Conditional Salvation

[Bride]

Proverbs 24:16 - For a righteous man may fall seven times and rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity. Did Peter fall when he denied Christ three times? Did Peter fall/stumble when he played the part of the hypocrite and was not straightforward about the truth of the gospel around the Jews in Galatians 2:11-15? No theft, rape or murder was involved.

Peter didn't have the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ resurrected in him when He denied Jesus. And concerning the Galations, he was at fault for the dissemination, but never was it mentioned as sin. And it certainly can NOT be compared to denying Jesus three times.
Sin is quite a definitive transgressing of the law that is in NO WISE to be compared to Peter ERRING with the Jews in the beginnings of the ministry. You will be hard pressed to say Peter sinned here sir.
The topic here is SIN. Not making mistakes in preaching. I will deny that is sin.
Under the law, a righteous man WOULD fall and rise seven times even more because He didn't have Christ in Him until He Came as the Holy Spirit.
One can't bring faintly related scripture in to prove that we "can't live without sinning". Not one person here has proven it once. And most people here are full of nasty comments, let alone knowing scriptures.
So no, I don't think Peter sinned or Paul Sinned or John sinned. There is NO case ever to slightly resemble that they sinned after receiving the Spirit of Christ in them WHO CAN NOT SIN. We can especially know John didn't sin because he would have been a hypocrite for writing this verse if he was still a sinner;

(1Jn 3:9)
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Was John Lying? Sinning??

People, QUIT ARGUING AGAINST RIGHTEOUSNESS! QUIT ARGUING AGAINST BEING FORGIVEN AND SINLESS BY THE POWER OF CHRIST! YOU ARE DISGUSTING WHO DO!

 

[Bride]

Yes Ms. Bride, people love to take things out of context, say if one gets carried away at a celebration, drinks to much wine. This person gets drunk, he looks foolish and I call that sin, now if this person repents and remembers for next time. I believe this person is forgiven for their wrong. As for murdering and stealing there's a biggg difference, the COMMANDMENTS, say not to steal, commit adultery, murder, and so forth... Different penalties will apply as well. Again, God knows your heart.

Knowing what sin is, is a fairly simple undertaking. Thou shalt not kill, or thou shalt not steal, those are sins. Committing adultery is a sin.
I stopped committing adultery. Now it seems that "Christians" would like to burden me with an entirely new set of sins! They aren't written in my heart. They weren't even written under the law! What is up with that? Does no one know what Freedom is from the law of sin and death? It means not being under a law of sin and death lol! Not even made up ones like partying too hard one night

Enjoying one's self to extreme at a celebration and drinking too much wine, is never listed as a sin. It isn't a sin. It might not be fun the next day with the hangover, but there is absolutely no place in the Bible where it says, "don't party too hard sometimes" hehe.

No, let's deal with the topic of actual sins folks. Not made up ones ANYONE, DO YOU STILL SIN? And if so, what is it?

 

[ChristIsGod]

It depends how often that one gets drunk - right? ... 1Cor 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

 

[Brainfreeze]

It depends how often that one gets drunk - right? ... 1Cor 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

A drunkard is habitual, making a habit of.

 

[newbirth]

Knowing what sin is, is a fairly simple undertaking. Thou shalt not kill, or thou shalt not steal, those are sins. Committing adultery is a sin.
I stopped committing adultery. Now it seems that "Christians" would like to burden me with an entirely new set of sins! They aren't written in my heart. They weren't even written under the law! What is up with that? Does no one know what Freedom is from the law of sin and death? It means not being under a law of sin and death lol! Not even made up ones like partying too hard one night

Enjoying one's self to extreme at a celebration and drinking too much wine, is never listed as a sin. It isn't a sin. It might not be fun the next day with the hangover, but there is absolutely no place in the Bible where it says, "don't party too hard sometimes" hehe.

No, let's deal with the topic of actual sins folks. Not made up ones ANYONE, DO YOU STILL SIN? And if so, what is it?

1 Peter 4:3-5King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.


Ephesians 5:8-19King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

[SUP]9 [/SUP](For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

[SUP]19 [/SUP]Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

 

[mailmandan]

James 1:22
But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

Those who refuse to believe the Gospel are not saved or doers of the word no matter what else they set out to do. Verse 25 - But the one who looks into the perfect law of liberty, and continues, not being a hearer only who forgets but a doer who acts, he will be blessed in his doing. This is descriptive of children of God, not children of the devil (1 John 3:7-10). Believers are doers of the word BECAUSE they are saved, not to become saved by works.

 

[newbirth]

Those who refuse to believe the Gospel are not saved or doers of the word no matter what else they set out to do. Verse 25 - But the one who looks into the perfect law of liberty, and continues, not being a hearer only who forgets but a doer who acts, he will be blessed in his doing. This is descriptive of children of God, not children of the devil (1 John 3:7-10). Believers are doers of the word BECAUSE they are saved, not to become saved by works.

Believers are saved because they are doers of the word...one has to obey the gospel...the first thing one who believes does is repent...then they are baptised for the remission of sins...you just want to believe(faith without works) to be saved...and then repent and be baptised...

Luke 24:46-48King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]46 [/SUP]And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
[SUP]47 [/SUP]And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

[SUP]48 [/SUP]And ye are witnesses of these things.

 

[mailmandan]

I have already explained the Orthodox view. We believe whole heartedly in the texts you quoted of I Cor 15:1-4 and Rom 1:16.

You were not specific enough. What do you believe it means to BELIEVE the Gospel?

We also believe that His finished work not just sufficient for our salvation, but in fact saved all men and the world from death sin and Satan.

It's not about was His finished work of redemption sufficient to save the world from death and sin and Satan. It is sufficient. BUT the entire world will not all automatically be saved just because His finished work of redemption is sufficient. NOW, what exactly does it mean to BELIEVE the Gospel and receive salvation? How do you answer the question: What must I do to be saved? That question was answered in Acts 16:31 - BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. What do you believe it means to BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ/BELIEVE the Gospel?

Christ's work makes it possible to be united in faith with Christ and to attain eternal life.

What do you believe it means to be united in faith with Christ and to attain eternal life? For by grace, you have been saved through faith (Ephesians 2:8). Describe to me what you believe it means to be SAVED THROUGH FAITH. If you were standing at the gates of Heaven right now and the Lord Jesus Christ asked you why He should let you into Heaven, what would be your exact answer? Your answer will demonstrate exactly what your faith is in (what you are trusting in) to receive eternal life.

If you want a very detailed reason why we do not accept sola fide you can read the Book, Ausburg Confessions where Patriarch Jeremiah II rejected the overtures of the Tubningen Theologians (Lutherans) on the issue of sola fide

Why can't you simply tell me in your own words? Is it the same reason the Roman Catholic church does not accept sola fide? What is the difference between the plan of salvation in the Roman Catholic church and the Orthodox church?

 

[mailmandan]

Believers are saved because they are doers of the word...one has to obey the gospel...

I'm talking about being doers of the word after we believe the gospel and become saved. We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16).

the first thing one who believes does is repent..

Repentance actually precedes believing. We must "change our mind" about our sinful position and need for Christ to save us before we can believe in Him and be saved.

Matthew 21:32 - For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him. *Notice it's not believe him then afterwards repent.

Mark 1:15 - Repent and believe the gospel. *Notice it's not believe the gospel then afterwards repent.

Acts 20:21 - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.

.then they are baptised for the remission of sins..

They were baptized on the basis of the forgiveness of sins which they received through repentance.

Acts 3:19 - Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord. *What happened to baptism?

Acts 10:43-47 - To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins. While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit (BEFORE WATER BAPTISM - VS. 48) just as we have?" *What happened to baptism in verse 43?

Acts 11:17 - If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?" When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance unto life. *What happened to baptism?

Acts 15:8,9 - So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. *What happened to baptism?

Faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38; 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9). *Perfect Harmony*

.you just want to believe (faith without works) to be saved...and then repent and be baptised...

Genuine faith is not without works, but we are saved through faith and not by works. Repentance precedes faith in Christ for salvation and water baptism follows repentance/faith and conversion.

Luke 24:46-48King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]46 [/SUP]And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
[SUP]47 [/SUP]And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

[SUP]48 [/SUP]And ye are witnesses of these things.

*What happened to baptism in verse 47?

 

[Cassian]

You were not specific enough. What do you believe it means to BELIEVE the Gospel?

It means that I believe that Christ saved me from death and sin. That I can enter into union with Him and live my life according to His will, so that I might share in His Divine Nature. That I can be healed from the slavery to sin and be molded after His example.

It's not about was His finished work of redemption sufficient to save the world from death and sin and Satan. It is sufficient. BUT the entire world will not all automatically be saved just because His finished work of redemption is sufficient.

the world has been saved. It is ONLY the consummation that still is future. Christ saved the world so that all men could respond to His call to be united with Him. It is the same reason that man was created in the first place. The ONLY thing Christ did was reverse the fall. Man was created to be in union with God. a working relationship whereby man works with God to bring both his life and the world back to God as a living sacrifice. This is what Adam was doing prior to the fall and the result, condemnation of death. Most of your theological perspective falls with the fall of Adam. Then basically, you omit the work of Christ in reversing the fall and move to the union and you want God to do what you were specifically created to do. Christ did not save your soul from the Cross. He reversed the fall, so that you, with God can work out your salvation with fear and trembling. Sola fide is a denial of God's purpose in creating man, then recreating man by His Incarnation/resurrection.

NOW, what exactly does it mean to BELIEVE the Gospel and receive salvation?

Here, one is NOT saved, meaning one has NOT attained eternal life. One enters into His Kingdom, takes possession of eternal life, but attaining eternal life is being transformed, becoming perfected into His Likeness. Any man is free to leave as did Adam.

How do you answer the question: What must I do to be saved? That question was answered in Acts 16:31 - BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. What do you believe it means to BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ/BELIEVE the Gospel?

It means to willingly, freely join with Christ in a relationship of love and obedience. That I offer my heart and life back to God as a living sacrifice, wholly acceptable to Him.

What do you believe it means to be united in faith with Christ and to attain eternal life? For by grace, you have been saved through faith (Ephesians 2:8). Describe to me what you believe it means to be SAVED THROUGH FAITH. If you were standing at the gates of Heaven right now and the Lord Jesus Christ asked you why He should let you into Heaven, what would be your exact answer? Your answer will demonstrate exactly what your faith is in (what you are trusting in) to receive eternal life.

To be saved "through faith" means that I live my life in accordance with His will as scripture describes.
My answer to Him would be: Lord, have mercy upon me a sinner.

Why can't you simply tell me in your own words? Is it the same reason the Roman Catholic church does not accept sola fide? What is the difference between the plan of salvation in the Roman Catholic church and the Orthodox church?

Why would my words be any different than any Christian prior to the Reformation? The best answer is Peter's. "I believe that YOU are the Christ, the Son of the Living God. That belief justifies, but does not save a man, or does not automatically attain eternal life.
Unfortunately, the RC added merit through indulgences which Martin Luther rightly objected. But the Reformers in throwing out the baby, threw out the water as well. The Reformers developed a whole new paradigm based on three false teachings. Both Luther and Calvin were Augustinians. They adopted the assumptions of Original Sin, Satisfaction theory of atonement and added sola fide. Calvin added predestination and all the attending false tenets, and added penal substitution to Anselm's theory.
Luther, to correct what he thought was to much emphasis on tradition, he developed the concept of sola scriptura which was already being practiced by the RC, which is how all the changes were made by the RC. As they say, the rest is history. An ever slippery slope that has led to oblivion and meaninglessness of scripture.

Today there are a lot of differences between the RC and Orthodoxy. They are separating more as time goes by. The RC also has become relative and is being changed by society when it is supposed to be the other way around.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Romans 6:13
Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Ok, Great passage, it shows what we all should do.

But no where in that passage does it say you will be perfect or righteous.

We do not compair our righteousness to other people, we compare it to God. and if we do this, not one person alive will stack up. Remember the words of James, even one of the smallest sins will cause us ti be guilty of the whole law. which makes us unrighteous sinners worthy of condemnation.

So how good are you at being righteous??

 

[eternally-gratefull]

yea different penalties like ...the wages of sin is death.....unless your sins are forgiven the wage is death...

James 1:12-15King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

yep, the wage of sin is death, You have that right.

But why did you leave out the rest of the passage?

THE GIFT OF GOD is eternal LIFE. through Jesus Christ our lord.

So why are you trying to EARN a gift, when the sin in your life CONDEMNS you to death?

 

[newbirth]

I'm talking about being doers of the word after we believe the gospel and become saved. We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16).

you don't just believe the gospel and get saved...you obey what the gospel says and you get saved...faith without works is dead...
this is what we believe ...
Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Repentance actually precedes believing. We must "change our mind" about our sinful position and need for Christ to save us before we can believe in Him and be saved.

Matthew 21:32 - For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him. *Notice it's not believe him then afterwards repent.

Mark 1:15 - Repent and believe the gospel. *Notice it's not believe the gospel then afterwards repent.

If you knew nothing about God and someone told you to repent...would you know from what they are telling you to repent? But they now tell you about God...will you repent?...that depends on whether you believe or not....

can one who does not believe in God repent toward God who he does not believe in??
not everywhere you see the word repent in the scripture it is referring to repentance and remission of sins

Acts 20:21 - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.

They were baptized on the basis of the forgiveness of sins which they received through repentance.

Acts 3:19 - Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord. *What happened to baptism?

baptism is included in your conversion......

Acts 10:43-47 - To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins. While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit (BEFORE WATER BAPTISM - VS. 48) just as we have?" *What happened to baptism in verse 43?

you say these things because you believe in faith without works....the water is in... "believes in Him"

you think water is not important and only a sign....which is greater as a sign water or gift of the HS....yet Peter commandad that they be baptised....go figure

Acts 11:17 - If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?" When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance unto life. *What happened to baptism?

baptism is in...when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ,

Acts 15:8,9 - So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. *What happened to baptism?

baptism is in ......faith

Faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38; 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9). *Perfect Harmony*

Faith in Christ comes by hearing the word of God....when one believes the word they then repent and is baptised...

Genuine faith is not without works, but we are saved through faith and not by works. Repentance precedes faith in Christ for salvation and water baptism follows repentance/faith and conversion.

*What happened to baptism in verse 47

genuine faith is not without works........we are saved through faith and not works....the faith you are saved through is without works so according to you it is not genuine faith....because genuine faith is not without works

you want to repent before you have faith in Christ....faith comes by hearing the word of God (about Christ)...what you are saying is one must repent before he hears the word of God( about Christ)...

Repentance precedes faith in Christ

 

[Atwood]

Does this look conditional?

8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind of the flesh is death; but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace: 7 because the mind of the flesh is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be: 8 and they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwelleth in you, he that raised up Christ Jesus from the dead shall give life also to your mortal bodies through his Spirit that dwelleth in you.


12 So then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh: 13 for if ye live after the flesh, ye must die; but if by the Spirit ye put to death the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

15 For ye received not the spirit of bondage again unto fear; but ye received the spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit himself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are children of God: 17 and if children, then
heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified with him.


18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with
the glory which shall be revealed to us-ward. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation waiteth for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to vanity, not of its own will, but by reason of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into
the liberty of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only so, but ourselves also, who have the first-fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for our adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 24 For in hope were we saved: but hope that is seen is not hope: for who hopeth for that which he seeth? 25 But if we hope for that which we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.


26 And in like manner the Spirit also helpeth our infirmity: for we know not how to pray as we ought; but

the Spirit himself maketh intercession for us
with groanings which cannot be uttered; 27 and he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that to them that love God

all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose. 29 For whom
he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: 30 and whom
he foreordained, them he also called: and whom
he called, them he also justified: and whom
he justified, them
he also glorified.


31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us,
who is against us? 32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all,

how shall he not also with him freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth; 34 who is he that condemneth?

It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?
shall tribulation, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 Even as it is written,
For thy sake we are killed all the day long;
We were accounted as sheep for the slaughter.


Nay, in all these things
we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
For I am persuaded, that neither death,
nor life, nor angels, nor principalities,
nor things present, nor things to come,
nor powers, nor height, nor depth,
nor any other creature [including CC heretics],

shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[newbirth]

Does this look conditional?

8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus.

condition you have to be in Christ for no condemnnation

2

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind of the flesh is death; but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace: 7 because the mind of the flesh is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be: 8 and they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwelleth in you, he that raised up Christ Jesus from the dead shall give life also to your mortal bodies through his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

condition...who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.....if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you......if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwelleth in you

12 So then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh: 13 for if ye live after the flesh, ye must die; but if by the Spirit ye put to death the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

condition....if by the Spirit ye put to death the deeds of the body........... led by the Spirit of God,

15

For ye received not the spirit of bondage again unto fear; but ye received the spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit himself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are children of God: 17 and if children, then
heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified with him.

condition.... if so be that we suffer with him,

18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with
the glory which shall be revealed to us-ward. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation waiteth for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to vanity, not of its own will, but by reason of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into
the liberty of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only so, but ourselves also, who have the first-fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for our adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 24 For in hope were we saved: but hope that is seen is not hope: for who hopeth for that which he seeth? 25 But if we hope for that which we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.


26 And in like manner the Spirit also helpeth our infirmity: for we know not how to pray as we ought; but

the Spirit himself maketh intercession for us
with groanings which cannot be uttered; 27 and he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that to them that love God

all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose. 29 For whom
he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: 30 and whom
he foreordained, them he also called: and whom
he called, them he also justified: and whom
he justified, them
he also glorified.


31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us,
who is against us? 32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all,

how shall he not also with him freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth; 34 who is he that condemneth?

It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?
shall tribulation, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 Even as it is written,
For thy sake we are killed all the day long;
We were accounted as sheep for the slaughter.


Nay, in all these things
we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
For I am persuaded, that neither death,
nor life, nor angels, nor principalities,
nor things present, nor things to come,
nor powers, nor height, nor depth,
nor any other creature [including CC heretics],

shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

condition.....through him that loved us

if there is no condition then we are robots.....

 

[mailmandan]

It means that I believe that Christ saved me from death and sin. That I can enter into union with Him and live my life according to His will, so that I might share in His Divine Nature. That I can be healed from the slavery to sin and be molded after His example.

Do you actually believe IN HIM for salvation or in your performance? John 6:40 - For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes IN HIM shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Christ did not save your soul from the Cross. He reversed the fall, so that you, with God can work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

1 Corinthians 1:18 - For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. In Philippians 2:12, notice that Paul said, "work out" not "work for" your salvation. This does not refer to salvation by works but it does refer to the believer's responsibility for active pursuit of obedience in the process of ongoing sanctification. Verse 13 continues, "for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose."

Sola fide is a denial of God's purpose in creating man, then recreating man by His Incarnation/resurrection.

Not at all. Salvation by works is a denial of Christ's finished work of redemption being the all sufficient means of the salvation of believers. Jesus needs no supplements. There is a difference between what man is saved FOR and what man is saved BY.

Here, one is NOT saved, meaning one has NOT attained eternal life.

Those who have been saved through faith are saved NOW, even though they have not yet received their glorified bodies. Eternal life is a present possession for believers (John 5:24). Notice has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

One enters into His Kingdom, takes possession of eternal life, but attaining eternal life is being transformed, becoming perfected into His Likeness.

You don't have to reach entire sanctification in order to take possession of eternal life.

Any man is free to leave as did Adam.

John talks about those who leave and why in 1 John 2:19.

It means to willingly, freely join with Christ in a relationship of love and obedience. That I offer my heart and life back to God as a living sacrifice, wholly acceptable to Him.

To BELIEVE IN HIM means to trust IN HIM as the all sufficient means of our salvation. Not Him + our works or Him + something else, but HIM ALONE. That is the CAUSE and joining with Christ in a relationship of love and obedience is the EFFECT. Offering our life to God as a living sacrifice, wholly acceptable to Him is what we are saved FOR. This is our reasonable service, not salvation based on our performance/works.

To be saved "through faith" means that I live my life in accordance with His will as scripture describes.

John 6:40 - For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. To be saved "through faith" means that we are saved through placing our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Christ alone for salvation. Living our life in accordance with His will as scripture describes AFTER we have been saved through faith is what we are saved FOR (Ephesians 2:10) and not by. You are basing salvation on "your performance" and where do you draw the line in the sand and say that you have SUFFICIENTLY lived according to His will so now Jesus will be able to save you? Where is the assurance in that? (1 John 5:13)

My answer to Him would be: Lord, have mercy upon me a sinner.

"Have mercy upon me a sinner" and "I'm trusting in my performance to save me" is an oxymoron.

Why would my words be any different than any Christian prior to the Reformation? The best answer is Peter's. "I believe that YOU are the Christ, the Son of the Living God. That belief justifies, but does not save a man, or does not automatically attain eternal life.

John 20:31 - But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. Not eternal life?

Unfortunately, the RC added merit through indulgences which Martin Luther rightly objected.

Amen to that!

But the Reformers in throwing out the baby, threw out the water as well. The Reformers developed a whole new paradigm based on three false teachings. Both Luther and Calvin were Augustinians. They adopted the assumptions of Original Sin, Satisfaction theory of atonement and added sola fide. Calvin added predestination and all the attending false tenets, and added penal substitution to Anselm's theory.

Regardless of anyone's theories, Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption alone and not on the merits of our works. Plain and simple.

Luther, to correct what he thought was to much emphasis on tradition, he developed the concept of sola scriptura which was already being practiced by the RC, which is how all the changes were made by the RC. As they say, the rest is history. An ever slippery slope that has led to oblivion and meaninglessness of scripture.

2 Timothy 3:16 - All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. What are you suggesting that we should ADD to scripture?

Today there are a lot of differences between the RC and Orthodoxy. They are separating more as time goes by. The RC also has become relative and is being changed by society when it is supposed to be the other way around.

Yet both churches base salvation on man's performance/deeds/works and not on Christ alone.

 

[mailmandan]

you don't just believe the gospel and get saved..

Romans 1:16 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who BELIEVES.. You were saying?

.you obey what the gospel says and you get saved...faith without works is dead...

We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16). The gospel is a message of grace to be received through faith. The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation. The gospel simply sets forth Christ crucified, buried and risen (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) as the Savior of all who believe (trust) in His finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of their salvation. Genuine faith in Christ is accompanied by works and is not dead, yet we are still saved through faith and not works (Ephesians 2:8,9).

Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: If you knew nothing about God and someone told you to repent...would you know from what they are telling you to repent? But they now tell you about God...will you repent?...that depends on whether you believe or not....

Believe what? Simply believing that "there is one God" (James 2:19) is not the same as believing in the Lord Jesus Christ and being saved (Acts 16:31). Repentance, metanoia, focuses on changing one's mind about his previous concept of God (as in Acts 17:30) and disbelief in God or false beliefs (polytheism and idolatry) about God (see 1 Thessalonians 1:9). On the other hand, faith in Christ, focuses on the new direction that change of mind must ultimately take, namely, trusting in Jesus Christ alone for salvation.

can one who does not believe in God repent toward God who he does not believe in??

Lee Strobel, who wrote the books, "The case for Christ" and "The case for Faith" was a former atheist. He came to repent and believe the gospel. Of course we must believe in the existence of God before we would consider what His word says and ultimately change our mind about our sinful position and need for Christ to save us then trust in Him for salvation.

not everywhere you see the word repent in the scripture it is referring to repentance and remission of sins

The Greek word for "repent" is "metanoia" (noun) and "matanoeo" (verb) you see as defined in the Strongs #3340, 3341: to think differently or afterwards, reconsider. After thought, change of mind. Repentance basically means a "change of mind" and the context must determine what is involved in this change of mind.

baptism is included in your conversion......

Baptism signifies conversion but does not cause it. A symbol is the the reality but a picture of the reality.

you say these things because you believe in faith without works....the water is in... "believes in Him"

No, I believe in Christ and works are the evidence that I believe (fruit of salvation). That is not faith without works. Water is not in "believes in Him." Jesus is not the water. You say these things because you "believe in the water" and not exclusively IN HIM. Your faith is in H20 and not Christ alone.

you think water is not important and only a sign....which is greater as a sign water or gift of the HS....yet Peter commandad that they be baptised....go figure

Water is an important sign. The Holy Spirit is greater than the water. We are commanded to get baptized AFTER we have been saved through faith (Acts 10:43-47). When did the Gentiles receive the Holy Spirit? Before or after water baptism? BEFORE. Water baptism would have no meaning without Christ’s death, burial and resurrection but Christ’s death, burial and resurrection would still have meaning, even if there were no water baptism. In other words, Christ’s death, burial and resurrection is the substance and water baptism is the shadow. Without the substance there would be no shadow.

baptism is in...when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ,

No it's not. Referring back to the event that took place in Acts 10:43-47, Peter says in Acts 11:17 - If therefore God gave them the same gift (Holy Spirit) as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ.. Trusting in Christ as the all sufficient means of their salvation constituted believed on the Lord Jesus Christ BEFORE water baptism. They received the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:45) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47 - "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?". *Your argument just went right out the window.

baptism is in ......faith

No, faith is not baptism and faith precedes baptism and we are saved through faith. It's just that simple. Your faith is in "water and works" and NOT IN CHRIST ALONE.

Faith in Christ comes by hearing the word of God....when one believes the word they then repent and is baptised...

Faith comes by hearing the word of God. When one understands and believes that the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord (Romans 6:23), then they can repent "change their mind" about their sinful position and need for Christ to save them and the new direction of this change of mind is faith in Christ for salvation. Water baptism follows repentance/faith (Acts 10:43:47; 11:17,18).

you want to repent before you have faith in Christ..

You don't just automatically have faith in Christ. You must repent "change your mind" before you can place your faith in Christ for salvation. Your misunderstanding of what repentance and faith are has led to your confusion.

faith comes by hearing the word of God (about Christ)..

Did we have faith in Christ before we heard the word of God? No. Must we change our mind before we place our faith in Christ for salvation? Yes.

.what you are saying is one must repent before he hears the word of God (about Christ)...

That is not what I said at all. One must hear the word of God (about Christ) before he can repent "change his mind" and place his faith in Christ for salvation. You are making this out to be a lot more complicated than it really is.

 

[mailmandan]

Peter didn't have the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ resurrected in him when He denied Jesus. And concerning the Galations, he was at fault for the dissemination, but never was it mentioned as sin.

So being a hypocrite and not being straightforward about the truth of the gospel is not sin? Did it need to be spelled out for you?

So no, I don't think Peter sinned or Paul Sinned or John sinned.

So Peter, Paul and John lived sinless perfect lives 100% of the time? Are you sinless and perfect 100% of the time?

There is NO case ever to slightly resemble that they sinned after receiving the Spirit of Christ in them WHO CAN NOT SIN. We can especially know John didn't sin because he would have been a hypocrite for writing this verse if he was still a sinner;

(1Jn 3:9)
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

I've heard this verse interpreted 3 different ways. 1. Whoever is born of God never sins at all (sinless perfection) "your view". 2. Whoever is born of God doth not commit sin because His seed remains in Him. Whose seed? The seed of God, that life that is given when we are born of God. The new creation in Christ does not sin. 3. No one who is born of God "practices" sin (willful habitual lifestyle, continuous action).

Was John Lying? Sinning??

Was John lying when he said:

1 John 1:7 - If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. 1 John 2:1 - My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. Why would anyone sin "if anyone sins" if we (in of ourselves) are sinless and perfect 100% of the time?

 

[newbirth]

[/I][/COLOR]

Romans 1:16 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who BELIEVES.. You were saying?

he who believes obey..

We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16). The gospel is a message of grace to be received through faith. The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation. The gospel simply sets forth Christ crucified, buried and risen (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) as the Savior of all who believe (trust) in His finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of their salvation. Genuine faith in Christ is accompanied by works and is not dead, yet we are still saved through faith and not works (Ephesians 2:8,9).

faith comes by hearing bro so it is hear, believe ,obey....Christ said to love your brother ...do you believe he said that and then obey...or do you obey then believe Christ said it?
you put obey first in your sentence but the understanding put believe first...

We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel

Believe what? Simply believing that "there is one God" (James 2:19) is not the same as believing in the Lord Jesus Christ and being saved (Acts 16:31). Repentance, metanoia, focuses on changing one's mind about his previous concept of God (as in Acts 17:30) and disbelief in God or false beliefs (polytheism and idolatry) about God (see 1 Thessalonians 1:9). On the other hand, faith in Christ, focuses on the new direction that change of mind must ultimately take, namely, trusting in Jesus Christ alone for salvation.

you trust him and you repent and is baptised in his name..

Lee Strobel, who wrote the books, "The case for Christ" and "The case for Faith" was a former atheist. He came to repent and believe the gospel. Of course we must believe in the existence of God before we would consider what His word says and ultimately change our mind about our sinful position and need for Christ to save us then trust in Him for salvation.

so it is hear,

Of course we must believe in the existence of God

believe

before we would consider what His word says

then repent

ultimately change our mind about our sinful position

The Greek word for "repent" is "metanoia" (noun) and "matanoeo" (verb) you see as defined in the Strongs #3340, 3341: to think differently or afterwards, reconsider. After thought, change of mind. Repentance basically means a "change of mind" and the context must determine what is involved in this change of mind.

Baptism signifies conversion but does not cause it. A symbol is the the reality but a picture of the reality.

1 Peter 3:21
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

No, I believe in Christ and works are the evidence that I believe (fruit of salvation). That is not faith without works. Water is not in "believes in Him." Jesus is not the water. You say these things because you "believe in the water" and not exclusively IN HIM. Your faith is in H20 and not Christ alone.

that is faith without works ...you believe in what you call saving faith without works...then you work...

Water is an important sign. The Holy Spirit is greater than the water. We are commanded to get baptized AFTER we have been saved through faith (Acts 10:43-47). When did the Gentiles receive the Holy Spirit? Before or after water baptism? BEFORE. Water baptism would have no meaning without Christ’s death, burial and resurrection but Christ’s death, burial and resurrection would still have meaning, even if there were no water baptism. In other words, Christ’s death, burial and resurrection is the substance and water baptism is the shadow. Without the substance there would be no shadow.

OK Cornelius but that is not the norm...is it?
this seems to be the norm since I see everyone is included...
[SUP]37 [/SUP]Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
[SUP]38 [/SUP]Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

No it's not. Referring back to the event that took place in Acts 10:43-47, Peter says in Acts 11:17 - If therefore God gave them the same gift (Holy Spirit) as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ.. Trusting in Christ as the all sufficient means of their salvation constituted believed on the Lord Jesus Christ BEFORE water baptism. They received the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:45) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47 - "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?". *Your argument just went right out the window.

where was the act of the day of pentecost repeated...where was the acts with Cornelius repeated or promised to all

No, faith is not baptism and faith precedes baptism and we are saved through faith. It's just that simple. Your faith is in "water and works" and NOT IN CHRIST ALONE.

faith is not baptism but baptism is in faith

Faith comes by hearing the word of God. When one understands and believes that the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord (Romans 6:23), then they can repent "change their mind" about their sinful position and need for Christ to save them and the new direction of this change of mind is faith in Christ for salvation. Water baptism follows repentance/faith (Acts 10:43:47; 11:17,18).

so it is faith then...repentance (which is obedience) ....then baptism (which is also obedience)

You don't just automatically have faith in Christ. You must repent "change your mind" before you can place your faith in Christ for salvation. Your misunderstanding of what repentance and faith are has led to your confusion.

that is because faith comes by hearing...you want to repent before you hear the word....repentance is placing your faith in Christ
there is no middle ground which you seem to be implying...

Did we have faith in Christ before we heard the word of God? No. Must we change our mind before we place our faith in Christ for salvation? Yes.

where did you get the faith to place in Christ? it takes faith to change your mind...there is no middle ground....you change your mind from this to that....

That is not what I said at all. One must hear the word of God (about Christ) before he can repent "change his mind" and place his faith in Christ for salvation. You are making this out to be a lot more complicated than it really is.

you are creating a middle ground bro....when you change your mind you automatically place your faith in Christ...that is why it is called a change....

hearing the word is not changing your mind.....repenting is changing your mind and therefore your actions....repent and be baptised

 

[elf3]

A constant refusal to see truth will only lead to complete blindness. A constant refusal to accept Jesus as our only means to justification will lead only to unrest.

Knowing the peace of God quiets the soul and gives us peace of mind. This cannot be done without accepting the fact that we cannot in any way save ourselves or add anything to the "finished" work of Christ. Our faith in God will be shown through our "good works" because we trust the "finished" work of Christ for our Salvation.