Can We Really Exercise Free Will?
- Thread starter LifelongLearner
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians ch 2 v 14
Romans informs us in many ways that the natural man cannot do what free willers claim he can.
Romans 8 v 5-9 Those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.
CALVINISM says fallen man can do nothing but remain spiritually dead unless first regenerated.
SCRIPTURE TEACHES:
creation reveals God,
conscience bears witness,
Christ enlightens ALL,
the Spirit convicts the world,
Christ draws all men,
and the gospel is God’s power unto salvation because they can chose to believe.
SCRIPTURE TEACHES:
creation reveals God,
conscience bears witness,
Christ enlightens ALL,
the Spirit convicts the world,
Christ draws all men,
and the gospel is God’s power unto salvation because they can chose to believe.
Is that about rich guy giving up their to follow Jesus? . And disciples inquired ,who can be saved? .I'm pretty sure they Asked because there was many rich people around .
Another one who clearly isn't the sharpest tool in the box, your comment confuses choice with free will. Choice is an element of free will but in our fallen state, it's impossible for us to exercise it as there are up to 8 billion people who can put the kibosh on our CHOICE!
As i've said previously , i do think we were created with free will, hence why Adam and Eve could make choices which led to our fallen state.
Oops, should have said it's impossible for us to exercise free will. If it affects others, we're dependent on their agreement, if you think that's free will, sure you'd love to buy this gorgeous bridge in London i'm selling at a bargain price.
Wot.
Are you CCers even talking about
While we were yet sinners, God loved us.
Jesus sets the captives free. When were we captive? When we were a slave to sin (had no free will) How does Jesus set us free? By His grace.
Slaves are not free, they are bound to their boss.
Most of the OT and NT is referring to the elect i.e the Chosen ones - the Hebrews.God chose them out of all the other peoples of the world to be his special holy nation. They didn't have a choice in the matter, even if they didn't want to follow Him, didn't want to believe, he made a covenant that became their birthright.
Then Jesus comes along and sets people free...so they can follow Him. This is why there's a NEW covenant. And those of us who weren't 'The chosen' ie. Gentiles can also be set from sin to follow Him (whoseover believeth) so really it is free will on behalf of Jesus who does the act of setting the captives free.
When you were a slave to sin, did you really have a choice? No. After Jesus freed you did you realise you now had a choice to follow him or not? I think most people found they do. Also when Jesus gives us the gift of the Holy Spirit, He emboldens or empowers us to make good choices. We can then exercise our freedom!!
So that is our free will. Jesus give that to believers, by his Grace. He is able to divinely change our hearts and draw us closer to God.
Sorry if this sounds like mansplaining, but I am also trying to explain it to myself, because I *know* I have been set free - Praise the Lord!
Are you CCers even talking about
While we were yet sinners, God loved us.
Jesus sets the captives free. When were we captive? When we were a slave to sin (had no free will) How does Jesus set us free? By His grace.
Slaves are not free, they are bound to their boss.
Most of the OT and NT is referring to the elect i.e the Chosen ones - the Hebrews.God chose them out of all the other peoples of the world to be his special holy nation. They didn't have a choice in the matter, even if they didn't want to follow Him, didn't want to believe, he made a covenant that became their birthright.
Then Jesus comes along and sets people free...so they can follow Him. This is why there's a NEW covenant. And those of us who weren't 'The chosen' ie. Gentiles can also be set from sin to follow Him (whoseover believeth) so really it is free will on behalf of Jesus who does the act of setting the captives free.
When you were a slave to sin, did you really have a choice? No. After Jesus freed you did you realise you now had a choice to follow him or not? I think most people found they do. Also when Jesus gives us the gift of the Holy Spirit, He emboldens or empowers us to make good choices. We can then exercise our freedom!!
So that is our free will. Jesus give that to believers, by his Grace. He is able to divinely change our hearts and draw us closer to God.
Sorry if this sounds like mansplaining, but I am also trying to explain it to myself, because I *know* I have been set free - Praise the Lord!
Ah,
We are supposed to be willing slaves to Him now?
There is no such thing as a believer. The word is a mistranslation.
Tulip is a philosophical distortion of the scripture.
The gospel is stated by the apostle Paul below.
1 Corinthians 15:1-6
Now I make known to you, brothers and sisters, the gospel which I preached to you, which you also received, in which you also stand, by which you also are saved, if you hold firmly to the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. For I handed down to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. After that He appeared to more than five hundred brothers and sisters at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also.
We make choices every day.
The concept of freewill and determinism is not really understood by mankind.
Inquisitor, you are pulling a classic semantic stunt. You lift the historic, narrative summary of the cross from 1 Corinthians 15:1–6, and you pretend that because the acronym "TULIP" isn't explicitly spelled out in the text, the reality isn't true. Let’s do some strict, honest exegesis of Paul's words and expose how you completely empty the cross of its legal power.
You quote Paul stating the core of the Gospel: “that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures.”
Let's apply some strict legal realism to that statement. What does it actually mean for Christ to die "for our sins"?
In the Greek text, the word for "for" is hyper—which means in the room of, in the stead of, or as a literal legal substitute for. And who is the pronoun "our" restricting it to? Look at 1 Corinthians 1:2. Paul explicitly defines his audience: “Unto the church of God... called to be saints.”
Let's look at the unyielding legal timeline of this text:
If Jesus Christ stood on that cross 2,000 years ago as the literal legal Substitute (hyper) for the specific sins of His Church, then by His death, He must have actually paid their debt, canceled their indictment, and made a total end of their sins! (Daniel 9:24, Colossians 2:14).
Now, let’s look at your conditional theology. Your system claims that Christ died for the sins of every single individual human being on earth, yet millions of those exact same people burn in hell for eternity.
If that is true, then Christ's death did not actually pay for their sins! His substitutionary work failed. You are the one turning the Gospel into a "philosophical distortion"—a weak, impotent, provisional proposal where Christ tried to save everyone but couldn't finalize the legal transaction until man performed an act of faith.
You point to verse 2—“if you hold firmly”—trying to smuggle human conditions and free-will leverage back into salvation.
But why does a child of God hold firmly? Because they are a cooperating freewill agent? No! They hold firmly because they are the Master's wheat (Matthew 13), the Shepherd's sheep (John 10), whose faith was purchased by the blood of the covenant and sovereignly worked inside their souls by the Holy Spirit! (Hebrews 13:21). They don't believe to get born again; they believe and hold firmly because they have been born of God (1 John 5:1).
TULIP is not an invention or a distortion; it is simply the precise, scriptural anatomy of the very cross Paul is preaching:
- Total Depravity is why Christ had to die for dead corpses.
- Unconditional Election is the source of the "our" in the text.
- Limited Atonement is the absolute legal efficacy of His substitute death.
- Irresistible Grace is the sovereign quickening of the Spirit based on His resurrection.
- Perseverance is the reason they stand and cannot be lost.
When I say TULIP is the Gospel, I am defending the fact that the cross actually worked/saved. You want a generic, flat gospel that offers a failed cross to everyone and leaves the final hinge up to human pride. Stop sentimentalizing 1 Corinthians 15, accept the strict substitutionary grammar of the Holy Spirit, and bow to a Savior who actually finished the transgression!
What...how can we not be believers?
You need to check out the rediscovering pisteuo thread. It's either on the main page or the next one down.
God did not elect only ethnic Hebrews under the Old Covenant. Election and the Covenant of Grace have always included a mixed multitude of elect individuals from both Jews and Gentiles across all eras, though the administration and outward scope of the covenant changed over time.
There is only one way of salvation by grace through faith in Christ from the fall of Adam onward. Old Testament believers outside of ethnic Israel—such as Rahab, Ruth, and Naaman—were saved by the same faith and included in the same spiritual family.
Jesus did not come to grant autonomous "free will" so that Gentiles could freely choose to follow Him. Instead, the Bible teaches that human wills are naturally bound to sin. Christ frees the Gentiles from this spiritual bondage through monergistic regeneration—meaning God sovereignly changes the heart and grants faith, rather than leaving salvation to human choice.
Fallen humans (both Jews and Gentiles) love sin and cannot choose spiritual good on their own. The unregenerate will is not neutral; it is enslaved to a sinful nature. Apart from God's prior action, no one naturally desires or decides to follow God.
Under the New Covenant, the dividing wall between Jew and Gentile is broken down, and Gentiles are fully included as co-heirs of the promise. Freedom in the New Covenant means being liberated from the guilt and mastery of sin, not gaining autonomous self-determination.
When God brings a Gentile into the New Covenant, the Holy Spirit overcomes their deadness and makes them willing to believe. God works in them "both to will and to work".