Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[ScooterJackson]

The Holy Spirit should lead you to a good pastor-teacher.

The Holy Spirit leads us in to all Truth, God's Word is Truth
You miss that part.

You know, in times past I have belonged to a few churches, some of them long term for several years at a time, and did what you are recommending - believing whatever the pastor says and accepting that as being truth.

Problem is as I grew in the Lord, in prayer, and studying His Word I found out all these pastors were teaching false doctrine as they all had numerous things they taught that were not taught by the Lord or His Apostles (biblical writers the Lord spoke through in His Canon).

It's sad to hear you believe I'm supposed to sit under false doctrine like you do. I guess misery loves company then.
If you accepted the whole counsel of God you'd know that in the end times many would come in the Name of Jesus and they would deceive many. These aren't followers of false religions, no these are people presenting themselves as being Christians who claim to be anointed of the Lord to teach who will tell people like you are telling me - we are required to accept what they say as Truth and if we question anything that say then they will claim we are in rebellion against the Lord.

Yeah, I've heard pastors actually teach this from the pulpit and they'll say iof anyone does not agree with what they are teaching then they need to leave and go find another church to attend instead of theirs.

The bereans did not just take the Apostle Paul at his word. No, they told him they were going to go search the scriptures to see if Paul was teaching correctly. The Lord through Paul commended them for that saying it was a good things. I think I'll be like the bereans as well and get my doctrine from scripture as taught by the Holy Spirit.

You're simply a secular psychic by nature in religious garb.
Your spirit speaks to you in religious terms to deceive only you.

If that's what the demons are telling you then this is what you should believe.

It deceives you just fine.
But not me.

You were deceived long ago in to following the false doctrines of reformed theology.
That's not being led by the true Holy Spirit of the true Jesus Christ.

 

[Genez]

You know, in times past I have belonged to a few churches, some of them long term for several years at a time, and did what you are recommending - believing whatever the pastor says and accepting that as being truth.

I have learned there are too many stupid pastors out there for me to swallow that notion.
And, apparently, stupid congregation members if they believed that as well.

 

[ScooterJackson]

I have learned there are too many stupid pastors out there for me to swallow that notion.
And, apparently, stupid congregation members if they believed that as well.

Earlier you were recommending to me that I find a pastor to follow so I'm assuming you think I should believe whatever the guy says and I should not be like the bereans and compare what he teaches to scripture?

I was just letting you know that I used to do that. They would tell the people that if anybody questioned the pastor then they were is rebellion against God! In order to be a member of the Body of Christ and go to Heaven people were required to believe everything the pastor said as though that was Jesus Christ on the stage personally teaching.

So yeah, been there done that. The Lord delivered me from so called organized religion because these churches teach things the word of God does not teach.

 

[Genez]

Earlier you were recommending to me that I find a pastor to follow so I'm assuming you think I should believe whatever the guy says and I should not be like the bereans and compare what he teaches to scripture?

Not at all. A good pastor will teach you beyond what you think you already know.
That causes growth in understanding.

Most pastors we find with us today... if they were all we have?
I would want to shoot myself.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

The power of God's grace granted to a soul absolves and eliminates the problem with free will.

Grace is not simply an attitude of favor towards man. "Unmerited favor."
It is real power God provides that causes transformation as to make someone able to merit God's favor.

But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” ​

Therefore, I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses so that Christ’s power may ​

rest on me. 2 Corinthians 12:9​

When reading that?

How many of us overlook that aspect of grace?
That is of grace being God's power.

His power at work in us to transform us into becoming someone who will think in a way that will merit His favor!

But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” ​

Therefore, I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses so that Christ’s power may ​

rest on me. 2 Corinthians 12:9.....​

Grace is also a teacher ...

Titus 2:11-12

11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.,

12 It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age

That aspect of grace is also overlooked.
.

 

[Genez]

Grace is also a teacher ...

Titus 2:11-12

11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.,

12 It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age

That aspect of grace is also overlooked.
.

What is overlooked is that the word "teaches" is not what the translation reader will assume it to mean.
It is not for the typical classroom student-teacher scenario.

The Greek word is not what is found in the typical classroom setting.
It is a teaching method that must at times be done with a person who is not interested in gaining academic knowledge.

It is like the child who wants to touch the flame of a candle.
You tell him, "No!"

And then again later on when you see him poking out his finger.
Now the real teaching comes!

Next time?
You let him do it.

And, what takes place?

He learns for himself to say "NO!" and will not be needing to be told again.

 

[ScooterJackson]

Grace is also a teacher ...

Titus 2:11-12
11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.,
12 It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age

That aspect of grace is also overlooked.

That aspect of grace is more like being denied by most people who claim to be grace teachers.
They would say anybody following verse 12 is engaging in works based salvation trying to earn their way to Heaven.

In today's grace teaching, obedience is a dirty word to them. Apparently they like them some DISobedience since they teach being obedient is works based salvation thus denying and otherwise ignoring verse 12

 

[JimiSurvivor]

JimiSurvivor,

Your appeal to Jude 3 and your quote from John Calvin’s Institutes completely backfire when subjected to historical and textual reality.

1. I think it is rational as well as spiritual to appeal to the BIBLE first and foremost to determine what is true. Don't you?

You claim that because the Early Church Fathers (ECF) often used language that emphasized human choices, the doctrines of total inability and unconditional election were "Medieval Catholic additions" invented 400 years later by Augustine.

2. I am not merely saying the E.C.F. used LANGUAGE that emphasized human volition against the idea of total human moral/spiritual helplessness. I am saying that actually was their belief which they clearly and emphatically stated. The Gnostics were the ones who were teaching total unilateral determinism which encompassed every desire, imagination and choice of the human heart.

3. This was a very common view in many religions and philosophies of the early centuries when the Apostles and their successors the E.C.F. lived

4. Let us begin with he earliest generation of believers, those who actually knew one or more of the original Apostles

5. Ignatius (AD 30-107) wrote this on the way to his martyrdom

"Seeing, then, all things have an end, and there is set before us
life upon our observance [of God’s precepts], but
death as the result of disobedience, and
every one, according to the choice he makes, shall go to his own place,
[therefore] let us flee from death, and make the CHOICE of life.
(Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Magnesians, V)
Ignatius believed humans could flee from death and make the CHOICE of LIFE

a) Ignatius, was facing his own imminent death at the hands of Trajan said the following:
God sets before us LIFE [as a consequence of obedience] and DEATH [as a consequence of disobedience
b). EVERYONE, Ignatius says, will go to his own place ACCORDING the the CHOICE HE MAKES
Ignatius obviously did not believe God unilaterally determines our individual destinies.

Ignatius goes on in this same letter addressing the Gnostic's belief that all human choices were result of differing ontological states:

For I remark, that two different characters [not states of being} are found among men — the one true coin, the other spurious.
The truly devout man is the right kind of coin, stamped by God Himself.
The ungodly man, again, is false coin, unlawful, spurious, counterfeit, wrought not by God, but by the devil.
(Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Magnesians, V)

I do not mean to say that there are two different human natures, but that there is
ONE HUMANITY, sometimes belonging to God, and sometimes to the devil.
If any one is truly religious, he is a man of God; but if he is irreligious, he is a man of the devil,
made such, not by nature, but by his own choice. The unbelieving bear the image of the prince of wickedness. The believing possess the image of their Prince, God the Father, and Jesus Christ, through whom, if we are not in readiness to die for the truth into His passion, His life is not in us."
(Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Magnesians, V)

What determined the difference between these two lumps of humanity? Did God unilaterally decide what each would become? In a way - yes. Jeremiah suggests that the Potter had plans for both lump. However, at a certain point, one lump was "marred in his hands" due to internal resistance. The Potter was not thwarted by this. He simply re-purposed it shaping it to serve some dishonorable use
Paul also speaks of how human will and the divine will INTERACT to bringing about personal destinies

1. The Fallacy of Jude 3 and "Progressive Doctrine"

You cite Jude 3 ("contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered unto the saints") to suggest that if a precise theological formulation wasn't explicitly polished in the vocabulary of the first-century apologists, it cannot be part of the original deposit of faith.

It is not about whether the message was POLISHED or not. Paul said:
1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. 2For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. 3And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. 4And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: 5That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
(1 Corinthians 2:1-5)

 

[ThomasMatthew]

1800 pages of debate about free will should have sealed the debate by now.
Ironic?

 

[reneweddaybyday]

What is overlooked is that the word "teaches" is not what the translation reader will assume it to mean.
It is not for the typical classroom student-teacher scenario.

The Greek word is not what is found in the typical classroom setting.
It is a teaching method that must at times be done with a person who is not interested in gaining academic knowledge.

It is like the child who wants to touch the flame of a candle.
You tell him, "No!"

And then again later on when you see him poking out his finger.
Now the real teaching comes!

Next time?
You let him do it.

And, what takes place?

He learns for himself to say "NO!" and will not be needing to be told again.

paideuō runs the gamut ... from training by teaching, instructing, educating, nurturing to correction, chastening, punishment.

The point is that there is more to "grace" than God's favor ... just as you pointed out that grace is power in Post 36,798. Titus 2 tells us grace is an instructor, a trainer.

Hebrews 12:6-8, 11

6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth [Greek = paideuō], and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7 If ye endure chastening [Greek = paideia], God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

8 But if ye be without chastisement [Greek = paideia], whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

...

11 Now no chastening [Greek = paideia] for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

We love running to God for His grace (favor) ... do we run to God for His chastening in order that we may have the "peaceable fruit of righteousness"? ... or do we hide and try to cover ourselves with fig leaves?

.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

That aspect of grace is more like being denied by most people who claim to be grace teachers.
They would say anybody following verse 12 is engaging in works based salvation trying to earn their way to Heaven.

In today's grace teaching, obedience is a dirty word to them. Apparently they like them some DISobedience since they teach being obedient is works based salvation thus denying and otherwise ignoring verse 12

Don't blame it all on the "grace teachers" ... there are also "grace-only listeners" who don't want to learn truth. They want to remain immature children or (worst-case) unbelievers sitting among believers thinking that going to church = born again.

.

 

[ScooterJackson]

Don't blame it all on the "grace teachers" ... there are also "grace-only listeners" who don't want to learn truth. They want to remain immature children or (worst-case) unbelievers sitting among believers thinking that going to church = born again.

Yes, this is true. Some folks seek out preachers they know will tickle their ear and tell them only what they want to hear.

2 Timothy 4:3 - For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears

I'd be surprised if there's not a church somewhere called Tickle Town Fellowship

 

[Genez]

paideuō runs the gamut ... from training by teaching, instructing, educating, nurturing to correction, chastening, punishment.

The point is that there is more to "grace" than God's favor ... just as you pointed out that grace is power in Post 36,798. Titus 2 tells us grace is an instructor, a trainer.

Hebrews 12:6-8, 11

6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth [Greek = paideuō], and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7 If ye endure chastening [Greek = paideia], God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

8 But if ye be without chastisement [Greek = paideia], whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

...

11 Now no chastening [Greek = paideia] for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

We love running to God for His grace (favor) ... do we run to God for His chastening in order that we may have the "peaceable fruit of righteousness"? ... or do we hide and try to cover ourselves with fig leaves?

Normally?
After we have learned how to walk in the Spirit?
We should find ourselves automatically walking in grace as a way of life.

Also...
In a classroom setting we do not see students being scourged while taking notes.

So, Titus 2:11-12 speaks of not an expected way a teacher will teach a student in a classroom setting.
We could never know that by simply reading a translation into English.
That was my point about typical translations.

Does not matter. KJV or modern.
They all will hide things that God wants us to become aware of to know.

And, that is why my pastor always taught us from the Greek, Hebrew, or Aramaic texts.

And, if anyone is interested in such teaching?
Lessons will be sent without money being asked for.

Grace and peace ...........