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it sounds more like you want to well trained servant/bank account than a husband.
U
Ugly
Guest
This concept of 'expecting chivalry' has to be done cautiously.
A Friend of a friend (yes thats what i said) told a story where a man picked her up for dinner on a first date. He was a nice looking man, well dressed and had a good job and financial security. He seemed to be a nice enough guy. He came to her door, took her to the car and he got in. She stood next to her door waiting for him to open it. She did not ask him to, did nothing but stand there expectantly. He had no idea what she wanted. Finally she just turned around and went inside without explanation to him. I felt this was disrespectful of her to him She had expectations but refused to vocalize them. And lets remember, chivalrous actions does not prove anything about a guy. Players are often chivalrous because they know the effect it has on women, but a man could be a good man, but just not raised to be chivalrous, that doesn't mean he would be a bad husband or boyfriend.
Now i'm not saying i'm against the idea, i'm just saying to be reasonable about your expectations.
Personally, i sometimes like when a woman doesn't expect certain things from me. Because when i do them, i don't feel like i'm doing anything special for them, but rather following her 'rules'. To me, it loses any meaning or affection behind the action and makes it feel more like a chore, and something i don't want to have to do.
A Friend of a friend (yes thats what i said) told a story where a man picked her up for dinner on a first date. He was a nice looking man, well dressed and had a good job and financial security. He seemed to be a nice enough guy. He came to her door, took her to the car and he got in. She stood next to her door waiting for him to open it. She did not ask him to, did nothing but stand there expectantly. He had no idea what she wanted. Finally she just turned around and went inside without explanation to him. I felt this was disrespectful of her to him She had expectations but refused to vocalize them. And lets remember, chivalrous actions does not prove anything about a guy. Players are often chivalrous because they know the effect it has on women, but a man could be a good man, but just not raised to be chivalrous, that doesn't mean he would be a bad husband or boyfriend.
Now i'm not saying i'm against the idea, i'm just saying to be reasonable about your expectations.
Personally, i sometimes like when a woman doesn't expect certain things from me. Because when i do them, i don't feel like i'm doing anything special for them, but rather following her 'rules'. To me, it loses any meaning or affection behind the action and makes it feel more like a chore, and something i don't want to have to do.
U
Ugly
Guest
I thought your original response was just right. You respect the treatment, but don't demand it.
Women should expect to be treated well, respected, honored, listened to, but should not expect doors to always be held open, etc... Women are not princesses and are not made 'special'. Its funny that i saw 'women are made special' and 'men and women are equal' in the same post.
I have no intentions of pampering or catering to my wife like shes the queen of the castle. I will do my best to treat her as good as i can, provide for her, and try my hardest to be a good husband according to biblical and personal standards. But i will not be put on some leash and expected to be guided around and told how to act, think and feel.
I enjoy being treated like a lady. More often than not I do not get doors held open for me , though I hold them for other people, and still never get a 'thank you'...but I have learned to not expect a thanks. In this day and age most people are impolite, and that saddens me. If a guy holds a door open for me (Or a girl, for that matter) I always say ''Thank you very much''. I like to think other people around me will hear me being polite and perhaps they will pick up the habit... We'll see!
*** And if Chivalry is dead, it's because feminism killed it.
*** And if Chivalry is dead, it's because feminism killed it.
J
Jullianna
Guest
I like it when a guy opens doors for me, but I'm not going to have a childish hissy fit and stomp back into the house if he doesn't. That's just silly. I can't imagine how hurtful the experience Ugly described must have been for that guy.
And if I get to a door first, I can open it just fine and hold it for the next person, regardless of their gender. To me, chivalry is a COURTESY, not something to be demanded. If something isn't done out of affection, isn't voluntary, or I have to ask it's meaningless.
I'm from the South, where manners are a huge deal. My momma would have slapped me silly for not doing certain things, but a lot of these things are not taught by parents anymore. Maybe the parents of the parents dropped the ball...who knows, but that is no reason to be critical, rude or judgmental of someone. To me, making someone feel badly about something like that would be more rude than someone not knowing what to do in a given situation.
I do know a little bit of what it's like from the guy's point of view because I have taught my son to open doors for ladies and others, stand when a lady or an elder enters the room (and give up his seat if there are none available), pull a lady's or elder's chair out for them at the table, go to the door when he picks up a girl/don't sit in the car and honk, MEET her folks and ask what time she should be home, wait for a lady to offer her hand to shake, table manners, etc. And he has actually had girls be rude to him about doing these things, and then wonder why he never asks them out again.
BUT...he dated one girl whose mother told me that the girl came home and said that she "finally knew what it was like to be treated like a lady."
I'm a huge tomboy. Everyone knows that.
I'm a strong woman, but I am definitely NOT a feminist by any means. So, I have to admit that when a guy takes my hand or puts his hand on the small of my back and guides me into a room full of people, it totally melts me to the core. To me, it's him saying to the entire room - this is my lady. It's very touching.
It's even cooler if he doesn't get mad if I outshoot him the next day.
And if I get to a door first, I can open it just fine and hold it for the next person, regardless of their gender. To me, chivalry is a COURTESY, not something to be demanded. If something isn't done out of affection, isn't voluntary, or I have to ask it's meaningless.
I'm from the South, where manners are a huge deal. My momma would have slapped me silly for not doing certain things, but a lot of these things are not taught by parents anymore. Maybe the parents of the parents dropped the ball...who knows, but that is no reason to be critical, rude or judgmental of someone. To me, making someone feel badly about something like that would be more rude than someone not knowing what to do in a given situation.
I do know a little bit of what it's like from the guy's point of view because I have taught my son to open doors for ladies and others, stand when a lady or an elder enters the room (and give up his seat if there are none available), pull a lady's or elder's chair out for them at the table, go to the door when he picks up a girl/don't sit in the car and honk, MEET her folks and ask what time she should be home, wait for a lady to offer her hand to shake, table manners, etc. And he has actually had girls be rude to him about doing these things, and then wonder why he never asks them out again.
BUT...he dated one girl whose mother told me that the girl came home and said that she "finally knew what it was like to be treated like a lady."
I'm a huge tomboy. Everyone knows that.
I'm a strong woman, but I am definitely NOT a feminist by any means. So, I have to admit that when a guy takes my hand or puts his hand on the small of my back and guides me into a room full of people, it totally melts me to the core. To me, it's him saying to the entire room - this is my lady. It's very touching. It's even cooler if he doesn't get mad if I outshoot him the next day.
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pinkstix56
Guest
I don't consider a man being respectful and acting like Jesus would towards me an insult. Women lets face it, a lot of the things we complain about are mostly from our own actions. Yes. It is good to be strong. But at the same time don't be prideful. We ( in general) can actually stop that man from doing what God has called them to do.
" Set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. For you died, and your life is now hidden in Christ in God."- Colossians 3:1-3.
" Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved. clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience." Colossians 3 12
" Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for human masters." Colossians 3:23
I felt led to put these scriptures up for a specific reason. In the Bible it explains to us that through accepting Him, we become a new creation in Christ. The best way we can show people about how God truly is all depends on how we treat each other.
For a man to treat a woman with gentleness and kindness, it truly does emulate who God is. We are a witness to everyone. Whether this guy is a just a friend, boyfriend or husband, whatever he does for you because of the love of God in Him speaks VOLUMES to people who are not saved.
Why? Because you two are working together to witness God's word. It's not about women feeling weak. In no way shape or form does God say we're weak or not strong enough just because we let that man open the door for us.
Look far beyond what the feminist ideology says, it's not that we are weak. How can we witness to a lost generation if we're not working together? Instead of taking offense...be eager....witnessing the word goes far beyond preaching.... it can be expressed through our actions towards one another.
" Set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. For you died, and your life is now hidden in Christ in God."- Colossians 3:1-3.
" Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved. clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience." Colossians 3 12
" Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for human masters." Colossians 3:23
I felt led to put these scriptures up for a specific reason. In the Bible it explains to us that through accepting Him, we become a new creation in Christ. The best way we can show people about how God truly is all depends on how we treat each other.
For a man to treat a woman with gentleness and kindness, it truly does emulate who God is. We are a witness to everyone. Whether this guy is a just a friend, boyfriend or husband, whatever he does for you because of the love of God in Him speaks VOLUMES to people who are not saved.
Why? Because you two are working together to witness God's word. It's not about women feeling weak. In no way shape or form does God say we're weak or not strong enough just because we let that man open the door for us.
Look far beyond what the feminist ideology says, it's not that we are weak. How can we witness to a lost generation if we're not working together? Instead of taking offense...be eager....witnessing the word goes far beyond preaching.... it can be expressed through our actions towards one another.
"Well, I do declare madam........"
Shall I spread my coat over this mud puddle for you?
( The mud puddle might be an open man hole cover)
- - - - - - - -
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What I'm saying is beware of men who are overly chivalrous.
Be careful for people who flatter you with either words or deeds.
Many bad men seek a 'good' woman to marry so she can be their mother figure. (Stay loyal to them while they do their exploits)
Shall I spread my coat over this mud puddle for you?
( The mud puddle might be an open man hole cover)
- - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - -
What I'm saying is beware of men who are overly chivalrous.
Be careful for people who flatter you with either words or deeds.
Many bad men seek a 'good' woman to marry so she can be their mother figure. (Stay loyal to them while they do their exploits)
A
AgeofKnowledge
Guest
H
Hellooo
Guest
J
Jesusaddict
Guest
I think that there is nothing wrong with a man being chivalrous to a woman. I also believe that accepting chivalry does not compromise your independence, I think being independent has nothing to do with whether a man is chivalrous. I would argue that at the end of the day Chivalry is a mind set of men trating womenlike they are ladies and respecting them. I do not think it is about men seeing women as inferior. The bible says we were all created equal, we're not the same but equal. In my limited experience, there are fewer men these days who are chivalrous and maybe it is because they have not been brought up that way or they have tried being chivalrous and women have shot them down, I don't know. I would argue that we should treat everyone with respect and have in mind that every single person is fearfully and wonderfully made.
... with their permission, I hope?
Somehow I knew that someone was going to edit out the explanation.
Somehow I knew that someone was going to edit out the explanation.
Well, the way you worded it was an attractive nuisance. So I get to blame you for my immaturity.
As is my habit, I re-read my original post prior to posting it and added the explanation specifically because of people like you.
K
kayem77
Guest
There are so many good points already mentioned in this thread, so I will highlight the most important ones for me:
- I like chivalry personally, but there has to be a balance. I don't expect my boyfriend or husband to ALWAYS open the door for me, or to ALWAYS pay for the bill. It's nice when someone does it but I would get tired of always waiting for him in order to get out of a building when I can just do it by myself. I tend to be impatient. (Do you have to be chilvalrous when a building is on fire? ''NOOO WAIT, HE HAS TO OPEN THE DOOR FOR ME!'') . And I understand if he can't pay for my food, I would rather go out with him and pay for my own food or even his if he can't, than not going out at all because he HAS to pay for everything. Or we can do something for free . I even think it can be prideful if he thinks that HE IS THE ONLY ONE who can pay for things.
- I want my date/boyfriend/husband to do chivalrious acts because he feels like doing it. Not because he feels that he is doing me a favor.
- There are things I actually expect him to do. Maybe I'm being too traditionalist but one of the few things I agreed on with my parents is that if a guy is picking you up at your house, he has to get out of the car and actually knock on the door and at least, say hi to my parents. I think that sitting in the car honking the horn is just bad manners in general.
- Opening the door and offer to pay for the meal doesn't have to be something only couples do. If my friends can do it and I can do it with my friends, why can't I do it with my husband? I open the door to strangers all the time, male or female.
My conclusion is that chilvalry with the right heart is something good. I would teach my sons to be chilvalrious if I had children, but I wouldn't want them to use it to manipulate women. I've seen those guys and I don't like it.
- I like chivalry personally, but there has to be a balance. I don't expect my boyfriend or husband to ALWAYS open the door for me, or to ALWAYS pay for the bill. It's nice when someone does it but I would get tired of always waiting for him in order to get out of a building when I can just do it by myself. I tend to be impatient. (Do you have to be chilvalrous when a building is on fire?
''NOOO WAIT, HE HAS TO OPEN THE DOOR FOR ME!'') . And I understand if he can't pay for my food, I would rather go out with him and pay for my own food or even his if he can't, than not going out at all because he HAS to pay for everything. Or we can do something for free . I even think it can be prideful if he thinks that HE IS THE ONLY ONE who can pay for things. - I want my date/boyfriend/husband to do chivalrious acts because he feels like doing it. Not because he feels that he is doing me a favor.
- There are things I actually expect him to do. Maybe I'm being too traditionalist but one of the few things I agreed on with my parents is that if a guy is picking you up at your house, he has to get out of the car and actually knock on the door and at least, say hi to my parents. I think that sitting in the car honking the horn is just bad manners in general.
- Opening the door and offer to pay for the meal doesn't have to be something only couples do. If my friends can do it and I can do it with my friends, why can't I do it with my husband? I open the door to strangers all the time, male or female.
My conclusion is that chilvalry with the right heart is something good. I would teach my sons to be chilvalrious if I had children, but I wouldn't want them to use it to manipulate women. I've seen those guys and I don't like it.
J
Jordache
Guest
Awesome oncefallen.
I'm not a pretty pretty princess. I am not incapable. Chivalry doesn't involve wearing the white gloves. As a few of you have said, its about treating a lady like a lady. Women, we aren't equal to man in all aspects; and that is not a threat. Men have a role. Women have a role. Each is equally important. Our femininity has become a vulnerability because of how we've been treated as a gender in the past, but that does that not discount Gods desire for us to live in the fullness of our feminine identity.
Two examples: I have a friend who has been married 3 yrs and still cannot boil water. She will not spend one night alone when her husband is working. She wont learn to shop, cook, assert herself in anyway, or do self-care. Her husband does EVERYTHING for her. He caters to her every whim. This is not chivalry. This is enabling.
Ex 2: I grew up with a single mom who taught me how to rule my world. What she didn't teach me came intuitively and I needed no one. I walked 30 miles or more a week just to get to church. I wouldn't allow people to give me rides home because I could take care of myself. I never asked for help from my church even when I had nothing because I knew how to tough it out. After all I was an independent woman. I purposely sped up so that men couldn't open my door. I had no idea that as a woman I was created with a certain delicacy and vulnerability. It's always been Gods plan for men to protect and provide for the earth including their helpmate. I've had to come to terms with men being in a position of authority over me. The fact is God placed my pastors over me for my protection. If my father in law said "you shouldn't wear that" that is him exercising his God given authority to protect my honor. Should men strap is in chastity belts? No. Does chilvalry mean we do nothin for ourselves or we default to men always? No. Does it mean we take advantage of men and demand everything from them? No. It's about Gods design for masculinity and femininity in its best expression to fully reflect Gods complete image which is delicate and vulnerable, and assertive and protective.
I'm not a pretty pretty princess. I am not incapable. Chivalry doesn't involve wearing the white gloves. As a few of you have said, its about treating a lady like a lady. Women, we aren't equal to man in all aspects; and that is not a threat. Men have a role. Women have a role. Each is equally important. Our femininity has become a vulnerability because of how we've been treated as a gender in the past, but that does that not discount Gods desire for us to live in the fullness of our feminine identity.
Two examples: I have a friend who has been married 3 yrs and still cannot boil water. She will not spend one night alone when her husband is working. She wont learn to shop, cook, assert herself in anyway, or do self-care. Her husband does EVERYTHING for her. He caters to her every whim. This is not chivalry. This is enabling.
Ex 2: I grew up with a single mom who taught me how to rule my world. What she didn't teach me came intuitively and I needed no one. I walked 30 miles or more a week just to get to church. I wouldn't allow people to give me rides home because I could take care of myself. I never asked for help from my church even when I had nothing because I knew how to tough it out. After all I was an independent woman. I purposely sped up so that men couldn't open my door. I had no idea that as a woman I was created with a certain delicacy and vulnerability. It's always been Gods plan for men to protect and provide for the earth including their helpmate. I've had to come to terms with men being in a position of authority over me. The fact is God placed my pastors over me for my protection. If my father in law said "you shouldn't wear that" that is him exercising his God given authority to protect my honor. Should men strap is in chastity belts? No. Does chilvalry mean we do nothin for ourselves or we default to men always? No. Does it mean we take advantage of men and demand everything from them? No. It's about Gods design for masculinity and femininity in its best expression to fully reflect Gods complete image which is delicate and vulnerable, and assertive and protective.