Cessation of Gifts

[DavidTree]

Preacher John McArthur, Baptists, Dispensation and others had declared that the Gifts of the Holy Spirit, most especially speaking in Tongues, had CEASED with the departure of the Apostles.

Could this be true? If , Yes, then speaking in tongues would be counterfeit and even demonic.

God is not the Author of confusion and somebody is in great error.

PROVE IT - by the Word of God and do so by obeying the LORD's Commandments:

“Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ Matthew 18:15-17

Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.
Proverbs 30:5-6

The Two or Three Witnesses are found in Scripture concerning this Challenge of TRUTH.

 

[Dino246]

PROVE IT

Are you asking the cessationists to 'prove it'... or the continuationists?

 

[DavidTree]

Are you asking the cessationists to 'prove it'... or the continuationists?

either way = prove your position by Scripture only = Thank You

 

[SomeDisciple]

I don't think tongues have necessarily ceased. I'm pretty sure prophecy and other kinds of miraculous things have not ceased; so, I don't see why tongues would be any different.

we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

There's a lot of commentary on this scripture. Some people think "that which is perfect" is the canonization of the bible. I disagree.
Paul says when that which is perfect is come- but then he talks about himself and how he will eventually know as he is known. What he is saying is that the whole point of spiritual gifts- they are not and end to themselves- they are for the edification (building up) of the saints. Spiritual gifts themselves are not "childish things" but they are being likened to childish speech, understanding, and thoughts. They are placeholders while we develop into greater maturity in Christ. So, I don't think Paul is talking about some nebulous point in time when spiritual gifts will stop. He's saying the more and more we are built up, the less we need to be built up to be complete. When the building is complete, it doesn't need to be build anymore.

I'm not so sure about tongues with respect to what we see in some modern churches though- I've certainly never been edified by walking into a room with 300 people making random noises. Same goes with "prophecies" that are super vague or general. Unless the operation of a spiritual gift accomplishes something real, I chalk it up to shenanigans. I have had agonizing pain instantly relieved by prayer, though. So, I don't really care what anybody says... that was real.

 

[DavidTree]

I don't think tongues have necessarily ceased. I'm pretty sure prophecy and other kinds of miraculous things have not ceased; so, I don't see why tongues would be any different.

we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

There's a lot of commentary on this scripture. Some people think "that which is perfect" is the canonization of the bible. I disagree.
Paul says when that which is perfect is come- but then he talks about himself and how he will eventually know as he is known. What he is saying is that the whole point of spiritual gifts- they are not and end to themselves- they are for the edification (building up) of the saints. Spiritual gifts themselves are not "childish things" but they are being likened to childish speech, understanding, and thoughts. They are placeholders while we develop into greater maturity in Christ. So, I don't think Paul is talking about some nebulous point in time when spiritual gifts will stop. He's saying the more and more we are built up, the less we need to be built up to be complete. When the building is complete, it doesn't need to be build anymore.

I'm not so sure about tongues with respect to what we see in some modern churches though- I've certainly never been edified by walking into a room with 300 people making random noises. Same goes with "prophecies" that are super vague or general. Unless the operation of a spiritual gift accomplishes something real, I chalk it up to shenanigans. I have had agonizing pain instantly relieved by prayer, though. So, I don't really care what anybody says... that was real.

OK, excellent points - let's get to the heart of the matter - The Gifts of the Holy Spirit as outlined in 1 Corinthians are either beating in the Heart of JESUS for His Church or they have served their purpose and ceased.

How does God's Heart beat = Yay or Nay = PROVE IT by Scripture alone = what we 'feel' or 'think' is irrelevant unless it agrees with God's word = Scripture.

Take your thoughts, good points made, and refine them from Scripture = you have made excellent points.

 

[Evmur]

McArthur is wrong. he is only a man and men make mistakes, even the best of them.

Those wo claim that any or all of the gifts of the Holy Spirit have ceased are the ones who need to show it by scripture.

... I've never seen anybody who could.

 

[Nehemiah6]

either way = prove your position by Scripture only = Thank You

The current position cannot be proved with Scripture, but with actual facts one way or another. So if you are prepared to accept the studies of linguists who have analyzed modern tongues, fine. If not, you can go to 1 Corinthians 13:8 and either believe it or not.

 

[DavidTree]

The current position cannot be proved with Scripture, but with actual facts one way or another. So if you are prepared to accept the studies of linguists who have analyzed modern tongues, fine. If not, you can go to 1 Corinthians 13:8 and either believe it or not.

My favorite Brother Nehemiah6 - Hello Dear Brother

On the contrary - this CHALLENGE can absolutely be PROVEN one way or the other by Scripture alone and in the mouth of Two or Three Witnesses from Scripture.

So, i embrace your love and reply to this thread and hope you will participate, if you feel lead of course - PEACE

 

[DavidTree]

McArthur is wrong. he is only a man and men make mistakes, even the best of them.

Those wo claim that any or all of the gifts of the Holy Spirit have ceased are the ones who need to show it by scripture.

... I've never seen anybody who could.

Love you Brother Evmur, you know this is true, and Thank You for your reply.
Will you forgive my abruptness and bear with me that i may ask for Scripture to support your stance - PEACE

 

[Cabrillo]

Preacher John McArthur, Baptists, Dispensation and others had declared that the Gifts of the Holy Spirit, most especially speaking in Tongues, had CEASED with the departure of the Apostles.

Could this be true? If , Yes, then speaking in tongues would be counterfeit and even demonic.

God is not the Author of confusion and somebody is in great error.

PROVE IT - by the Word of God and do so by obeying the LORD's Commandments:

“Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ Matthew 18:15-17

Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.
Proverbs 30:5-6

The Two or Three Witnesses are found in Scripture concerning this Challenge of TRUTH.

Yes but consider if they are wrong and the gifts are not all counterfeit. By saying as much if they are not all fake. If only 1 person is legit. Aren't the HS deniers guilty of blasphomy of the Holy Spirit? Not all prophesy
is of God like so many false prophets. Baalam for example was to give a false prophesy till the angel appeared to his donkey . False prophets are to be stoned if they are ever wrong.

1 sam 19:24 And he stripped off his clothes also, and prophesied before Samuel in like manner, and lay down naked all that day and all that night. Wherefore they say, Is Saul also among the prophets?



I've worked with Christian broadcasting

 

[Nehemiah6]

Those wo claim that any or all of the gifts of the Holy Spirit have ceased are the ones who need to show it by scripture.

Actually the only way to show it is through Church History. Were tongues prevalent throughout the 19 centuries preceding modern tongues? And the answer is they were not. And it would be foolish to blame Christians in the past for not speaking in tongues because God had terminated this gift. Bibliotheca Sacra is the theological journal of Dallas Theological Seminary. And this was the conclusion of Rogers who investigated the matter:

"It is significant that the gift of tongues is nowhere alluded to, hinted at or even found in the Apostolic Fathers." (Cleon L. Rogers, "The Gift of Tongues in the Post-Apostolic Church," Bibliotheca Sacra 122, April-June 1965, 134.)

• "Glossolalia In Christian Antiquity And The Early Middle Ages: It has been noted that beyond the New Testament our earliest writings, such as those of the Apostolic Fathers (with the possible exception of Ignatius, The Shepherd of Hermas of Rome, and the Didache) and those of the Apologists, preserve for us almost no evidence of ongoing glossolalia." (The Charismatic Movement, 1975, Michael P. Hamilton, p 64)
• Early church writers such as Polycarp, Papias, Cyprian, Chrysostom, Augustine, Origen etc. never mention tongues. Why? Because they had been withdrawn!

150-600 AD

• "Tongues during the apostolic age was always associated with the truth of God. Tongues outside the apostolic age has always been associated with heresy"
• During the first five hundred years of the church, the only people who claimed to have spoken in tongues were followers of Montanus, who was branded a heretic. (Charismatic Chaos, John F. MacArthur, 1991, p. 234)
• "During the middle of the second century, however, two movements arose alongside or within the main body of Christians, presenting a major crisis in polity, theology, and the interpretation of the Old Testament, which did have glossolalia. The older movement was Gnosticism ... The other, a somewhat later reaction to the structural hardening of main-line Christianity, was Montanism. (The Charismatic Movement, 1975, Michael P. Hamilton, p 64)

What should really be noted by everyone is that Paul himself said that he would rather speak 5 words of prophecy than 10,000 words in tongues. That should have been sufficient.

 

[Evmur]

The current position cannot be proved with Scripture, but with actual facts one way or another. So if you are prepared to accept the studies of linguists who have analyzed modern tongues, fine. If not, you can go to 1 Corinthians 13:8 and either believe it or not.

You cannot prove with actual facts that somebody has been saved. The person who has been saved knows it and will testify.

All McArthur can say with any credibility is that he has not received any gifts of the Holy Spirit, I ask then by what authority or power does he minister?

 

[wattie]

Preacher John McArthur, Baptists, Dispensation and others had declared that the Gifts of the Holy Spirit, most especially speaking in Tongues, had CEASED with the departure of the Apostles.

Could this be true? If , Yes, then speaking in tongues would be counterfeit and even demonic.

God is not the Author of confusion and somebody is in great error.

PROVE IT - by the Word of God and do so by obeying the LORD's Commandments:

“Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ Matthew 18:15-17

Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.
Proverbs 30:5-6

The Two or Three Witnesses are found in Scripture concerning this Challenge of TRUTH.

Well first part of scripture is 1 Corinthians 13.

That which is perfect, or the perfect thing is what causes sign gifts in this passage to cease.

So some key points:

Its talking the GIFT of knowlege, not knowledge in general. So we still have knowledge now. But not the particular gift used for initially spreading Gods Word and setting up God's churches.

Another key thing.. in this passage what is in part? Because that is what the perfect is completing.

Prophecy, tongues and knowledge in part.... the perfect thing completes these gifts. The passage is about part (prophecy, etc) to whole, incomplete to complete, child to man (paul speaking of maturity), obscured (the mirror) to fully known.

Now prophecy, tongues and knowledge gifts were completely to do with God revealing His Word thru men. It was partial revelation at the time and became complete thru the completion of the canon.

Other things that led to the cessation were the likes of the death of apostles.

Last point is that the practice of God no longer operating in something in the same way should not be surprise given he no longer will flood the world again symbolized by the rainbow, no longer operates with the OT system of sacrifices and rules, a d there are customs from NT times we no longer hold to like kissing cheeks.

 

[Nehemiah6]

On the contrary - this CHALLENGE can absolutely be PROVEN one way or the other by Scripture alone and in the mouth of Two or Three Witnesses from Scripture.

In view of that we should note carefully what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 13:8.

 

[DavidTree]

Yes but consider if they are wrong and the gifts are not all counterfeit. By saying as much if they are not all fake. If only 1 person is legit. Aren't the HS deniers guilty of blasphomy of the Holy Spirit? Not all prophesy
is of God like so many false prophets. Baalam for example was to give a false prophesy till the angel appeared to his donkey . False prophets are to be stoned if they are ever wrong.

The spelling is different because it's 2 different words and has two slightly definitions. 1 sam 19:24
And he stripped off his clothes also, and prophesied before Samuel in like manner, and lay down naked all that day and all that night. Wherefore they say, Is Saul also among the prophets?



I've worked with Christian broadcasting

Yes, amen. Blaspheming the Holy Spirit and His work is SERIOUS.

This Thread was started by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit with the express purpose knowing Truth and His Truth being PROVEN by Scripture alone so that no man can boast either one way or the other.

 

[DavidTree]

Actually the only way to show it is through Church History. Were tongues prevalent throughout the 19 centuries preceding modern tongues? And the answer is they were not. And it would be foolish to blame Christians in the past for not speaking in tongues because God had terminated this gift. Bibliotheca Sacra is the theological journal of Dallas Theological Seminary. And this was the conclusion of Rogers who investigated the matter:

"It is significant that the gift of tongues is nowhere alluded to, hinted at or even found in the Apostolic Fathers." (Cleon L. Rogers, "The Gift of Tongues in the Post-Apostolic Church," Bibliotheca Sacra 122, April-June 1965, 134.)

• "Glossolalia In Christian Antiquity And The Early Middle Ages: It has been noted that beyond the New Testament our earliest writings, such as those of the Apostolic Fathers (with the possible exception of Ignatius, The Shepherd of Hermas of Rome, and the Didache) and those of the Apologists, preserve for us almost no evidence of ongoing glossolalia." (The Charismatic Movement, 1975, Michael P. Hamilton, p 64)
• Early church writers such as Polycarp, Papias, Cyprian, Chrysostom, Augustine, Origen etc. never mention tongues. Why? Because they had been withdrawn!

150-600 AD

• "Tongues during the apostolic age was always associated with the truth of God. Tongues outside the apostolic age has always been associated with heresy"
• During the first five hundred years of the church, the only people who claimed to have spoken in tongues were followers of Montanus, who was branded a heretic. (Charismatic Chaos, John F. MacArthur, 1991, p. 234)
• "During the middle of the second century, however, two movements arose alongside or within the main body of Christians, presenting a major crisis in polity, theology, and the interpretation of the Old Testament, which did have glossolalia. The older movement was Gnosticism ... The other, a somewhat later reaction to the structural hardening of main-line Christianity, was Montanism. (The Charismatic Movement, 1975, Michael P. Hamilton, p 64)

What should really be noted by everyone is that Paul himself said that he would rather speak 5 words of prophecy than 10,000 words in tongues. That should have been sufficient.

Thank You Brother

History is great but it is not the Scripture by which we must know this answer - firmly and proven beyond any doubt or opinion

 

[Nehemiah6]

You cannot prove with actual facts that somebody has been saved. The person who has been saved knows it and will testify.

Yes but you can prove with actual facts whether the gift of tongues was prevalent among all Christians (not just Pentecostals) from 30 AD to 1906. Now it is up to you to prove it from Church History (regardless of denominations). The Montanists were regarded as heretics so let's leave them out.

 

[DavidTree]

In view of that we should note carefully what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 13:8.

Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 1 Cor 13:8

Does this say, beyond any doubt that the Gifts have already ceased???

 

[Evmur]

Actually the only way to show it is through Church History. Were tongues prevalent throughout the 19 centuries preceding modern tongues? And the answer is they were not. And it would be foolish to blame Christians in the past for not speaking in tongues because God had terminated this gift. Bibliotheca Sacra is the theological journal of Dallas Theological Seminary. And this was the conclusion of Rogers who investigated the matter:

"It is significant that the gift of tongues is nowhere alluded to, hinted at or even found in the Apostolic Fathers." (Cleon L. Rogers, "The Gift of Tongues in the Post-Apostolic Church," Bibliotheca Sacra 122, April-June 1965, 134.)

• "Glossolalia In Christian Antiquity And The Early Middle Ages: It has been noted that beyond the New Testament our earliest writings, such as those of the Apostolic Fathers (with the possible exception of Ignatius, The Shepherd of Hermas of Rome, and the Didache) and those of the Apologists, preserve for us almost no evidence of ongoing glossolalia." (The Charismatic Movement, 1975, Michael P. Hamilton, p 64)
• Early church writers such as Polycarp, Papias, Cyprian, Chrysostom, Augustine, Origen etc. never mention tongues. Why? Because they had been withdrawn!

150-600 AD

• "Tongues during the apostolic age was always associated with the truth of God. Tongues outside the apostolic age has always been associated with heresy"
• During the first five hundred years of the church, the only people who claimed to have spoken in tongues were followers of Montanus, who was branded a heretic. (Charismatic Chaos, John F. MacArthur, 1991, p. 234)
• "During the middle of the second century, however, two movements arose alongside or within the main body of Christians, presenting a major crisis in polity, theology, and the interpretation of the Old Testament, which did have glossolalia. The older movement was Gnosticism ... The other, a somewhat later reaction to the structural hardening of main-line Christianity, was Montanism. (The Charismatic Movement, 1975, Michael P. Hamilton, p 64)

What should really be noted by everyone is that Paul himself said that he would rather speak 5 words of prophecy than 10,000 words in tongues. That should have been sufficient.

No, this is to go by human sense and not by the word of God. If you were to walk into any medieval church would you witness anything there that bears a semblance with apostolic christianity? you would hear tongues, that is the latin tongue. Would you hear a message of instant salvation? I am sure many came to a true knowledge of salvation but it was not preached.

The church advanced in revelation at the reformation by going back to the bible.

Every instance of advance will come by going back to the bible and not by contemporary experience.

 

[DavidTree]

Well first part of scripture is 1 Corinthians 13.

That which is perfect, or the perfect thing is what causes sign gifts in this passage to cease.

So some key points:

Its talking the GIFT of knowlege, not knowledge in general. So we still have knowledge now. But not the particular gift used for initially spreading Gods Word and setting up God's churches.

Another key thing.. in this passage what is in part? Because that is what the perfect is completing.

Prophecy, tongues and knowledge in part.... the perfect thing completes these gifts. The passage is about part (prophecy, etc) to whole, incomplete to complete, child to man (paul speaking of maturity), obscured (the mirror) to fully known.

Now prophecy, tongues and knowledge gifts were completely to do with God revealing His Word thru men. It was partial revelation at the time and became complete thru the completion of the canon.

Other things that led to the cessation were the likes of the death of apostles.

Last point is that the practice of God no longer operating in something in the same way should not be surprise given he no longer will flood the world again symbolized by the rainbow, no longer operates with the OT system of sacrifices and rules, a d there are customs from NT times we no longer hold to like kissing cheeks.

PEACE and LOVE from GOD Above - please forgive my abruptness - do not take it personal.

You added your thoughts to God's word so, though well thought out and articulated = it remains opinionated.

But you are in the correct location in 1 Corinthians

Do not give up but make sure you do not add to Scripture or take away - seek TRUTH