Cessationism and Continuationism
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you are not even trying to hide the fact you simply wish to diss on tongues at this point
I asked you a question with no reference to how I felt
your developing sarcastic attitude really does nothing to help you with your 'nice' conversation you said you wanted to have
yeah well yah know, you set yourself up without prior understanding and knowledge of your chosen subject matter
you could just say you do not know or have the answer to the question I asked rather than avoid and dodge
I asked you a question with no reference to how I felt
your developing sarcastic attitude really does nothing to help you with your 'nice' conversation you said you wanted to have
yeah well yah know, you set yourself up without prior understanding and knowledge of your chosen subject matter
you could just say you do not know or have the answer to the question I asked rather than avoid and dodge
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I’m not a fan of denominations myself nor was I trying to label you. I just wanted to know where you sit before I ask where you stand. If you believe that my stance is incorrect, I’m open to reasons to that.
In my opinion, there are three reason why some people what this to be true still:
1) People what to have a unique and special relationship with God. I completely understand this and yearn for that myself
2) People are not content with being a Christian by itself. Instead the want a more grandeur existence, honor, and to be set part from the herd. It’s akin to a “Look at me and what I can do” mentality.
3) People are total charlatans. The know they are completely fake and use that to prey on the desperation of others for financial and personal gain.
In my opinion, there are three reason why some people what this to be true still:
1) People what to have a unique and special relationship with God. I completely understand this and yearn for that myself
2) People are not content with being a Christian by itself. Instead the want a more grandeur existence, honor, and to be set part from the herd. It’s akin to a “Look at me and what I can do” mentality.
3) People are total charlatans. The know they are completely fake and use that to prey on the desperation of others for financial and personal gain.
How can I have conversation with someone who base their position on emotions instead a dialogue of ideas. You have made some pretty blanketed statements with no real substance. You cannot call me out for not answering a question(Of which I’m more than happy to do) if you yourself will not answer one of mine.
The real issue with Cessationalism is how One Single Verse is being literally Cherry Picked to create a Doctrine that has no Biblical Foundation. So, let's examine this Verse carefully.
1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
Now, we understand All of these Fail/Cease/Vanish when that "Which is Perfect" has come.
MacArthur claims, that which is Perfect came when John received Revelation and it ended Scripture.
If this is true, then Every Prophecy that was not fulfilled would never be fulfilled like the Second Coming of Christ, the Beast, the False Prophet, the Mark of the Beast, and the 30 remaining Prophecies can never be Fulfilled, because Prophecies are now Failing.
Also, that means, Daniel's 12:4 Prophecy of Knowledge Increasing cannot be fulfilled, because Knowledge has Vanished Away. But according to Historians, Knowledge used to Double every 100 years, since 1945, it became Knowledge Doubles every 25 years, and now we are to the point where:
Oct 22, 2020 — Volume of knowledge is doubling every 12 hours, the doubling rate used to be 25 years in 1945. Speed with which technology is progressing is ...
: Knowledge is Doubling EVERY 12 HOURS!
But how can Knowledge be Increasing if it Vanished Away?
How can unfulfilled Prophecies like the Second coming of Christ still be Factual, if Prophecies have Failed?
Truth is, MacArthur would not know the Truth if it bit him in the rear end.
And since we know Prophecy has not Failed, and Knowledge has Increased to we can Double our Knowledge every 12 hours, that means Tongues has Not Ceased!
The Facts are the Facts!
And clearly, the Facts show us that Perfect has not yet Come, which is the Second coming of Christ. The only thing Perfect we have ever witnessed with human eyes.
1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
Now, we understand All of these Fail/Cease/Vanish when that "Which is Perfect" has come.
MacArthur claims, that which is Perfect came when John received Revelation and it ended Scripture.
If this is true, then Every Prophecy that was not fulfilled would never be fulfilled like the Second Coming of Christ, the Beast, the False Prophet, the Mark of the Beast, and the 30 remaining Prophecies can never be Fulfilled, because Prophecies are now Failing.
Also, that means, Daniel's 12:4 Prophecy of Knowledge Increasing cannot be fulfilled, because Knowledge has Vanished Away. But according to Historians, Knowledge used to Double every 100 years, since 1945, it became Knowledge Doubles every 25 years, and now we are to the point where:
Oct 22, 2020 — Volume of knowledge is doubling every 12 hours, the doubling rate used to be 25 years in 1945. Speed with which technology is progressing is ...
: Knowledge is Doubling EVERY 12 HOURS!
But how can Knowledge be Increasing if it Vanished Away?
How can unfulfilled Prophecies like the Second coming of Christ still be Factual, if Prophecies have Failed?
Truth is, MacArthur would not know the Truth if it bit him in the rear end.
And since we know Prophecy has not Failed, and Knowledge has Increased to we can Double our Knowledge every 12 hours, that means Tongues has Not Ceased!
The Facts are the Facts!
And clearly, the Facts show us that Perfect has not yet Come, which is the Second coming of Christ. The only thing Perfect we have ever witnessed with human eyes.
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Also as for the apostles and the way the church moved it is going to happen again, God has created for himself a children who truly are after his own heart and who will walk in his spirit on a deeper level than even the apostles. The book of acts the persicution of the church the wonders and miracles it is a foreshadow of the time to come. and make no mistake it is coming and is even at our doors
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IMO the debate between cessationism and continuationism doesn't get anywhere because it doesn't address the heart of the issue. The real issue is the nature of tongues, and the fact that modern tongues is not the same thing as NT tongues.
I have heard MacArthur's teaching on the issue, and I think that his exaggerative and accusative manner doesn't make enough difference to resolve anything. I also disagree with some of his interpretation of 1 Cor. 14. I don't agree that scriptural text supports cessationism, although the closest it comes to that is an implication in Heb. 2:4.
Therefore I don't expect much progress toward solution in this thread. However, I do expect to discuss how to correctly interpret scripture concerning this issue.
I have heard MacArthur's teaching on the issue, and I think that his exaggerative and accusative manner doesn't make enough difference to resolve anything. I also disagree with some of his interpretation of 1 Cor. 14. I don't agree that scriptural text supports cessationism, although the closest it comes to that is an implication in Heb. 2:4.
Therefore I don't expect much progress toward solution in this thread. However, I do expect to discuss how to correctly interpret scripture concerning this issue.
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The church I learned about the gifts is what I call a 1st Corinthians 14 Charismatic church. We operated in the gifts, but with strict Biblical constraints of time and place. Private tongues were to be kept to oneself at home or a small prayer group. If you felt led to prophesy, or interpret, you were to approach church leadership for confirmation before acting. Healings were performed in meekness and humility. Words of wisdom or knowledge were to always be confirmed. It is not a free-for-all sideshow, and those who make it so will answer for their sins against the Holy Spirit.
As will all those who see such falsehoods and think, "well this group is crazy so they must all be crazy"
As will all those who see such falsehoods and think, "well this group is crazy so they must all be crazy"
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Talking of the accusation that some cessationists are saying people speaking in tongues now is demonic...
I agree with the view that it's a euphoric and can even be a relaxing experience, rather than saying its directly demonic.
Most Christians who try to speak in tongues would do so with Gods best in mind, so it would be doubtful it would be a demonic thing.
It would only go to the demonic point where it would be akin to Hindu and New Age trance states.. where God isn't in the picture at all.
So yeah, I wouldn't call it demonic, Christian's trying to speak in tongues now, but a euphoric experience.
I agree with the view that it's a euphoric and can even be a relaxing experience, rather than saying its directly demonic.
Most Christians who try to speak in tongues would do so with Gods best in mind, so it would be doubtful it would be a demonic thing.
It would only go to the demonic point where it would be akin to Hindu and New Age trance states.. where God isn't in the picture at all.
So yeah, I wouldn't call it demonic, Christian's trying to speak in tongues now, but a euphoric experience.
MacArthur is not the issue, and he can be either ignored or dismissed. So let's focus on the actual issue. There is no contradiction between saying that Scripture is complete, and a multitude of prophecies remain unfulfilled. In the Holy Bible God has given to us all that we need (2 Tim 3:16,17). So here are some pertinent questions:
1. Is Scripture complete? Absolutely
2. Is the Bible perfect -- inspired, inerrant, and infallible? Absolutely
3. Did John say that no one should add any more prophecies to those in Revelation? Absolutely
4. Did Paul mean prophecies would cease? Paul said that they would cease (not fail even though it sounds like that in the KJV) and the word used in Greek is καταργηθήσονται (katargēthēsontai) derived from katargeo*.
*Strong's Concordance
katargeó: to render inoperative, abolish
Original Word: καταργέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: katargeó
Phonetic Spelling: (kat-arg-eh'-o)
Definition: to render inoperative, abolish
Usage: (a) I make idle (inactive), make of no effect, annul, abolish, bring to naught, (b) I discharge, sever, separate from.
5. Did Paul tie prophecies, tongues, and supernatural knowledge together as a package of gifts that would cease? Absolutely
6. Did Paul say "that which is perfect/complete is come" or did he say "He who is perfect is come"? (meaning Christ). He did say the former, not the latter, and that was not careless or accidental.
7. Does the record show (Church Fathers and Church history) that for 1900 years those three gifts were not operational? Absolutely. Not a single Church Father claimed to be either (a) an apostle, or (b) a prophet, or (c) a tongues-speaker. But today claims are being made for all three.
So we need to go by a proper exegesis as well as a close examination of Church history to see that out of about 20 spiritual gifts these three have ceased. The classic work by Philip Schaff -- History of the Christian Church -- will confirm what I have said.
At the same time, Christians who are not Pentecostals or Charismatics do not have to interfere with, or deride, those who are. Each one is directly accountable to God. However there could be serious issues for the unwary if false tongues are being promoted (along with a lot of emotionalism and sometimes craziness) among certain groups. The description of the "Toronto Blessing" comes to mind.
1. Is Scripture complete? Absolutely
2. Is the Bible perfect -- inspired, inerrant, and infallible? Absolutely
3. Did John say that no one should add any more prophecies to those in Revelation? Absolutely
4. Did Paul mean prophecies would cease? Paul said that they would cease (not fail even though it sounds like that in the KJV) and the word used in Greek is καταργηθήσονται (katargēthēsontai) derived from katargeo*.
*Strong's Concordance
katargeó: to render inoperative, abolish
Original Word: καταργέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: katargeó
Phonetic Spelling: (kat-arg-eh'-o)
Definition: to render inoperative, abolish
Usage: (a) I make idle (inactive), make of no effect, annul, abolish, bring to naught, (b) I discharge, sever, separate from.
5. Did Paul tie prophecies, tongues, and supernatural knowledge together as a package of gifts that would cease? Absolutely
6. Did Paul say "that which is perfect/complete is come" or did he say "He who is perfect is come"? (meaning Christ). He did say the former, not the latter, and that was not careless or accidental.
7. Does the record show (Church Fathers and Church history) that for 1900 years those three gifts were not operational? Absolutely. Not a single Church Father claimed to be either (a) an apostle, or (b) a prophet, or (c) a tongues-speaker. But today claims are being made for all three.
So we need to go by a proper exegesis as well as a close examination of Church history to see that out of about 20 spiritual gifts these three have ceased. The classic work by Philip Schaff -- History of the Christian Church -- will confirm what I have said.
At the same time, Christians who are not Pentecostals or Charismatics do not have to interfere with, or deride, those who are. Each one is directly accountable to God. However there could be serious issues for the unwary if false tongues are being promoted (along with a lot of emotionalism and sometimes craziness) among certain groups. The description of the "Toronto Blessing" comes to mind.
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