Cessationism or Continuationism: What Does Scripture Say?

[damombomb]

How about a new forum where continuist can share without being jumped, where you can share with like minded

 

[Stephen63]

check the greek.
that which is perfect is not referring to Jesus, and is a stretch to make it the eternal state.
the context of the chapter is the partial and temporary nature of the gifts.
and the idea being that we all come to the unity of the faith.
this could only be accomplished in full with the full and finished (complete; perfect) revelation of the Will and Plan of God.

1 Corinthians 13:10
but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. NIV

But when what is complete comes, then what is incomplete will be done away with. ISV


Cessationism - Cessationist - Spiritual Gifts - The Ultimate Cessationism Resource < click

1 Corinthians 13:10 [SUP]10 [/SUP]But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

1 Corinthians 13:12[SUP]12[/SUP] For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 [SUP]51 [/SUP]Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, [SUP]52 [/SUP]In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. [SUP]53 [/SUP]For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1 John 3:2[SUP]2[/SUP] Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

 

[Stephen63]

disgusting.

but typical reaction from Pentecostals when they know they're faking most of what they do.

and this?:


When I stand before God, we will recount the numerous times I made myself available to the moving of His Spirit to bring miraculous things into this world.

oh Lord, it's hard to be humble when you're so used of God in these mighty charis....eh.

good luck to ya.

if making myself available means i gibber in pagan blabberings and think i'm moving mountains, well, i'll be happy praising Jesus for all His Marvelous Works...and leaving MY Miraculous anything out of it.

this is exactly the heart of Pentecostalism - PRIDE AND SELF.

There you go again, blasting & stereotyping all the Pentecostals again. Didn't you watch the insurance commercial that said you can't believe everything you hear on the internet? Ya know, the one with the "French model" in it?
It's the same old story as always....... Your mouth writing checks that your internet theological training can't cash.

 

[Stephen63]

This is for real, people. The Bible isn't talking about little green martians here. The spiritual realm is real, spiritual beings are real, alive, and very active in the world of today. Now you can embrace and take hold of the Gifts God has given us to empower us over these beings, or you can stick your head in the sand and later explain to Him why you sat on your @#$ in 70AD.

My friend, understand that when constant pressure has been put on you by constantly refuting everything you say, IT IS A SETUP. Others before you have been banned cause they couldn't handle the pressure as well. If all the continuationists get banned for blowing their top, who will be left to refute the cessationists? It's a 2-sided tactic....... either you give up & lose, or you lose it & lose........ either way, they win. Tactics are used when they have nothing else, or when "the end justify the means".

 

[SarahM777]

Ok another example to consider:

My friend Vicki is spiritually very strong and sensitive, even more than she knows. I knew from what she is involved with (heavily into Kabala) that the ‘darkies’ (I don’t like the word demons because there’s so much misinformation and mis-guided thought about them) were present around her. The first time I went to visit her they kept their distance while we chatted. But the moment I stepped out her door, two of them escorted me down the hall, down the stairs, into the street to my car, and watched me drive away. Plain as day, they don't even try to hide from me anymore because they know God's made me wise to them.

When I prayed for her (and I mostly pray in the Spirit), I often got this visual impression where it's night time, and I'm elevated like up in a tree to where I can see across the rooftops. Off a mile or so is her apartment building. Buildings usually give off some ambient light, but the light from her building was much brighter than the surroundings. Bright enough that it shines up upon the bottom of what at first looks to be some very dark tumultuous clouds. But looking closer, I can see it is instead a thick black swirling cloud of dark spirits. They're like a ginormous nasty swarm of mosquitoes, just looking for way in to draw blood, being held back solely by the light.

So one night I'm praying for her, and it’s concerted prayer; the swarm is thick and heavy and really agitated - pressing in to the point where they were smothering out the light. I got a sense of real urgency, that something really bad was happening. So in the Name of Jesus I travailed in prayer to bind and silence and swat at a few of them. But I was just one man against a swarm, definitely outnumbered. So I commanded angels to fight and occupy the enemy; and I saw angels start charging into the darkness. And then I command more of them to move in and get her out and to a place of safety. And I see more of them rush off into the scene. And so that is how I fight, in the Spirit of God claiming the Authority of Christ to bind and silence the darkies; and commanding the angelic host to go and do battle and occupy the them while others get in and get her out. And I'm watching this happen in my vision; I don't ever see her, but I see the heavenly forces rushing off to do battle against the swarm.

So the next day I'm talking to her, and before I can say anything she starts telling me about how she has always had trouble dealing with certain critical issues. They had been recently piling up and squeezing her to the point where she was starting to come apart and have a panic attack over how she was going to deal with them. She confessed that she’d dealt with it before by cutting herself (including her wrists) and that last night she was ready to do it again. Then she said, 'it was so weird, because all of a sudden this voice started telling me to get out, get out, leave, and something grabbed me by the arms and dragged me out of the apartment and down to my car.' She ended up on a bench at the beach where a Bible she found and people she encountered helped her find peace with the issue.

*

Ok, again, this came from God or it came from satan. Really, satan is going to use my supplications to Jehovah God and my covering in the Blood of Christ to stop his minions from wreaking havoc on someone? A house divided does what?


This is for real, people. The Bible isn't talking about little green martians here. The spiritual realm is real, spiritual beings are real, alive, and very active in the world of today. Now you can embrace and take hold of the Gifts God has given us to empower us over these beings, or you can stick your head in the sand and later explain to Him why you sat on your @ss in 70AD.

UMM Ricky,

Question for you to consider,Where in the Bible does ANYONE say that demons go around in big flying swarms? Chapter and verse please. I know that is somewhat common in mythology,but I haven't found that in the Bible so could you please point that out where it is? Thanks

I know the spirit realm is real but from I read in the Bible the biggest weapons that Satan has is LIES and DECEPTION.

 

[maxwel]

How about a new forum where continuist can share without being jumped, where you can share with like minded

How about we continue with debate and discussion, same as always, but we just all try to be more polite.

Everyone go to your room... and don't come out till you can kill each other nicely.
: )

 

[hampsterisk]

My opinion (shoot it down if you can) is that spiritual gifts include the things that we believers are good at. One person might have a knack for caring for older folks, another might stick up for the underdogs, others might have special learning capabilities. My point is that each of us have specific interests, passions, and talents. Our job is to use them in a way that is glorifying to God. Say, becoming a doctor if God has given you that interest, and if you possess the mental and physical stamina (also given by God) required.

 

[Fenner]

How about we continue with debate and discussion, same as always, but we just all try to be more polite.

Everyone go to your room... and don't come out till you can kill each other nicely.

: )

I saw your buddy Mike Wosowski in Monster's University today. He did a good job.

 

[zone]

And that is the heart of hypocrasy... asking for evidence, then beating the messenger for having the audacity to provide it. I KNEW that was going to come up, altho I expected it from Abiding first. 'Hey, can anyone give me evidence of these things actually happening?" "why yes, here are some occurances that I have witnessed". "Well you pridefull boastful thing you."

I knew it.

LOLOLOLOL you say. I cry for you I say. For a mind so full of doctrine, you're heart's so empty of God.

so, though it's tempting for me to sit here and list the things i do; am involved in for the Gospel's sake and for the Name of Jesus' sake; and for those who are suffering and lost.

but i will not.

i don't discuss those things publically.

what i will say, is that they don't involve visions of demons behind every bush or psychobabble tongues which are meaningless.

 

[zone]

How about a new forum where continuist can share without being jumped, where you can share with like minded

there are hundreds of threads.
or start a new one.

 

[zone]

1 Corinthians 13:10 [SUP]10 [/SUP]But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

1 Corinthians 13:12[SUP]12[/SUP] For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 [SUP]51 [/SUP]Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, [SUP]52 [/SUP]In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. [SUP]53 [/SUP]For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1 John 3:2[SUP]2[/SUP] Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

you cherry pick 2nd advent passages and dump into the slot you need?

this is why pentecostal apologists get little respect for their mishandling of the scriptures.

1 Corinthians 13:12 is using the illustration of a blurry mirror - who do you see in a mirror? YOURSELF. NOT JESUS.
he is talking about UNDERSTANDING.
the gifts were partial in all - even their understanding.

Scripture isn't sufficient for you, is it? outside authorities match it.
if you are a prophet, you're equal to scripture.
if God is speaking DIRECTLY to you (He isn't) - you are on par with scripture (you're not).

if you were honest about that - the conversation would get somewhere.

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 is an entirely NEW SUBJECT.

1 John 3:2 - is talking about OUR RESURRECTION BODIES.

try all you can to make this about TONGUES (gibbering in glossolalia) - IT ISN'T.
it never, ever, ever, ever was.

until the Pentecostal Movement in the last 100 years.

 

[zone]

There you go again, blasting & stereotyping all the Pentecostals again. Didn't you watch the insurance commercial that said you can't believe everything you hear on the internet? Ya know, the one with the "French model" in it?
It's the same old story as always....... Your mouth writing checks that your internet theological training can't cash.

show me the DIFFERENCE in your practices and beliefs concerning Latter Rain; Revivals; Renewals; Great New Moves of the Spirit - whatever your poet term is so you can wiggle out of the stuff you find embarrassing.

I KEEP ASKING....AND ANECDOTES DON'T COUNT - prove you are doing whyat the disciples did with their SUPERNATURAL GIFTS.
PROVE IT. NOT YOUR STORIES.

Paul had NO PROBLEM being checked out and we are COMMANDED to test the SPIRITS because NOT ALL SPIRITS ARE OF GOD.

do you have a problem with this?:



SHOW ME THE DIFFERENCE.

you never do - any of you.

just stories. and accusations about cessationism - which apparently not a single one of you gets yet.
too scared to actually find out what cessationists teach.

infantile misrepresentations are your shield so you never have to actually face BOTH sides of the discussion, and consider you might be WRONG.

tell me why i should put my trust in; or ascribe AUTHORITY to your subjective experiences and stories? WHY? BECAUSE OF SOME ANOINTING YOU CLAIM YOU HAVE? PROVE IT!

are your visions and dreams of any real authroity to the church?

if not, how do you dare to demand they receive authority and be accepted as equal to apostolic DOCTRINE?

 

[zone]

Your mouth writing checks that your internet theological training can't cash.

do you really want to go into this Pentecostalism issue Stephen?
because you need to be able to defend you beliefs and practices according to the Word of God.

my internet theological training (cough cough) ? LOL okay.

what are you going to do with the fact

1) my discernment
2) the Holy Spirit CONFIRMS
3) the scripture confirm

that half the stuff you practice and claim you KNOW is FAKE.
huh?

ready?

i am.....any day. it'll start with the History of the Pentecostal Movement.
then you (or anyone else, except KEN) WILL PROCEED TO NOT ADDRESS why the "gifts" ceased then restarted in the last century.

i'm ready, because those teachings are from deceiving spirits and NOT from GOD.
you need to put up, or stop claiming they are.

if you can.
you've already proven you can't.
any of you.

 

[zone]

Yes it is extremely serious, as it borders on blaspheme. But here's the picture you need to see:

When I stand before God, we will recount the numerous times I made myself available to the moving of His Spirit to bring miraculous things into this world.

When you stand before God, you'll recount how you believe that He sat on His @ss in 70 AD and didn't make yourself available to anything.

Study the unfaithful servant who hid the talents his master gave him.

This is for real, people. The Bible isn't talking about little green martians here. The spiritual realm is real, spiritual beings are real, alive, and very active in the world of today. Now you can embrace and take hold of the Gifts God has given us to empower us over these beings, or you can stick your head in the sand and later explain to Him why you sat on your @ss in 70AD.

My friend, understand that when constant pressure has been put on you by constantly refuting everything you say, IT IS A SETUP. Others before you have been banned cause they couldn't handle the pressure as well. If all the continuationists get banned for blowing their top, who will be left to refute the cessationists? It's a 2-sided tactic....... either you give up & lose, or you lose it & lose........ either way, they win. Tactics are used when they have nothing else, or when "the end justify the means".

what constant pressure?

YOUR STUFF STANDS OR FALLS in the light of Scripture.

not subjectivity or stories or visions or dreams or feelings or sensations or tales of God stopping your sermon to whisper something to you about one of your congregants - that must be a heady feeling Stephen...to have your people thinking YOU are so close to God He speaks right to YOU - ABOUT THEM.

what control.

and what suffering for those in this CULTISH activity.




send your wounded to any Safe Baby Church - LCMS i recommend
they'll be tended to properly there, FED FROM THE WORD as Jesus commanded Peter.
not some man's self-inflated ego-trip and fake one-on-ones with God.

SCAMMERS!
show me the difference between you and Benny Hinn (leave out the GREED and the fact he's on tv).
how is your practice ANY different from his?

 

[zone]

My friend, understand that when constant pressure has been put on you by constantly refuting everything you say, IT IS A SETUP. Others before you have been banned cause they couldn't handle the pressure as well. If all the continuationists get banned for blowing their top, who will be left to refute the cessationists? It's a 2-sided tactic....... either you give up & lose, or you lose it & lose........ either way, they win. Tactics are used when they have nothing else, or when "the end justify the means".

there might be 3 or 4 cessationists here.
the rest are unidentified, or continuationist.

stop whining.
you have tons of support.

PROVE YOUR CLAIMS.

 

[Stephen63]

do you really want to go into this Pentecostalism issue Stephen?
because you need to be able to defend you beliefs and practices according to the Word of God.

my internet theological training (cough cough) ? LOL okay.

what are you going to do with the fact

1) my discernment
2) the Holy Spirit CONFIRMS
3) the scripture confirm

that half the stuff you practice and claim you KNOW is FAKE.
huh?

ready?

i am.....any day. it'll start with the History of the Pentecostal Movement.
then you (or anyone else, except KEN) WILL PROCEED TO NOT ADDRESS why the "gifts" ceased then restarted in the last century.

i'm ready, because those teachings are from deceiving spirits and NOT from GOD.
you need to put up, or stop claiming they are.

if you can.
you've already proven you can't.
any of you.

what constant pressure?

YOUR STUFF STANDS OR FALLS in the light of Scripture.

not subjectivity or stories or visions or dreams or feelings or sensations or tales of God stopping your sermon to whisper something to you about one of your congregants - that must be a heady feeling Stephen...to have your people thinking YOU are so close to God He speaks right to YOU - ABOUT THEM.

what control.

and what suffering for those in this CULTISH activity.




send your wounded to any Safe Baby Church - LCMS i recommend
they'll be tended to properly there, FED FROM THE WORD as Jesus commanded Peter.
not some man's self-inflated ego-trip and fake one-on-ones with God.

SCAMMERS!
show me the difference between you and Benny Hinn (leave out the GREED and the fact he's on tv).
how is your practice ANY different from his?

there might be 3 or 4 cessationists here.
the rest are unidentified, or continuationist.

stop whining.
you have tons of support.

PROVE YOUR CLAIMS.

Let's look at what we have here in red:

1) my discernment It's not ok for a continuationist to make a claim that the Lord showed them anything, but she can claim supernatural discernment! Seems to be a double standard to me.

2) the Holy Spirit CONFIRMS Just how did the Holy Spirit confirm this to you? Did he speak to you? Did you see a vision? Did you have a dream? .........or maybe you just know? It's amazing how you demand evidence, but don't prove anything yourself. Again, a double standard.

3) the scripture confirm Which one? the one you keep misquoting? In all this slanderous innuendo, I didn't see a one. The very thing you accuse us of doing you do yourself.

that half the stuff you practice and claim you KNOW is FAKE.
This is said by the woman who uses the internet like the Encyclopedia Britannica. How can you possibly prove half of that?

not subjectivity or stories or visions or dreams or feelings or sensations or tales of God stopping your sermon to whisper something to you about one of your congregants - that must be a heady feeling Stephen...to have your people thinking YOU are so close to God He speaks right to YOU - ABOUT THEM.
What kind of feeling do you get slamming people like this? High in the saddle? Do people think you're close to God by the way you take control of a thread? Do you use spiritual authority to openly call people out & call them fakes? Do you use your spiritual discernment to call Pentecostals frauds? Which reminds me..... HOW are you using spiritual authority AT ALL when YOU YOURSELF CLAIM TO BELIEVE THAT WOMEN CANNOT BE LEADERS OVER MEN? That women can't take authority over men? WHAT DO YOU CALL WHAT YOU'RE DOING RIGHT NOW?

what control. Indeed. You certainly proved that one, lol!

and what suffering for those in this CULTISH activity. Someone might wonder what your activity should be called, especially with your little helpers.

not some man's self-inflated ego-trip and fake one-on-ones with God. Don't look now, but looking at all these posts above, I believe it's YOUR ego that's showing here, not mine.

SCAMMERS! Who's scamming who?

show me the difference between you and Benny Hinn (leave out the GREED and the fact he's on tv).
how is your practice ANY different from his?
Show me the difference between you and the THOUSANDS of Pentecostal haters that are on the internet? How is your practice any different from theirs?

there might be 3 or 4 cessationists here. If anyone believes that, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell ya.

stop whining. I don't have time to whine, I'm too busy showing the readers on here what you're doing. Sitting on the inside sowing seeds of unbelief to well-intentioned christians on this site. Thanks for making that easy to do.

In His Service,
Stephen63

 

[NiceneCreed]

I think that is a swell idea . . . Can I get a guarantee you'll join the new forum? LOL!

Grace and Peace!

 

[NiceneCreed]

Another thing I focused on is verse 10 of 1 Corinthians 13, what does Paul mean when he says, ". . . then that which is in part shall be done away"? Surely Paul could not have been referring to the Holy Spirit. Unfortunately, however, that is usually the argument presented by cessationists: "The canon is perfect and the Holy Spirit is not." Just listen to how that line of thinking sounds. It sounds blasphemous, doesn't? And indeed it is! However, I have heard some of the strangest arguments as to why spiritual gifts ceased at the closing of the canon. Anyway, if you haven't already, check out my article posted to this forum. You may find it a bit elementary, but nonetheless, it raises some valid points about the misbelief that is cessationism. Thanks for the interest in the topic.


Grace and Peace!

 

[NiceneCreed]

It is easy for one to say ". . . the gifts ceased and restarted in the last century." This statement is intended to lead one to believe the gifts we are currently seeing are not from God, but from Satan. Can you positively state that God never gives anyone the gift of knowledge, the gift of faith, or the gift of wisdom, through the power of the Holy Spirit? One might say I am a light cessationist because I think the majority of people who speak in tongues do so falsely. However, this could not be further from the truth. I am a continuationist not because I see many people using false gifts to deceive the masses, but because I am reassured by God, through Scripture and the Holy Spirit, that God bestows on His believers spiritual gifts when He sees necessary. I do not need miracles to come before my faith in Jesus Christ, nor do I believe miracles and physical healings are more important than spiritual healing and obedience to Christ. It is obvious, especially in the Book of John that, miraculous signs and healings are secondary to the act of receiving the grace of Christ. Does this mean, however, that spiritual gifts no longer exist? I think not! And while I have provided you, I feel, anyway, ample biblical support as to why the spiritual gifts have not ceased, you have yet to respond to any specific points I have addressed. In contrast, you have provided no biblical/Scriptural support as to why you believe spiritual gifts have ceased.

Grace and Peace!

 

[enoch1nine]

Another thing I focused on is verse 10 of 1 Corinthians 13, what does Paul mean when he says, ". . . then that which is in part shall be done away"?

Talking about charity, then in verse 8-11 is saying that prophesy, tongues and knowledge are things which will partially, that is, the parts done in error, be done away with. Fixed if you will. But charity don't need fixing.
Verse 12 is one day understanding yourself the way God has always understood you, as opposed to seeing yourself through a dark glass, a dim version of self as opposed to how God feels about you.