 7 tells us that when I would do good, evil is present with me. Even if you don't know it, when you're born again (1John 5:1, 4:2) you are a part of God, a holy spirit by measure which can eventually not be under the power of any but The Holy Spirit of The Right Hand of The Father. Jesus is from heaven, and so a part of us is also from heaven, and that is the Light that we are made of. We are all equally not able to boast, because every good and perfect gift is from above, and comes from the Father of lights. A Christian is from heaven, the outer man is dead or dying, and a child of God is not male or female. I don't even know my real name. So lets try to not be under the power of any, and keep in mind that there is blaspheme of the Holy Spirit, and the mark of the beast that are not forgiveable. Hebrews 6:4-6 gives us an idea on the gifts required to have the ability to blaspheme the Holy Spirit. I personally see that it is the grace of God in us that makes us eternal, and I really don't think many at all will even have the ability to blaspheme the Holy Spirit. Just don't take any marks, really work at loving God (because you can), and know that you are actually from heaven, we're almost all less than an hour old in the eyes of the Lord (83.33333 years with us is an hour with God). God knows why evil gets to have their reward, and He doesn't blame us for sin, but hopefully we do not love it.
I love you all.

 

[Crossfire]

Your posts are full of notions that have nothing to do with the nature of who God is and what He has provided through His Son. Faith is the substance of things hoped for and provides encouragement, edification and comfort through the Spirit and through the scriptures. The words of promise that we have been given produce faith in our spirit to edify us in the truth and to build us up as a habitation of God through the Spirit. The words of faith that builds us up, gives us a capacity to receive the things of God. The only response that God is looking for as we walk by faith is one of trust and dependence upon Him because He is faithful to what He has promised through the word.

There is no condition or perquisite of repentance mandated to receive grace from God by faith. When we hear the word and the Spirit convicts our heart and imparts a measure of faith for us to trust Him for, at that point we agree with God and put on Christ through the truth that we have heard. That is how the goodness and grace of God grants repentance to the believer by renewing and transforming his mind with the thoughts of God that gives him the mind of Christ.

Why would one repent without the hope of being forgiven? What is the purpose of forgiveness?

The problem Red is that you perceive forgiveness as the end to a means when in truth it is the means to an end. According to your logic, fellowship with God is given so that one might obtain forgiveness however, scripture states that forgiveness is given to obtain fellowship with God. You completely overlook the fact that when one matures to a point where they value intimacy with God more than intimacy with sin, bondage to sin is broken. This is the true essence & power of grace.