Conditional Salvation
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[h=2]
Re: Conditional Salvation[/h]
Originally Posted by mailmandan
As long as you understand that it's not saved by grace through faith and works. Genuine faith will be accompanied by good works and a lack of good works demonstrates a dead faith. Faith is the root and good works are the fruit of salvation. No fruit demonstrates no root.
you say genuine faith will be accompanied by good works...which ties faith to works......which is what James says ...faith without works is dead...but you start by saying ...
you have to make up your mind....
can you be saved through faith without confirming your faith which would would make it a dead faith since it had not been confirmed by works...?
As long as you understand that it's not saved by grace through faith and works. Genuine faith will be accompanied by good works and a lack of good works demonstrates a dead faith. Faith is the root and good works are the fruit of salvation. No fruit demonstrates no root.
you have to make up your mind....
can you be saved through faith without confirming your faith which would would make it a dead faith since it had not been confirmed by works...?
One has taken possession of one's salvation, but that must be confirmed or it can be denied or lost. There is no guarantee in this life that any believer will inherit eternal life.
It definitely is a present reality, but it is not guaranteed to you just because one believed. It is the living out of that faith that will determine if that faith was indeed saving.
Attaining eternal life is being conformed to His Image. Striving toward perfection which we are commanded to achieve. Eternal life is all in the present living. The supreme reward is the Crown of Life. It is the prize that Paul is attempting to apprehend.
Salvation is in the doing, not the hearing. We were created to do the works, as the works were created for us to do. We were created to work with God in this created order to bring both creation, and our lives back to Him as a living sacrifice.
We are in the same situation as Adam. He was created already in a relationship with God. It was his to lose, which he did.
Christ recreated the world from the fall, so that all men, if they choose can rejoin with God in a relationship. Once in the relationship it is ours to lose, just as Adam. We are under the same commandment as he, either work with God and do His will, or go on your own. The end is all in your hands for which every man will give an account of his works what one did with the gifts given to him.
It definitely is a present reality, but it is not guaranteed to you just because one believed. It is the living out of that faith that will determine if that faith was indeed saving.
Attaining eternal life is being conformed to His Image. Striving toward perfection which we are commanded to achieve. Eternal life is all in the present living. The supreme reward is the Crown of Life. It is the prize that Paul is attempting to apprehend.
Salvation is in the doing, not the hearing. We were created to do the works, as the works were created for us to do. We were created to work with God in this created order to bring both creation, and our lives back to Him as a living sacrifice.
We are in the same situation as Adam. He was created already in a relationship with God. It was his to lose, which he did.
Christ recreated the world from the fall, so that all men, if they choose can rejoin with God in a relationship. Once in the relationship it is ours to lose, just as Adam. We are under the same commandment as he, either work with God and do His will, or go on your own. The end is all in your hands for which every man will give an account of his works what one did with the gifts given to him.
Which ties works to faith as the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of genuine faith, but not the essence of faith and not the means of salvation. Faith is the root and works are the fruit of salvation. No fruit demonstrates no root.
I agree with James that faith without works is dead. If a man says/claims he has faith but he has no works, he does not have genuine faith but an empty profession of faith, a dead faith.
I already made up my mind years ago to place my faith exclusively in Christ for salvation and not in works. It sounds like your faith is still in works for salvation.
No because faith that never produces any good works demonstrates that it's a dead faith, not a living faith in Christ that is evidenced by good works (Ephesians 2:5-10). Man is saved through faith and not by works; yet genuine faith is evidenced and confirmed by good works. That is the balance that gets out of balance by those who teach that salvation is by works.
I agree with James that faith without works is dead. If a man says/claims he has faith but he has no works, he does not have genuine faith but an empty profession of faith, a dead faith.
I already made up my mind years ago to place my faith exclusively in Christ for salvation and not in works. It sounds like your faith is still in works for salvation.
No because faith that never produces any good works demonstrates that it's a dead faith, not a living faith in Christ that is evidenced by good works (Ephesians 2:5-10). Man is saved through faith and not by works; yet genuine faith is evidenced and confirmed by good works. That is the balance that gets out of balance by those who teach that salvation is by works.
So 1 John 5:13 is an empty promise? These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.. What about Ephesians 1:13? - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. Prior to my conversion while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I lived in fear and bondage to IN-security because I was trusting in my works for salvation and never knew how much was enough. That was the whole deception. You could never do enough!
At least you acknowledge that it's a present reality, but since you trust in works for salvation, you are IN-secure. Faith that trusts exclusively in Christ for salvation is saving. Living out our faith is the demonstrative evidence of our faith.
So how long does that take and how can you know if you have reached perfection in this life? What about babes in Christ who die shortly after their conversion? They will end up in hell because there was not enough time to conform?
So eternal life is not the gift of God in Jesus Christ (Romans 6:23) but is a prize that we work really hard for and earn? In 1 Corinthians 9:24 - Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. That sounds like the Olympics and running to obtain a gold medal. Eternal life/salvation is a gift (Romans 6:23) received through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9). We don't run to earn and win eternal life like it's a gold medal in the Olympics. That equates to salvation by works.
Salvation is in the believing in Him (Christ) as the all sufficient means of our salvation. Doing is works.
We are saved FOR good works, not by good works (Ephesians 2:8-10).
Thank God I no longer have to live in that kind of fear and bondage to insecurity! What will our works determine in the end? Salvation or loss of salvation or REWARDS OR LOSS OF REWARDS? 1 Corinthians 3:13 - each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; (OF REWARD) but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire (as one escaping through the flames).
At least you acknowledge that it's a present reality, but since you trust in works for salvation, you are IN-secure. Faith that trusts exclusively in Christ for salvation is saving. Living out our faith is the demonstrative evidence of our faith.
So how long does that take and how can you know if you have reached perfection in this life? What about babes in Christ who die shortly after their conversion? They will end up in hell because there was not enough time to conform?
So eternal life is not the gift of God in Jesus Christ (Romans 6:23) but is a prize that we work really hard for and earn? In 1 Corinthians 9:24 - Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. That sounds like the Olympics and running to obtain a gold medal. Eternal life/salvation is a gift (Romans 6:23) received through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9). We don't run to earn and win eternal life like it's a gold medal in the Olympics. That equates to salvation by works.
Salvation is in the believing in Him (Christ) as the all sufficient means of our salvation. Doing is works.
We are saved FOR good works, not by good works (Ephesians 2:8-10).
Thank God I no longer have to live in that kind of fear and bondage to insecurity! What will our works determine in the end? Salvation or loss of salvation or REWARDS OR LOSS OF REWARDS? 1 Corinthians 3:13 - each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; (OF REWARD) but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire (as one escaping through the flames).
You have a very distorted concept of salvation. It seems strange that you were a Roman Catholic, but apparently one who did not understand salvation as a Catholic either. You have now jumped into an even bigger quagmire where individual man can interpret scripture to his liking and formulate a whole new brand of salvation that will fit his comfort zone. A nice philosophical concept but hardly scriptural.
I hear the term "positional" a lot among some Protestants. You seem to have this positional understanding. That one believes and it is immediately a genuine, mature faith that has guaranteed you eternal life without any of the commitments and obligations necessary to receive it. Adam did not possess it when he was created. Why would you think that God changed the reason for your existence as a human being. He corrected the fall, so that all men could have the same choice as Adam freely cooperating, synergistically with God to attain eternal life. Why do you think Christ became our model and example of living in this world?
Faith in Christ, believing that he saved us from death and sin and made union with Him possible again is just the means that God uses to differentiate from unbelief. It is the denial of self, taking up a servanthood, taking up our cross to follow Him, to be conformed to His image is what salvation has always been about. It is the living out of our faith that determines if faith is valid. We are called to transform this world. He called us to be co-reconcilers with Him.
We will give an account of our works. Why? Because if one has no works or stopped working, then it shows that he also lost faith. It is why it is called being saved through faith. Faith alone is meaningless, the works is the content of one's faith. Work justifies our faith which is what James states.
Very simply, no faith, no salvation.
Kinda contradictory statement. Trusting that Christ alone will save you is denying both God's intended purpose in creating man, and the reason Christ saved the world from death and sin. What Christ did, He did alone and man has nothing to do with what Christ accomplished. However His purpose in doing so, was to be able to be united with man is a loving, obedient, synergistic relationship, now and in eternity. It is the now, how faithful we are that will determine our eternal abode. The following is not gravy, or window dressing. It is the content of one's salvation, the attaining of eternal life.
And as you say, the works is evidence of ones faith. Thus if one stops, does not repent, the branch wlll be cut off and if one dies separated from God, there is no eternal life with Christ. Scripture gives no guarantees to man or for man that man can be, or will be always faithful. Your personal salvation does not depend on what God does but on what you do. If it was up to God only, then all men would be saved because God loves all men and desires that all would come to know Him.
A lifetime. You won't even reach perfection in eternity because we will always be creatures and cannot ever attain the absolute perfection of God. Why do you worry about babies? Are you a baby that it would concern you? Your concentration should be on you, not even anyone else. You are not God, nor will you be the judge. One needs to make sure he/she is being faithful.
That is your misconception again. They are obligations created for us, and we can either choose to do them or not dos them. The foundational obligation is to believe. That belief is supported by our commitment to work with God in this life.
Again, a gross misconception and you constantly contradict your own view by quoting scripture. See above explanation.
Yes, doing is works. You cannot believe or have faith without the works. No works is a dead, meaningless, worthless faith, a journey to hell. We are to be doers not just hearers.
You were created for good works. But only a believer, one who believes in the Creator, the Savior of the world, is permitted to enter into His Body, the hospital where the healing takes place. Without faith, one removes himself from the hospital and will not be healed.
Nice proof text but has nothing to do with individual, pew believers. It is being specifically directed at the teachers of the Gospel. Paul is a worker in that Kingdom, He is a builder in that kingdom as all those who have that obligation and were consecrated to that purpose.
By the way, the supreme prize, reward is the Crown of Life. (eternal life). This whole concept of rewards is pure Protestantism and I suspect it is held by only those that hold to some form/nuance to predestination, OSAS, Free Grace etc.
I hear the term "positional" a lot among some Protestants. You seem to have this positional understanding. That one believes and it is immediately a genuine, mature faith that has guaranteed you eternal life without any of the commitments and obligations necessary to receive it. Adam did not possess it when he was created. Why would you think that God changed the reason for your existence as a human being. He corrected the fall, so that all men could have the same choice as Adam freely cooperating, synergistically with God to attain eternal life. Why do you think Christ became our model and example of living in this world?
Faith in Christ, believing that he saved us from death and sin and made union with Him possible again is just the means that God uses to differentiate from unbelief. It is the denial of self, taking up a servanthood, taking up our cross to follow Him, to be conformed to His image is what salvation has always been about. It is the living out of our faith that determines if faith is valid. We are called to transform this world. He called us to be co-reconcilers with Him.
We will give an account of our works. Why? Because if one has no works or stopped working, then it shows that he also lost faith. It is why it is called being saved through faith. Faith alone is meaningless, the works is the content of one's faith. Work justifies our faith which is what James states.
Very simply, no faith, no salvation.
Kinda contradictory statement. Trusting that Christ alone will save you is denying both God's intended purpose in creating man, and the reason Christ saved the world from death and sin. What Christ did, He did alone and man has nothing to do with what Christ accomplished. However His purpose in doing so, was to be able to be united with man is a loving, obedient, synergistic relationship, now and in eternity. It is the now, how faithful we are that will determine our eternal abode. The following is not gravy, or window dressing. It is the content of one's salvation, the attaining of eternal life.
And as you say, the works is evidence of ones faith. Thus if one stops, does not repent, the branch wlll be cut off and if one dies separated from God, there is no eternal life with Christ. Scripture gives no guarantees to man or for man that man can be, or will be always faithful. Your personal salvation does not depend on what God does but on what you do. If it was up to God only, then all men would be saved because God loves all men and desires that all would come to know Him.
A lifetime. You won't even reach perfection in eternity because we will always be creatures and cannot ever attain the absolute perfection of God. Why do you worry about babies? Are you a baby that it would concern you? Your concentration should be on you, not even anyone else. You are not God, nor will you be the judge. One needs to make sure he/she is being faithful.
That is your misconception again. They are obligations created for us, and we can either choose to do them or not dos them. The foundational obligation is to believe. That belief is supported by our commitment to work with God in this life.
Again, a gross misconception and you constantly contradict your own view by quoting scripture. See above explanation.
Yes, doing is works. You cannot believe or have faith without the works. No works is a dead, meaningless, worthless faith, a journey to hell. We are to be doers not just hearers.
You were created for good works. But only a believer, one who believes in the Creator, the Savior of the world, is permitted to enter into His Body, the hospital where the healing takes place. Without faith, one removes himself from the hospital and will not be healed.
Nice proof text but has nothing to do with individual, pew believers. It is being specifically directed at the teachers of the Gospel. Paul is a worker in that Kingdom, He is a builder in that kingdom as all those who have that obligation and were consecrated to that purpose.
By the way, the supreme prize, reward is the Crown of Life. (eternal life). This whole concept of rewards is pure Protestantism and I suspect it is held by only those that hold to some form/nuance to predestination, OSAS, Free Grace etc.
If salvation by work than these group of High rank catholic official go to hell.
[h=1]Missing girl 'buried in murdered mobster's tomb was kidnapped for Vatican sex parties', claims Catholic Church's leading exorcist priest[/h]
PUBLISHED: 06:32 EST, 22 May 2012 | UPDATED: 14:30 EST, 23 May 2012
Outspoken: Father Gabriel Amorth said the 15-year-old was kidnapped for Vatican sex parties
The Catholic Church's leading exorcist priest has sensationally claimed a missing schoolgirl thought to be buried in a murdered gangster's tomb was kidnapped for Vatican sex parties.
Father Gabriel Amorth, 85, who has carried out 70,000 exorcisms, spoke out as investigators continued to examine mobster Enrico De Pedis's tomb in their hunt for Emanuela Orlandi.
Last week police and forensic experts broke into the grave after an anonymous phone call to a TV show said the truth about Emanuela's 1983 disappearance would be 'found there'.
And although bones not belonging to the mobster were recovered they have not yet been positively identified as hers.
However Father Amorth, in an interview with La Stampa newspaper, said: 'This was a crime with a sexual motive.
'It has already previously been stated by (deceased) monsignor Simeone Duca, an archivist at the Vatican, who was asked to recruit girls for parties with the help of the Vatican gendarmes.
'I believe Emanuela ended up in this circle. I have never believed in the international theory (overseas kidnappers). I have motives to believe that this was just a case of sexual exploitation.
'It led to the murder and then the hiding of her body. Also involved are diplomatic staff from a foreign embassy to the Holy See.'
Today there was no immediate response from the Vatican to Father Amorth's claims.
But Vatican officials insisted they had always co-operated with the investigation into Orlandi's disappearance - a claim that her brother has often disputed.
Mobster: De Pedis (left) is believed to have been linked to the kidnapping and murder of Emanuela Orlandi (right), who disappeared aged 15 in 1983
Father Amorth is a colourful figure who in the past has also denounced yoga and Harry Potter as the 'work of the Devil'. He was appointed by the late Pope John Paul II as the Vatican's chief exorcist.
It is not the first time Father Amorth has raised eyebrows with his forthright views - two years ago he said sex scandals rocking the Catholic Church were evidence 'the Devil was at work in the Vatican.
Read more: Gabriel Amorth claims Emanuela Orlandi, 'buried in Enrico De Pedis tomb', was 'kidnapped for Vatican sex parties' | Daily Mail Online
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
[h=1]Missing girl 'buried in murdered mobster's tomb was kidnapped for Vatican sex parties', claims Catholic Church's leading exorcist priest[/h]
- Father Gabriel Amorth, 85, has carried out more than 70,000 exorcisms
- Previously said yoga and Harry Potter are 'the work of the Devil'
- Emanuela Orlandi, 15, went missing in Rome in 1983
- Gangster Enrico De Pedis's tomb opened last week after TV show tip-off
PUBLISHED: 06:32 EST, 22 May 2012 | UPDATED: 14:30 EST, 23 May 2012
203View comments
Outspoken: Father Gabriel Amorth said the 15-year-old was kidnapped for Vatican sex parties
The Catholic Church's leading exorcist priest has sensationally claimed a missing schoolgirl thought to be buried in a murdered gangster's tomb was kidnapped for Vatican sex parties.
Father Gabriel Amorth, 85, who has carried out 70,000 exorcisms, spoke out as investigators continued to examine mobster Enrico De Pedis's tomb in their hunt for Emanuela Orlandi.
Last week police and forensic experts broke into the grave after an anonymous phone call to a TV show said the truth about Emanuela's 1983 disappearance would be 'found there'.
And although bones not belonging to the mobster were recovered they have not yet been positively identified as hers.
However Father Amorth, in an interview with La Stampa newspaper, said: 'This was a crime with a sexual motive.
'It has already previously been stated by (deceased) monsignor Simeone Duca, an archivist at the Vatican, who was asked to recruit girls for parties with the help of the Vatican gendarmes.
'I believe Emanuela ended up in this circle. I have never believed in the international theory (overseas kidnappers). I have motives to believe that this was just a case of sexual exploitation.
'It led to the murder and then the hiding of her body. Also involved are diplomatic staff from a foreign embassy to the Holy See.'
Today there was no immediate response from the Vatican to Father Amorth's claims.
But Vatican officials insisted they had always co-operated with the investigation into Orlandi's disappearance - a claim that her brother has often disputed.
Mobster: De Pedis (left) is believed to have been linked to the kidnapping and murder of Emanuela Orlandi (right), who disappeared aged 15 in 1983
Father Amorth is a colourful figure who in the past has also denounced yoga and Harry Potter as the 'work of the Devil'. He was appointed by the late Pope John Paul II as the Vatican's chief exorcist.
It is not the first time Father Amorth has raised eyebrows with his forthright views - two years ago he said sex scandals rocking the Catholic Church were evidence 'the Devil was at work in the Vatican.
Read more: Gabriel Amorth claims Emanuela Orlandi, 'buried in Enrico De Pedis tomb', was 'kidnapped for Vatican sex parties' | Daily Mail Online
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
A persons deeds/works will be used to determine/judge eternal destiny:
Rom 2:6-11
"Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God."