Christ is God

SilverFox7 · Sep 22, 2024

Good stuff, brother, and yes I'm quite familiar with these excellent verses from Paul. In fact, that's why I am of the school that those who are dead now in Christ are asleep in the grave and will be raised in that spiritual, incorruptible body when Christ returns "at the last trump." Think about it, if those who have died in Christ are in heaven right now, why is the resurrection necessary? Are we in some spiritual, soulful state in heaven until Christ's return and then we get united with the new body at the last trumpet? That just doesn't make sense to me.

This is a nice lead-in to that reference from Zechariah to The Feast of Tabernacles being celebrated after the "...King, the Lord of Hosts..." (Zech. 14: 16-19) has returned and established His Kingdom on earth. Again, why the Feast of Tabernacles? There's no reference to Passover or the other feasts of God here. Consider this, if the Feasts of God (Lev. chpt. 23 and detailed in many other scriptures throughout the Bible) provide us with a blueprint of God's plan of salvation for humanity, we might have an answer to the question:

Fulfilled Feasts

1. Passover and Days of Unleavened Bread: Christ's sacrifice and purging sin out of our lives

2. Pentecost: Coming of the Holy Spirit

Unfulfilled Feasts

3. Feast of Trumpets: 2nd Coming of Christ (1st resurrection of God's saints)

4. Day of Atonement: Satan bound

5. Feast of Tabernacles: Millenium

6. Last Great Day: Great White Throne judgement (2nd resurrection - "rest of the dead")

After Christ returns and is King over the earth, the only two Feasts that will be unfulfilled are The Feast of Tabernacles and the Last Great Day, which may help explain Zechariah's prophecy. Remember, Jesus went to The Feast of Tabernacles and told the religious leaders to "...judge with righteous judgement" (John 7: 24). That's exactly what Christ will do when He returns.

John 7:37-39

New King James Version

37 On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those [a]believing in Him would receive; for the [b]Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Of course, Pentecost is a partial fulfillment of this prophecy, but it will also apply during the Milennium when God's Spirit will be poured out throughout the planet to bring about a new era of peace for Israel and all the nations. God is going to show us how this world should be governed and ruled, and Satan will not be present to screw things up during the 1000 year period. The earth will no longer be cursed because Christ, His leadership, and priesthood will be bringing His Kingdom to the earth.

Isaiah 9:6-7

New King James Version

6 For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

References to the 1st and 2nd coming of our Lord and Savior!

Pilgrimshope · Sep 22, 2024

SilverFox7 said:

“Good stuff, brother, and yes I'm quite familiar with these excellent verses from Paul. In fact, that's why I am of the school that those who are dead now in Christ are asleep in the grave and will be raised in that spiritual, incorruptible body when Christ returns "at the last trump."

Brother I look at the Bible in two testaments. The Old Testament promised those of that covenant a resurrection when the messiah came. I’m talking about this stuff we find in the ot

“Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, and shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, ( in prophecy ) and performed it, ( in fulfillment ) saith the LORD.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭37:12-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

He had promised to do that not in the gospel to all people but for Israel his people according to the Old Testament word of the law and prophets. He said he would come to walk among them and raise them from the grave. And then he did that

“and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭27:52-53‬ ‭

do you acknolwedge the Old Testament promised a resurrection of the people and that they were raised up after Christ rose ? That what he said was fulfilled ? Of course after this he also put his spirit in the people and fulfilled the rest of the promises of the old covenant but just to focus on something I don’t think I’m being clear about

there are two testaments in the Bible each promising the people of that covenant resurrection when the messiah appears to fulfill each testament

One of those resurrections was about that specific generetion of Christ and those who had slept beforehand under the law and the promises of the prophets like the one above of life from death when the king of life came

There are two resurrections Christ and the firstfruits unto God his preists and judges.

“But every man in his own order: Christ , the firstfruits; ( 1st resurrection )

(and then at the end of the world everyone who believed the gospel and belongs to Christ at his 2nd coming )

afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.” ( our resurrection )
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The firstfruits are the first generetion who suffered so greatly under rome and were all slaughtered after they bore witness of the gospel what John was seeing was about to happen to them it was already happening but was about to break loose

that generation suffered with Christ because of Gods word many were burned alive and skinned and sawed in half and thrown to wild animals wrapped in oil soaked linens and crucified burned alive to light Nero’s garden Circus and it’s because of them and tbier perseverance that we all have a Bible to believe still

“And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judæa, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭1:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

There’s a difference in those foundational people of the church in the beginning and the church in general afterwards

“For we are labourers together with God:

ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭3:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

There’s a resurrection promised to us in the church as well in tbe New Testament when the messiah comes again he’ll raise up the dead again who belong to him as he did before when the many saints arose but it’s the resurrection we’re taught in the New Testament doctrine

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It seems to me that Revelation speaks about two resurrections because there are two resurrections promised in the Bible.

one by the Old Testament for Israel’s faithful and one in the New Testament promised to all people in the gospel for the church.

I enjoy the discussion brother always with you I just don’t see it like you are seeing it regarding this one

Im looking at two testaments , two promised resurrections , teo comings of the messiah at the end of each testament one when he was born here to fulfill a promise made before

“The law and the prophets were until John:

since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭16:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The ot would be fulfilled in his generation but the things the disciples preached were about things moving forward the second resurrection will happen when he comes and the foret happened when he came as he had promised

I believe the firstfruits are that he ration of the church hat differed with christ so much for the word of God and thier testimony we still have even today in thoer words

Bit honestly brother people interpreting revelation have many different views it’s interesting to me to find out other peoples views and why they think that which is why I enjoy discussion with you always

SilverFox7 · Sep 22, 2024

Pilgrimshope said:

“Good stuff, brother, and yes I'm quite familiar with these excellent verses from Paul. In fact, that's why I am of the school that those who are dead now in Christ are asleep in the grave and will be raised in that spiritual, incorruptible body when Christ returns "at the last trump."

Brother I look at the Bible in two testaments. The Old Testament promised those of that covenant a resurrection when the messiah came. I’m talking about this stuff we find in the ot

“Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, and shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, ( in prophecy ) and performed it, ( in fulfillment ) saith the LORD.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭37:12-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

He had promised to do that not in the gospel to all people but for Israel his people according to the Old Testament word of the law and prophets. He said he would come to walk among them and raise them from the grave. And then he did that

“and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭27:52-53‬ ‭

do you acknolwedge the Old Testament promised a resurrection of the people and that they were raised up after Christ rose ? That what he said was fulfilled ? Of course after this he also put his spirit in the people and fulfilled the rest of the promises of the old covenant but just to focus on something I don’t think I’m being clear about

there are two testaments in the Bible each promising the people of that covenant resurrection when the messiah appears to fulfill each testament

One of those resurrections was about that specific generetion of Christ and those who had slept beforehand under the law and the promises of the prophets like the one above of life from death when the king of life came

There are two resurrections Christ and the firstfruits unto God his preists and judges.

“But every man in his own order: Christ , the firstfruits; ( 1st resurrection )

(and then at the end of the world everyone who believed the gospel and belongs to Christ at his 2nd coming )

afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.” ( our resurrection )
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The firstfruits are the first generetion who suffered so greatly under rome and were all slaughtered after they bore witness of the gospel what John was seeing was about to happen to them it was already happening but was about to break loose

that generation suffered with Christ because of Gods word many were burned alive and skinned and sawed in half and thrown to wild animals wrapped in oil soaked linens and crucified burned alive to light Nero’s garden Circus and it’s because of them and tbier perseverance that we all have a Bible to believe still

“And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judæa, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭1:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

There’s a difference in those foundational people of the church in the beginning and the church in general afterwards

“For we are labourers together with God:

ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭3:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

There’s a resurrection promised to us in the church as well in tbe New Testament when the messiah comes again he’ll raise up the dead again who belong to him as he did before when the many saints arose but it’s the resurrection we’re taught in the New Testament doctrine

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It seems to me that Revelation speaks about two resurrections because there are two resurrections promised in the Bible.

one by the Old Testament for Israel’s faithful and one in the New Testament promised to all people in the gospel for the church.

I enjoy the discussion brother always with you I just don’t see it like you are seeing it regarding this one

Im looking at two testaments , two promised resurrections , teo comings of the messiah at the end of each testament one when he was born here to fulfill a promise made before

“The law and the prophets were until John:

since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭16:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The ot would be fulfilled in his generation but the things the disciples preached were about things moving forward the second resurrection will happen when he comes and the foret happened when he came as he had promised

I believe the firstfruits are that he ration of the church hat differed with christ so much for the word of God and thier testimony we still have even today in thoer words

Bit honestly brother people interpreting revelation have many different views it’s interesting to me to find out other peoples views and why they think that which is why I enjoy discussion with you always

Thank you my friend for the in-depth observations.

TMS · Sep 22, 2024

Pilgrimshope said:

I see 2 as well
The first fruits were exactly that a sample of the main harvest to come.

The 2 resurrections in revelation are seperated by 1000 years. And are for two classes the righteous and unrighteous.

The Bible states it clearly.

Joh 5:28-29 ..... all will be raised......
2 groups, 2 resurrections = damnation and life.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Rev 19 is about the coming of Jesus and the marriage... the saints are garthed to be with Jesus.

Rev 20:4-6 this is the first resurrection. .....
They shall reign with Christ for 1000 years.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The 2nd resurrection results in the 2nd death.
Rev 20:13-14
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

SilverFox7 · Sep 23, 2024

Pilgrimshope said:

I wanted to give you an award for this posting, brother, but for some reason the only reaction option I have right now is the default thumbs up "like." I really enjoy learning your views on this topic, and it's helping me to rethink other possibilities from what I learned in my "seminary" days back in my 20s about prophecy. I don't know about you, but I have changed a lot since then in my theological thinking, and I have become more grounded in the Gospel. Notice how the two of us are almost totally aligned on the Gospel, yet we have diverse opinions on Revelation and different prophecies - quite interesting.

The Mount of Olives has been on my mind recently, and I came across another really cool reference to it that I had never really noticed until our discussion. After Jesus spent time at the Feast of Tabernacles teaching, disputing with "the Jews", and evading the religious authorities who wanted him seized and brought to the "chief priests and Pharisees" (John 7: 45), "...Jesus went to the Mount of Olives" (John 8:1).

After His time at the Feast, Jesus went back to the Mount of Olives and early the next morning He returned to the temple to teach like Luke noted in his account. It's like the Mount of Olives was His home base when Jesus spent time in Jerusalem, probably camping in booths. The Feast of Tabernacles takes place in the fall, September/October on the lunar calendar, and I believe it was that next Spring that Jesus made His triumphal descent into Jerusalem before the Passover festival where He would be sacrificed as the true Lamb of God.

SilverFox7 · Sep 23, 2024

SilverFox7 said:

I wanted to give you an award for this posting, brother, but for some reason the only reaction option I have right now is the default thumbs up "like." I really enjoy learning your views on this topic, and it's helping me to rethink other possibilities from what I learned in my "seminary" days back in my 20s about prophecy. I don't know about you, but I have changed a lot since then in my theological thinking, and I have become more grounded in the Gospel. Notice how the two of us are almost totally aligned on the Gospel, yet we have diverse opinions on Revelation and different prophecies - quite interesting.

The Mount of Olives has been on my mind recently, and I came across another really cool reference to it that I had never really noticed until our discussion. After Jesus spent time at the Feast of Tabernacles teaching, disputing with "the Jews", and evading the religious authorities who wanted him seized and brought to the "chief priests and Pharisees" (John 7: 45), "...Jesus went to the Mount of Olives" (John 8:1).

After His time at the Feast, Jesus went back to the Mount of Olives and early the next morning He returned to the temple to teach like Luke noted in his account. It's like the Mount of Olives was His home base when Jesus spent time in Jerusalem, probably camping in booths. The Feast of Tabernacles takes place in the fall, September/October on the lunar calendar, and I believe it was that next Spring that Jesus made His triumphal descent into Jerusalem before the Passover festival where He would be sacrificed as the true Lamb of God.

Here's a really short but good article about the Feasts of God from a Christian perspective:

The Feasts of Israel | Jews | Lamb and Lion Ministries (christinprophecy.org)

Pilgrimshope · Sep 23, 2024

SilverFox7 said:

It’s always a pleasure to discuss and hear from you especially things like this always seems to go somewhere for me

i was thinking last night about what Jesus had said of his particular generation of followers in the gospel before he had sent the gospel to all people and the hundred fourty four thousand who were sealed before the destruction is allowed to happen in revelation sort of some of this stuff

“but ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem,and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.”

‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭12:22-24‬ ‭

“till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. “

“And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: and they sung as it were a new song before the throne, ( thrones in heaven ) and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.”

‭‭Revelation‬ ‭14:1-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting. ….Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.”

‭‭James‬ ‭1:1, 18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. And it shall turn to you for a testimony.

And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake. But there shall not an hair of your head perish.

In your patience possess ye your souls.

( Thisnos specific to the ones he’s talking to in that day he’s preparing them for Jerusalems siege destruction and desolation by rome shortly coming upon them then )

And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judæa flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭21:12-13, 16-24‬

ive never really looked into the 144000 but it seems as if they are the people in the heavenly sion with Christ before the people of all nations appear afterwards singing of the lamb slain and salvetion i was noticing some things after our talk looking through revelation

“And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: and they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.”

later we see the Christian’s and saints killed and destroyed for three and a half years by the beast and later we see

“And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

And they sing the song of Moses ( because it’s the tribes of Israel the hundred footy four thousand sealed ) the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, ( who believed the gospel as well) saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints. Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.” ( In the gospel sent to all people )
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭15:2-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20:4‬ ‭

It seems it’s a group of chosen from the tribes of Israel who were martyred and who endured the great tribulation of Jerusalems desolation in that last generetion of thier covenant

SilverFox7 · Sep 23, 2024

Pilgrimshope said:

It’s always a pleasure to discuss and hear from you especially things like this always seems to go somewhere for me

i was thinking last night about what Jesus had said of his particular generation of followers in the gospel before he had sent the gospel to all people and the hundred fourty four thousand who were sealed before the destruction is allowed to happen in revelation sort of some of this stuff

“but ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem,and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.”

‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭12:22-24‬ ‭

“till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. “

“And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: and they sung as it were a new song before the throne, ( thrones in heaven ) and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.”

‭‭Revelation‬ ‭14:1-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting. ….Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.”

‭‭James‬ ‭1:1, 18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. And it shall turn to you for a testimony.

And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake. But there shall not an hair of your head perish.

In your patience possess ye your souls.

( Thisnos specific to the ones he’s talking to in that day he’s preparing them for Jerusalems siege destruction and desolation by rome shortly coming upon them then )

And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judæa flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭21:12-13, 16-24‬

ive never really looked into the 144000 but it seems as if they are the people in the heavenly sion with Christ before the people of all nations appear afterwards singing of the lamb slain and salvetion i was noticing some things after our talk looking through revelation

“And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: and they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.”

later we see the Christian’s and saints killed and destroyed for three and a half years by the beast and later we see

“And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

And they sing the song of Moses ( because it’s the tribes of Israel the hundred footy four thousand sealed ) the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, ( who believed the gospel as well) saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints. Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.” ( In the gospel sent to all people )
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭15:2-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20:4‬ ‭

It seems it’s a group of chosen from the tribes of Israel who were martyred and who endured the great tribulation of Jerusalems desolation in that last generetion of thier covenant

That is a great idea, brother, and it makes sense to me, especially given the "firstfruits" celebration that took place during the Passover "pilgrimage" feast. That's well before the Fall feasts where the two resurrections are connected as future events after the Church era.

I will dive into this a little more and advise later, but I think you're on to something...

Pilgrimshope · Sep 23, 2024

SilverFox7 said:

Old testament prophecy 700 bc

“And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.”
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭7:25-27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the gospel

“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28:18-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations. And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; that ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭22:28-30‬ ‭

“And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, and hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭1:5-6, 9‬ ‭

“And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭6:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:17‬ ‭

“Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭14:12-13‬ ‭

“and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.”

“And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:10-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

‭….
“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

SilverFox7 · Sep 24, 2024

Pilgrimshope said:

It sure looks plausible to me that the 144,000 and perhaps many other saints are in heaven right now based on the study we have done and the scriptures you have shared. I have definitely become open to this idea even though I was brought up in a church that held firmly to the idea that the resurrection at Christ's return is when that will happen. I really like the graphic provided in the article I shared a few posts ago, and I think it's important to understand the Jewish Feasts as a foundation for prophecy:

Notice the question marks beside the "Christian Event" column for Trumpets and the Day of Atonement. In the church I was in that spent a lot of time trying to understand prophecy and end time events (too much time and we made some inaccurate predictions), Trumpets was tied to the Second Coming and Atonement focused more on Satan being bound. We didn't believe in the rapture or the Jewish Remnant (I need to learn more about this one). Having the Day of Atonement tied to the Second Coming of Jesus makes sense to me because we will not have full atonement with God until we are resurrected into our new bodies that aren't polluted by sin like this vessel we are living in now.

First Fruits is plural, which implies more than one, and I like the idea that it may include the 144,000 and perhaps others who were resurrected out of their graves at Christ's sacrifice and maybe those who died in the tribulation by Rome in AD 70 that the Olivet prophecy in large part addresses. But, look at what Paul has to say about this:

1 Corinthians 15:20-23

New King James Version

20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have [a]fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

This implies to me that Christ (singular) is the firstfruits (plural). That doesn't make sense grammatically, but we're not talking about grammar here. This is also one of those pivotal verses we fell back on (along with I Corinthians 15 as a whole) in my church to support our theory that nobody who has died in Christ will be in heaven until He returns and the resurrection of the saints occurs. Well, Paul commented earlier in this epistle that "For now we see in a mirror dimly" (I Cor. 13: 12). Hey, I'll take whatever glimpses I can get of the future Kingdom no matter how murky the water is right now!

Pilgrimshope · Sep 24, 2024

SilverFox7 said:

Yes another member magenta also has a lot of cool things to say about the feasts and how they tie into prophecy also Aaron

i like to study particular subjects for instance some things the Bible says that crested the idea of a new heavenly Jerusalem forms good scriptural thinking in my own opinion about whatever subject whoch helps later to understand concepts th at recur repeatedly in tbe bible and the book of revelation

“In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:2-3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭3:1-2

“Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

… But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:13, 16‬ ‭KJV‬

“But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, Neither have entered into the heart of man, The things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭2:9-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“In the visions of God brought he me into the land of Israel, and set me upon a very high mountain, by which was as the frame of a city on the south. And he brought me thither, and, behold, there was a man, whose appearance was like the appearance of brass, with a line of flax in his hand, and a measuring reed; and he stood in the gate.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭40:2-3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; and had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel ot mediated by angels at the gates )

And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof. ( the man with the measuring reed in Ezekiel 40 measures those things in tbat vision of the city in heaven )

And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass. And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.” ( everyone else is cast into the lake of fire before this )
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:10-15, 21-23, 27‬ ‭

but ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem,and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭12:22-24‬ ‭

“.But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. ( lake of fire )

Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:7, 10, 13‬ ‭

“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end.

I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:2-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It’s a new order and promise , an eternal place for eternal life

“Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants;

the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭4:24-26‬ ‭

i like the study and learning part alot letting the scripture take you wherever it does . I learned that alot of the conclusions I had heard most of my life really can be challenged by what scripture says about each particular subject and forms a more consistent message making more sense than some of those conclusions I both had myself and had heard before

TheLearner · Sep 24, 2024

SilverFox7 · Sep 25, 2024

Pilgrimshope said:

@Magenta is a star, and I love her artwork. I've seen some of @Aaron56 postings, and he is a serious student of The Word as well.

Pilgrimshope said:

Amen! Heaven and keeping our eyes on "the prize" of being with Christ in His Kingdom gives us purpose and hope. If a new disciple asked me where they should start reading the Bible, I would tell them to start at the end and read chapters 21 & 22 of Revelation to see how the story ends -with a new beginning in the New Heavens, New Earth, and New Jerusalem. One of my favorite verses in the Bible is

Revelation 21:3-4

New King James Version

3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

This shows the true intention of our God who is a caring Creator that will wipe away all the sadness and gladly make us a part of His family forever!

Magenta · Sep 25, 2024

SilverFox7 said:

Hebrews 13:14~ This world is not our home; we are looking forward to our everlasting home in heaven. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain

JaumeJ · Sep 25, 2024

Is it probable that the Tabernacle mentioned is the New Jerusalem? I know many are not aware that the Tre meaning of the word, Zion, is heaven. So many are deceived into believing it is of this age on the present earth.

Pilgrimshope · Sep 25, 2024

SilverFox7 said:

I agree Ive done several hiests of her artwork lol for my screen savers but now I just save every one and send some to people in tbe local prayer chain or study group . They’re inspiring and lovely and it saves my fingers . She’s of course given me permission after several thefts lol but I repented ha ha so

I think it’s really neat how if you take a macro view of the Bible it starts here

“In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

…So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it….
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:1, 27-

then later in the middle

“For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth:

and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭65:17-18‬ ‭

“Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. …he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.

Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth,

I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; to open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them. Sing unto the LORD a new song,….
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭42:1, 3-10‬ ‭

theres this idea from a macro view of creation , then a fall because of mans dominion on earth and satans rebellion in heaven then a promise to destroy this earth and heaven which he created in the beginning and we exist in now , but a promise for a new heaven and new earth he creates and then at the end of the Bible in chapter 21 like your saying there we are a new beginning of a new creation and the future is unwritten as far as we know I’m sure it’s written but our revelation ends with a future full of hope and life with God forever in a glorious kingdom of light and live and light without death or sorrow or tears wi here God walks among us upon a new and clean earth

and there’s just an eternity of possibilities ahead from where we end there what glorious intentions he must have for the universe he created and all those distant dollar systems and star systems we are truly like the “blue dot “ picture from voyager space craft showed

a tiny spec of blue in a small bubble in a vast and specious universe with inummersble galaxies and lights and possibilities God , I believe is so much more than even the bibles explains to us mortals and has so much greater plans for eternal life than we can fathom

Its worth seeking after him forever in my opinion if we hear and believe his promises of eternal life

TheLearner · Sep 25, 2024

Magenta · Sep 25, 2024

Pilgrimshope said:

John 14:1-3 Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in Me. In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am.

Magenta · Sep 26, 2024

Pilgrimshope said:

From Colossians 3:1-3
Thank you for the inspiration! I hope you and yours are well .

Pilgrimshope · Sep 27, 2024

SilverFox7 said:

i really like the look you took at this and what your thinking

“First Fruits is plural, which implies more than one, and I like the idea that it may include the 144,000 and perhaps others who were resurrected out of their graves at Christ's sacrifice and maybe those who died in the tribulation by Rome in AD 70 that the Olivet prophecy in large part addresses. But, look at what Paul has to say about this:”

The graphics does open up a good subject for study I’ve never really studied the feasts much but had good discussions with magenta Aaron and a few others who were talking also about what the graphic is showing there . I like how the graphic lines the concept up a lot really a good presentation of the thought

ever noticed this before speaking of Jerusalems destruction beforehand ?

“And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brasen altar.

And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed with linen, which had the writer's inkhorn by his side; and the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.

And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women:

but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house. And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city.

And it came to pass, while they were slaying them, and I was left, that I fell upon my face, and cried, and said, Ah Lord GOD! wilt thou destroy all the residue of Israel in thy pouring out of thy fury upon Jerusalem?

Then said he unto me, The iniquity of the house of Israel and Judah is exceeding great, and the land is full of blood, and the city full of perverseness: for they say, The LORD hath forsaken the earth, and the LORD seeth not. And as for me also, mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity, but I will recompense their way upon their head.

And, behold, the man clothed with linen, which had the inkhorn by his side, reported the matter, saying, I have done as thou hast commanded me.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭9:2-11‬

then in johns apocalypse… a heavenly version applying to the whole earth beginning with Jerusalem

“And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭7:2-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: and they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭14:1-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

to me this is the first generetion church with Jesus in heaven who suffered so greatly with him at first only Jews but later including others from all the nations around who heard the gospel so in the second part of johns vision there he sees another group appear from all nations shouting of the lamb

and later we see these groups continually re appearing in heaven shouting and praising and declaring things and serving in the temple as preists until the restoration at the end of heaven and earth

“Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭7:15-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

later after the last resurrection we see this all come to a new earth coming down from heaven after the judgement of all mankind

“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. ( she’s being I tied with the new earth creation he’s en and earth restored as one )

And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:1-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

to me it’s going to be as it was in Eden before man rebelled . God and man together again dwelling on earth as a family , a people and life rether than staying into death revelations a really interesting book in my view

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