SERVANTS
Do you not know what the difference is between a slave and a servant.
huh
Or what a believer is?
Can We Really Exercise Free Will?
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Do you not know what the difference is between a slave and a servant.
huh
Or what a believer is?
Rahab and Ruth married Israelites.
Naaman became a believer after miraculous healing. Eg set free from a skin disease. What was dead (the skin) became alive and healed. God didn't MAKE Naaman willing to believe, as he was ready to do that all on his own if God came to him. God through Elisha I think it was had to tell him to DO something - wash in the river 7 times. Remember he didn't want to. Only after he was healed did Naaman really believe.
I would ague that Christ's freedom isn't liberation from guilt or mastery of sin..that's just grace. The ability to say NO to sin and Yes to God and cultivate the fruits of the Holy Spirit is a gift. We just need to yield and that's the part that is US, its not ALL God otherwise, we just would be instant Christians already resurrected and living forever. Does not happen that way.
God can't MAKE me want to do something, but He can help me and comfort me when I ask Him and to give me strength to do the things He wants me to do.
But yea, sometimes its semantics but really you go by your own experience of being a Christian, being born again and following Him etc. He does give us freedom, which is autonomy. We can say Yes to Jesus and NO to sin. Believers make these choices every single day. Only you can make these choice, God can't make it for you - but He can give you clarity and guide you to the right choices.
The thing that is predestined is actually God wanting His creation made in His image i.e us humans, to enjoy Him and the Kingdom of heaven. He will open the doors to those who believe. And whosever believes. i.e Any of us.
When we tell the gospel to people, we can show them the way, which is Jesus. If they don't already know.
When we tell the gospel to people, we can show them the way, which is Jesus. If they don't already know.
Also remember Ruth made a CHOICE to follow God after going with Naomi - And God showed His kindness toward her through Naomi and Boaz
And of course Rahab had heard about God through others who talked about Him parting the Red Sea for the Israelites, who she let stay in her establishment as spies, she was otherwise a madam. She made the choice to believe too after hearing about the miracle and God's power (and also His love for his people, willing to rescue them)
And of course Rahab had heard about God through others who talked about Him parting the Red Sea for the Israelites, who she let stay in her establishment as spies, she was otherwise a madam. She made the choice to believe too after hearing about the miracle and God's power (and also His love for his people, willing to rescue them)
No we got that sorted who wants to play the ACRONYM game?
You can choose to, or not. Up to you. It's in miscellaneous forum. I need some help with some acronyms
You can choose to, or not. Up to you. It's in miscellaneous forum. I need some help with some acronyms
I've taken the time to put up a thread that answers your questions.
It's called rediscovering pisteuo and it's currently on the second page.
If your still teachable, check it out.
Don't need to, Ima believer not an unbeliever.
Your theology/philosophy is confused.
Christ sacrificed Himself according to the law strictly for the nation of Israel (Romans 9:1-5).
The Gentiles were grafted into the root (Christ) at a later date (Acts 10).
There are two groups identified in the letter to the Romans, that is, Israel and the Gentiles (Romans 9:25-26).
Paul is not explaining TULIP in Romans rather Paul is telling everyone why Israel failed to achieve righteousness.
Talking about the salvation of any individual when referring to the letter to the Romans, is erroneous.
You are misunderstanding the context of the letter to the Romans, therefore, your argument is in valid.
Let AI read the letter to the Romans and specify what the context is that Paul is discussing.
From the context alone
Romans 7–11 repeatedly emphasizes:
- Faith versus works (9:30–32; 10:3–10).
- Salvation offered to "whosoever" believes (10:11–13).
- Israel's stumbling through unbelief (9:32; 11:20).
- The possibility of restoration through faith (11:23).
- God's faithfulness to His promises concerning Israel (11:1–29).
Therefore, the surrounding context does not explicitly teach the later Calvinistic doctrine that God unconditionally predestines particular individuals to salvation and passes over the rest.
At the same time, Romans 9–11 certainly affirms God's sovereignty:
So the context clearly teaches God's sovereign freedom, but it also repeatedly explains human exclusion in terms of unbelief and inclusion in terms of faith.
From Romans 7–11 alone, Paul appears to be defending God's faithfulness to His promises and explaining the place of Israel and the Gentiles in God's redemptive plan, while consistently identifying faith and unbelief as the immediate reasons people stand or fall.
To deny the free will requirement to ENTER INTO the New Covenant with fully informed consent is to proffer heresy.
1Co 15:1 - Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received G3880, and wherein ye stand;
1Co 15:3 - For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, G3880 how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
G3880 - paralambanō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)
G3880 - παραλαμβάνω paralambánō, par-al-am-ban'-o; from and ; to receive near, i.e. associate with oneself (in any familiar or intimate act or relation); by analogy, to assume an office; figuratively, to learn:—receive, take (unto, with).
www.blueletterbible.org
G2983 - lambanō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)
G2983 - λαμβάνω lambánō, lam-ban'-o; a prolonged form of a primary verb, which is use only as an alternate in certain tenses; to take (in very many applications, literally and figuratively (properly objective or active, to get hold of; whereas is rather subjective or passive, to have offered...
www.blueletterbible.org
to take
to take with the hand, lay hold of, any person or thing in order to use it
to take up a thing to be carried
to take upon one's self
to take in order to carry away
without the notion of violence, i,e to remove, take away
to take what is one's own, to take to one's self, to make one's own
to claim, procure, for one's self
to associate with one's self as companion, attendant
of that which when taken is not let go, to seize, to lay hold of, apprehend
to take by craft (our catch, used of hunters, fisherman, etc.), to circumvent one by fraud
to take to one's self, lay hold upon, take possession of, i.e. to appropriate to one's self
catch at, reach after, strive to obtain
to take a thing due, to collect, gather (tribute)
to take
to admit, receive
to receive what is offered
not to refuse or reject
to receive a person, give him access to one's self,
to regard any one's power, rank, external circumstances, and on that account to do some injustice or neglect something
to take, to choose, select
to take beginning, to prove anything, to make a trial of, to experience
to receive (what is given), to gain, get, obtain, to get back
Inquisitor, you have constructed a beautiful corporate smoke screen, but it completely suffocates the moment we expose it to the text. You want to claim that Romans 9–11 is strictly about corporate nations and that dealing with individual salvation is "erroneous." Let’s do some strict, honest exegesis of Paul's words and expose your fatal structural errors.
1. The Total Failure of Your "Corporate Only" Argument
You claim that Paul is not talking about individuals. If that is true, then Paul completely botched his own illustrations.
Look at Romans 9:11–13. Paul does not point to two massive historical empires; he points directly to two individual infants inside a single womb:
“For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth... Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.”
Let's apply some basic logic to your corporate theory: A corporate nation is built on centuries of human actions, wars, and choices. But Paul purposefully strips away all actions and looks at two specific individuals before they can even take a breath. Why? To prove that God's purpose in election targets specific individuals unconditionally, completely bypassing their human will!
2. You Completely Misread the Definition of "Israel"
You argue that Christ sacrificed Himself strictly for the physical nation of Israel, and Gentiles were just a late addition. You have completely missed the core thesis of Romans 9.
In Romans 9:6–8, Paul lays down an unyielding boundary: “For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children... That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are NOT the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”
Paul completely shatters your physical, national framework! He states that being a physical descendant of Abraham means absolutely nothing in terms of eternal covenant standing. Christ did not die for a political passport; He died for the children of promise—the "godly seed" (Malachi 2:15) chosen sovereignly out of both Jews and Gentiles (Romans 9:24).
3. The Unyielding Verdict of Romans 11:7
You claim that the context teaches "human exclusion in terms of unbelief and inclusion in terms of faith." You have the cause and effect completely backward. Let's look at the absolute structural checkmate in Romans 11:7:
“What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.”
Look at the text! Paul splits the people into two absolute, fixed categories:
- The Election: They obtained it. Why? Because they were the chosen wheat sown by the Son of Man (Matthew 13).
- The Rest: They were blinded. Who blinded them? Romans 11:8 tells you: “God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see.”
You can invoke an AI summary all day long to try and flatten Paul's heavy theology into a generic, free-will checklist. But you cannot escape the grammar of the Holy Spirit. God does not deal in vague corporate offers. He is the Potter who takes the exact same physical posterity of Adam and sovereignly makes “one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour” (Romans 9:21). Stop hiding behind national labels to save your human pride, and bow to the discriminating King who binds and blinds according to His own sovereign will!
cv5, you throw out a one-sentence emotional tantrum because you are textually bankrupted by the unyielding reality of the cross. Demanding that a scriptural truth be "jettisoned ASAP" is not a rebuttal; it is an open admission that you cannot handle the text of Scripture.
Notice what you completely dodged:
- You didn't touch the Greek grammar of hyper (literal, vicarious legal substitution).
- You didn't answer how a Savior can die "for" someone's sins, yet those same sins are still legally punished in hell without making God an unjust judge.
- You didn't address the absolute legal finality of Christ making an end of sins (Daniel 9:24) and blotting out the debt-bill (Colossians 2:14).
TULIP simply forces you to stop hiding behind vague terms and answer a basic question: Did the cross actually save who Christ died for, or was it a powerless proposal that failed to secure a single soul until man decided to help?
If you think my exegesis is faulty, step up to the plate, open your Bible, and prove it from the text. Otherwise, your demand to "jettison" the sovereignty of God is just human pride crying out against a Savior who actually finished the work!
Precious friend, in my simpleton pay grade, I believe I understand accountability, which I haven't seen
discussed yet. How is that even possible if the lost sinner has no "free" will, and needs to be co-erced
by God in order "to believe"?
Would not that make The Following UNtrue?:
"And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not
The Love of The Truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong
delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not The
Truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. " (2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 AV)
What think ye?
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And, precious friend(s), Please Be Very Richly Encouraged and Edified
In The Lord Jesus Christ and In His Precious Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided:
The Bible: The BIG Picture
Amen.
God’s decree of election from eternity past includes a remnant of people from every tribe, tongue, and nation, and that salvation has always been by grace through faith looking forward to Christ.
The Covenant of Grace is fundamentally the same in both the Old and New Testaments. People are not saved by keeping the law of Moses, but by faith in the coming Redeemer.
Just as New Testament believers look back at the finished cross, Old Testament believers—including elect Gentiles—looked forward in faith to the promised seed of the woman and the messianic sacrifices.
God’s election is never based on ethnic identity or human merit. Because salvation belongs to the Lord, His sovereign choice bypassed many physical Israelites (the non-elect) and captured individual outsiders.
God commands everyone to repent and believe, and genuinely offers the gospel to all who hear it, but He only works effectually to save those He chose before creation (the elect). Salvation is not a conditional offer that becomes active because a person first yields; rather, a person yields because God first changed their heart.
Yes, born again believers are already saved and we do possess eternal life right now. This is a definitive, present-tense reality rooted in God's sovereign grace, not a future possibility waiting to be earned. God changes the heart of a sinner first. This gives them spiritual life before they can even believe. Eternal life is a current gift. Believers do not just get it when they die.
Being joined to Christ means His life is now the believer's life. True believers will never lose this salvation. God keeps them safe until the end. Salvation is fully possessed now in spirit, though its final physical glory comes later. Those who belong to Christ face no judgment for sin at any time.
All of mankind from Adam onwards, is born into slavery to sin and Satan. Nobody is free to chose anything.
Decree of election simply means that God in His omniscience already knows who will believe before they were born.
He then CHOOSES for what time in history they are to be born, as to predetermine what kind of life they are to live on
earth (under the Law, or under Grace). And how they are to spend their eternity (on the new earth, or in Heaven).
........