Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Magenta]

Pelagian heretics insist man is inherently good. From within the hearts of men come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, wickedness, deceit, debauchery, envy, slander, arrogance, and foolishness. Mark 7 verses 21-22 Every inclination of man's heart is evil from his youth. Genesis 8 verse 21b Who can bring out clean from unclean? No one! Job 14 verse 4 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Matthew 7 verse 18

 

[BillyBob]

Why do we pray for the salvation of certain people, unless we also believe that God has the power to bring it about?

 

[Magenta]

Yes, just like baptism for the dead.

Actually it just looks like he admitted he has been arguing for months against something he does not even understand.

Which is disappointing to discover how few Christians understand being made alive in Christ.

But I already knew that as well, for many times I have mentioned how FWers ascribe
to the natural (unregenerate) man what is only possibly for the spiritual man.

 

[Magenta]

This might help some of you understand who the natural man is (from gotquestions.org). One can always hope!

What does Paul mean when he writes of the natural man?

In 1 Corinthians 2:6-16, the natural man is compared to the spiritual man and the carnal man. Verse 14 says, “A natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised” (NASB). This verse does not define the natural man, as such; rather, it uses the term to describe one who does not understand God’s words and thoughts. The one who can understand God’s words is a “spiritual” man (verse 15).

Dr. Henry Morris, in the New Defender’s Study Bible, gives this comment on verse 14: “The ‘natural’ man, still unsaved, cannot appreciate spiritual truths. He must first understand Christ’s atoning sacrifice for him, but even that is ‘foolishness’ to him (1:18) until the Holy Spirit Himself convicts him of its reality (John 16:7-11).” Basically, the “natural” man is one who does not have the Holy Spirit residing within him. As Jesus said, “Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit” (John 3:6).

In 1 Corinthians 2, Paul uses the word natural to refer to someone still in his original (sinful) state. The Greek word psuchikos (“natural”) can be defined as “animal,” as opposed to “spiritual.” Natural men are those who are occupied with the things of this material world to the exclusion of the things of God. They are led by instinct rather than by the Spirit of God. They intuitively choose sin over righteousness. They are the “pagans” Jesus refers to in Matthew 6:32 who only seek after the things of this world.

The supernatural work of God is to change the natural man into a spiritual one.

 

[GWH]

This might help some of you understand who the natural man is (from gotquestions.org). One can always hope!

What does Paul mean when he writes of the natural man?

In 1 Corinthians 2:6-16, the natural man is compared to the spiritual man and the carnal man. Verse 14 says, “A natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised” (NASB). This verse does not define the natural man, as such; rather, it uses the term to describe one who does not understand God’s words and thoughts. The one who can understand God’s words is a “spiritual” man (verse 15).

Dr. Henry Morris, in the New Defender’s Study Bible, gives this comment on verse 14: “The ‘natural’ man, still unsaved, cannot appreciate spiritual truths. He must first understand Christ’s atoning sacrifice for him, but even that is ‘foolishness’ to him (1:18) until the Holy Spirit Himself convicts him of its reality (John 16:7-11).” Basically, the “natural” man is one who does not have the Holy Spirit residing within him. As Jesus said, “Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit” (John 3:6).

In 1 Corinthians 2, Paul uses the word natural to refer to someone still in his original (sinful) state. The Greek word psuchikos (“natural”) can be defined as “animal,” as opposed to “spiritual.” Natural men are those who are occupied with the things of this material world to the exclusion of the things of God. They are led by instinct rather than by the Spirit of God. They intuitively choose sin over righteousness. They are the “pagans” Jesus refers to in Matthew 6:32 who only seek after the things of this world.

The supernatural work of God is to change the natural man into a spiritual one. When a person trusts Christ, God exchanges what is natural (received from Adam) for what is spiritual (received from Christ). “As in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive” (1 Corinthians 15:22). The Christian life is, therefore, a supernatural one. We do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit (Romans 8:1).

For the umpteenth time: the disagreement is not about the natural/sinful man,
but whether God loves all natural men and includes every sinner in His POS--
IOW: TULIP.

 

[Magenta]

For the umpteenth time: the disagreement is not about the natural/sinful man,
but whether God loves all natural men and includes every sinner in His POS--
IOW: TULIP.

The unregenerate is incapable of understanding the gospel and will not decide to believe what he considers foolishness.

You and your cronies disagree with what Scripture says on this matter.

And for the umpteenth time, I already know we see things differently.

Stick that in your pipe and smoke it. And stop lying.

The topic is whether man's will is free. Go read the thread title.

You keep inserting your own dishonest agenda.

 

[Magenta]

For the umpteenth time: the disagreement is not about the natural/sinful man,

And yet you felt compelled to comment on multiple posts concerning that very thing. How dishonest are you, really???

Too ridiculous really that after 103 pages you try to say the topic is something else.

 

[Magenta]

Scripture attests that everyone born of God overcomes the world.

FW proponents say man overcomes the world and then they are born of God.

Calvinist Derangement Syndrome types hate people who affirm these types of Bible truths.

They seem totally ignorant of the fact that man's inability is not exclusive to Calvinism.

They must love their ignorance. They sure show they have no desire to learn.

 

[GWH]

The unregenerate is incapable of understanding the gospel and will not decide to believe what he considers foolishness.

You and your cronies disagree with what Scripture says on this matter.

And for the umpteenth time, I already know we see things differently.

Stick that in your pipe and smoke it. And stop lying.

The topic is whether man's will is free. Go read the thread title.

You keep inserting your own dishonest agenda.

The unregenerate is capable of realizing his foolishness and repenting of rejecting the gospel.
You and your cronies disagree with what Scripture supporting this view says on this matter.
We agree that we disagree regarding whose understanding is correct.
I don't smoke, lie and employ ad hominems.
We agree that the topic is whether sinners have/exercise MFW.
I share my honest opinion and apologize again for offending you, and you are pejorative instead of forgiving.

 

[studier]

On the other hand, one of your favored translations reads for v.5:

John 1:5
5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
NKJV

Are you still trying to figure out what or who the "darkness" is?

What I’m first trying to do is understand why your preferred translation is not current. It’s easy to see why you used it and what your agenda is. It’s just another “T” agenda, but there’s way more going on in those verses and in GJohn than meets with your agenda.

Firstly, as for translations, they’re divided because the word you’re hoping to use easily has at least two meanings with "understood" being a bit more figurative.

Your older NIV (78 or 84) went with “understood” and the updated version (2011) changed to “overcome”. The NET version in dealing with the ambiguity went with “mastered” to try to maintain some of the ambiguity in the sense of double meanings, which John is well known for, and which will likely tie to different concepts with John.

As for your question: “What exactly is this "darkness" that didn't comprehend the light?” I’m sure you’ll have a version that meets with your agenda, as can already be seen by your making sure you use “understood" (which you changed to or used synonymously with "comprehend”) vs. “overcome” but darkness refers to several things, e.g. sin, evil, ignorance, judgment, etc., so if you want to be more specific maybe I and/or others will unpack your agenda as usual.

I do notice that you’re focusing on this darkness agenda within a couple verses that also includes the following, so maybe you can be fair and grace us with your explanation of how this may or may not compare to God’s universal provision for all of mankind:

4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome/understood it. (Jn. 1:4-5 NIV)

 

[studier]

Why do we pray for the salvation of certain people, unless we also believe that God has the power to bring it about?

Because He has more knowledge, wisdom and tools of persuasion than we do.

 

[Kroogz]

Not at all. Gazillions of people have knowledge of God's existence while simultaneously perishing because they KNOW NOT God in a personal, intimate, filial, covenant way. Only the living can know God in the manner I just described.

Anymore gems of "wisdom" for us?

That makes about as much sense as calvie doctrine.

 

[Magenta]

As for your question: “What exactly is this "darkness" that didn't comprehend the light?” I’m sure you’ll have a version that meets with your agenda, as can already be seen by your making sure you use “understood" (which you changed to or used synonymously with "comprehend”) vs. “overcome” but darkness refers to several things, e.g. sin, evil, ignorance, judgment, etc., so if you want to be more specific maybe I and/or others will unpack your agenda as usual.

I do notice that you’re focusing on this darkness agenda within a couple verses that also includes the following, so maybe you can be fair and grace us with your explanation of how this may or may not compare to God’s universal provision for all of mankind:

4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome/understood it. (Jn. 1:4-5 NIV)

You were once darkness. Nice going refuting your own position again.

 

[BillyBob]

The unregenerate is capable of realizing his foolishness and repenting of rejecting the gospel.

The sad fact is that you have not accepted what scripture teaches concerning the depravity of man. His depravity is so severe that he is unable to seek God. He may truly believe that God does in fact exist, but has no desire for the things of God. His love is for earthly things not heavenly things. Therefore, he follows his heart's desire.
There are many scriptures that speak to this truth, but you refuse to believe what is written. You think more highly of fallen man than you ought!
Scripture does in fact teach what is required to be saved. However, there is absolutely no scripture which proclaims that we have retained the ability to do it.
The ability to please God was lost in the fall, and will only be restored when brought to God by the HS. Adam had the ability to choose to obey or not.
Please show me one place in scripture which indicates that we have the ability to turn to God. There are some that speak of the requirements but none that proclaim man's ability to fulfill them.
I will not repeat them here, but look back through Magenta's panels and read all the places that scripture proclaims this lost ability.

And, please read it with an open mind! This is not a Calvin thing, it's the teaching of scripture.

 

[GWH]

The sad fact is that you have not accepted what scripture teaches concerning the depravity of man. His depravity is so severe that he is unable to seek God. He may truly believe that God does in fact exist, but has no desire for the things of God. His love is for earthly things not heavenly things. Therefore, he follows his heart's desire.
There are many scriptures that speak to this truth, but you refuse to believe what is written. You think more highly of fallen man than you ought!
Scripture does in fact teach what is required to be saved. However, there is absolutely no scripture which proclaims that we have retained the ability to do it.
The ability to please God was lost in the fall, and will only be restored when brought to God by the HS. Adam had the ability to choose to obey or not.
Please show me one place in scripture which indicates that we have the ability to turn to God. There are some that speak of the requirements but none that proclaim man's ability to fulfill them.
I will not repeat them here, but look back through Magenta's panels and read all the places that scripture proclaims this lost ability.

And, please read it with an open mind! This is not a Calvin thing, it's the teaching of scripture.

Okay, you seem more congenial than some tulipists I have met on CC, so I am willing to discuss this issue if you are,
so please present your Scriptures one at a time. I have already shared many of those that indicate MFW, but perhaps
you were not on CC and did not see them. If you would peruse our website, I don't think you would worry about me
not having an open mind. Probably some would think it is too open!
TTYL

 

[Magenta]

The sad fact is that you have not accepted what scripture teaches concerning the depravity of man. His depravity is so severe that he is unable to seek God. He may truly believe that God does in fact exist, but has no desire for the things of God. His love is for earthly things not heavenly things. Therefore, he follows his heart's desire.
There are many scriptures that speak to this truth, but you refuse to believe what is written. You think more highly of fallen man than you ought!
Scripture does in fact teach what is required to be saved. However, there is absolutely no scripture which proclaims that we have retained the ability to do it.
The ability to please God was lost in the fall, and will only be restored when brought to God by the HS. Adam had the ability to choose to obey or not.
Please show me one place in scripture which indicates that we have the ability to turn to God. There are some that speak of the requirements but none that proclaim man's ability to fulfill them.
I will not repeat them here, but look back through Magenta's panels and read all the places that scripture proclaims this lost ability.

And, please read it with an open mind! This is not a Calvin thing, it's the teaching of scripture.

Those with CDS have a hard time seeing past their nose, and asking an open mind of them is really probably
expecting too much! Some think it hilarious when it is pointed out someone does not believe what Scripture says
when you can place it right in front of their face, and they will contradict and deny what it plainly says in favour of
their opinion, vain philosophy, and/or tradition of man which to be sure has zero verses in the Bible to support it.
They are so deceived that they think man's inability is taught exclusively in Calvinism. They don't care for truth.
They will say everyone hears when Jesus said otherwise, then they claim that only applies to Jews like they are
not flesh and blood just like us, when the whole world is blinded to the truth, hearing the gospel as foolishness.
It is HID from them, this is explicitly stated, not comprehended at all yet they say man will choose to believe
that which is nonsense to him from that state of being hostile in his mind to God. It really is amazing to see
so much twisting in the wind when these verses are pointed out to them and then they say, oh, what about
the verses we give? When absolutely none of them express the idea of the unregenerate man choosing to believe.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

He’s never changed he’s always spoken his word to man telling them about good and evil and the results of each and then offers them the choice to live and not die

he doesn’t change

To the very last day of anyone repents and believes the gospel they’ll be saved if they refuse to they won’t be because of thier own choice when given the truth of the information found in the gospel

the fact that we have the Scriptures is evidence of God reaching out to mankind.

Then we've got God's people who are to go, stand, speak ... how many of us hesitate when it comes to speaking God's Word to the downtrodden and brokenhearted? God's Word spoken from the lips of the believer brings deliverance and healing. The mission field is all around us ... in our neighborhoods, at our job sites, grocery stores, places we go to work out ... etc., etc. God's people stopping their own mouths is not a good thing.


Psalm 107:17-21

17 Fools because of their transgression, and because of their iniquities, are afflicted.

18 Their soul abhorreth all manner of meat; and they draw near unto the gates of death.

19 Then they cry unto the LORD in their trouble, and he saveth them out of their distresses.

20 He sent his word, and healed them, and delivered them from their destructions.

21 Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men!
.

 

[Magenta]

Because He has more knowledge, wisdom and tools of persuasion than we do.

Yet FWers will say God is not required. No help needed! Spiritual revelation is unnecessary. Not required at all.

I am sure none of that is news to Jesus, even though it contradicts things He explicitly stated. "Nothing new under the sun."

Not to mention the FWers who claim God persuading people amounts to Him forcing them to believe.

Yes it really is ridiculous the things FWers say.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

the fact that we have the Scriptures is evidence of God reaching out to mankind.

Then we've got God's people who are to go, stand, speak ... how many of us hesitate when it comes to speaking God's Word to the downtrodden and brokenhearted? God's Word spoken from the lips of the believer brings deliverance and healing. The mission field is all around us ... in our neighborhoods, at our job sites, grocery stores, places we go to work out ... etc., etc. God's people stopping their own mouths is not a good thing.


Psalm 107:17-21

17 Fools because of their transgression, and because of their iniquities, are afflicted.

18 Their soul abhorreth all manner of meat; and they draw near unto the gates of death.

19 Then they cry unto the LORD in their trouble, and he saveth them out of their distresses.

20 He sent his word, and healed them, and delivered them from their destructions.

21 Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men!
.

“the fact that we have the Scriptures is evidence of God reaching out to mankind.”

right that’s been throughout mans history he’s always been there reaching out with his word .

“Then we've got God's people who are to go, stand, speak ... how many of us hesitate when it comes to speaking God's Word to the downtrodden and brokenhearted?”

provably a lot of believers

“God's people stopping their own mouths is not a good thing.”

as long as they first listen to the lords word applicable to themselves and are sharing that word . agreed

“He sent his word, and healed them, and delivered them from their destructions.”

Yes amen that’s the point what he does to save man is speak his word telling us the truth and bidding us to believe him and respond in faith

 

[cv5]

the fact that we have the Scriptures is evidence of God reaching out to mankind.

Then we've got God's people who are to go, stand, speak ... how many of us hesitate when it comes to speaking God's Word to the downtrodden and brokenhearted? God's Word spoken from the lips of the believer brings deliverance and healing. The mission field is all around us ... in our neighborhoods, at our job sites, grocery stores, places we go to work out ... etc., etc. God's people stopping their own mouths is not a good thing.


Psalm 107:17-21

17 Fools because of their transgression, and because of their iniquities, are afflicted.

18 Their soul abhorreth all manner of meat; and they draw near unto the gates of death.

19 Then they cry unto the LORD in their trouble, and he saveth them out of their distresses.

20 He sent his word, and healed them, and delivered them from their destructions.

21 Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men!
.

Crying out to the Lord and getting an answer can't ever happen in the super-determinist economy. Lost sheep NEVER get saved nor do prodigal sons.

You either were pre-born selected or you are eternally doomed with zero remedy.

Of course this is an abhorrent misrepresentation of the always good willing to forgive God Who tender loving heart is seen here:

[Luk 15:18-20 KJV]

18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,

19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.

19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.

20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.

***************************
Aaaaand of course his repentance was the product of his own FREE WILL....
NOT some preposterous bizarre pre-birth programming scam.

[Mat 21:28-30 KJV]

28 But what think ye? A [certain] man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.

29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.

30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I [go], sir: and went not.