Connecting the Dots . . .

[Stephen63]

I keep hearing that everything is fulfilled. If so what in the world are we still doing here? And I don't want to hear about the 2,000+ year millineum, either. Just want answers, not comments.

I call for the question. Now I'm going to work. Toodles!

 

[Therapon]

I always thought we won people over by the fruit of the Spirit, not carnal arguments. The best way to stop an argument is to ignore the one doing it. When we all argue, no one knows who's to blame, 'cause we all look alike...........Amen, & oh me!

You telling me!

 

[Therapon]

I'm gonna show a little respect to the OP..... After all, it's his thread. I might want the same in the future.

Thank you Sir. I'm not infallible, but I'm careful that my posts are accurate historically and biblically.

 

[Shilo]

I keep hearing that everything is fulfilled. If so what in the world are we still doing here? And I don't want to hear about the 2,000+ year millineum, either. Just want answers, not comments.

Prophecy not fulfilled yetIn Matthew 24:22And except thosedays should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect'ssake those days shall be shortened.
world conditions have not reach this point yet

Zechariah 12:2-3 [2] Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup oftrembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege bothagainst Judah and against Jerusalem.
[3] And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people:all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all thepeople of the earth be gathered together against it.

not all nations are against Israel but close

book of Daniel There is not one power in control of all the earthwith 10 other powers with him.
The Eu and UN are still working on it.

House of Judah( Jews) and house of Israel ( ten tribes not backtogether.
People are working on this too.

No Temple yet in Jerusalem
People are working on this too.

No sure on this one some say it was in 1967
War of psalm 83

No man sitting in God’s Temple claiming he is God

2/3[SUP]rd[/SUP] of people living in Jerusalem not killed yet.

Iraq not totally rebuilt.
But should be done this year.

City of the Harlot destroyed
Not yet done

Abomination of desolation set up
Not yet

Mark of the beast
Not done yet

2[SUP]nd[/SUP] exodus not done yet.

Sacrifices not stopped on alter yet
No alter yet.

Elijah has not come yet.

2 witnesses preaching in Jerusalem.
Not done yet.

 

[crossnote]

I hold to the rule that the prophecies up to the first Coming were literally fulfilled there is no reason to start Gnosticizing the remaining prophecies dealing wih Israel and Christ's 2nd coming. The Jews come back to the Land in unbelief that is why they will be initially deceived (by the Antichrist ) as they wallow in shadows and types but yet God's calling and gifts are irrevocable and thus 'out of Zion shall come a Deliverer'.
The old dispensational writers make moe sense than the new sensational' types, e.g. Chafer and earlier.

 

[doulos]

Connecting The Dots . . .

1. The 10 tribes of Israel were taken captive by Shalmaneser the Assyrian in 725-722 B. C. and dispersed into the Caucasus Mountains region.

Deuteronomy 4:27 “And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the LORD shall lead you.”

Amos 9:8-9 “Behold, the eyes of the Lord GOD are upon the sinful kingdom (Israel), and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth; saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the LORD. For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations (so the ten tribes were dispersed among the Gentiles), like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.” (But none of them will be lost)

2. Just analyzed documents from the former USSR indicates that in the following centuries, a large unidentified body of light-skinned blue-eyed people migrated from South of the Caucuses into Kingdom of Khazaria.

3. During the Islamic expansion of the 8th century, a Moslem army under Abdel Rahman tried to invade Europe through a pass in the Caucasus, but Khazarian armies defeated him. Were it not for the bulwark of Khazaria, Christian Europe could have fallen to Islam from the East.

4. Not wanting religious wars to divide his country, the King of the Khazars ordered three missionaries to appear before his court: a Christian monk, a Jewish priest and a Moslem Imam.

5. After carefully listening to the arguments of each, the King of the Khazars chose Judaism to be the state religion!

6. Later, the people in Khazaria clinging to Judaism emigrated to Europe, where they became known as Ashkenazi Jews.

Leviticus 26:33 “And I will . . . draw out a sword after you.”

7. Then came Hitler and the Holocaust, in which the Nazis in their death camps like Auschwitz-Birkenau, Buchenwald, Treblinka, and in over 1000 ghettos, tried but failed to exterminate the Ashkenazi Jews.

Deuteronomy 4:30-31 “When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice; (For the LORD thy God is a merciful God he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.”

8. After the Holocaust, what was left of the Ashkenazi Jews fled Europe and immigrated to the holy land.

Jeremiah 29:14 “And I will be found of you, saith the LORD: and I will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations, and from all the places whither I have driven you, saith the LORD; and I will bring you again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive.”

9. In 1948 A.D., the new sovereign nation of Israel was established by what were primarily Ashkenazi Jews. Then in 1967, by those same ten “lost” tribes, Jerusalem was finally freed of Gentile control for the first time in 2573 years!

An excelent post! It is a shame that some chose to attack the messenger rather then give your post an unbiased evaluation based on the Scriptural and historical evidence you provide. Isn't it sad to see those who disagree reply in a manner that is both rude and disruptive. I wonder why they can't see that their attacks only discredit them, but if they were to use Scripture and history to prove their point we could have a productive discussion that might actually prove beneficial!

 

[zone]

An excelent post! It is a shame that some chose to attack the messenger rather then give your post an unbiased evaluation based on the Scriptural and historical evidence you provide. Isn't it sad to see those who disagree reply in a manner that is both rude and disruptive. I wonder why they can't see that their attacks only discredit them, but if they were to use Scripture and history to prove their point we could have a productive discussion that might actually prove beneficial!

*cough* *cough*

some have given his theories exhaustive evaluation.
but...some don't want to know why ellis is wrong and has been...fanciful...with his theology and his timeline.

the message is the problem, doulos.


now you can attack this messenger for this message (again).
by all means feel free.

use Scripture and history to prove your point.

 

[doulos]

*cough* *cough*

some have given his theories exhaustive evaluation.

I know, and all of those I have spoken with that took the time to do that exhaustive study from an objective point of view (instead of squeezing it through a dcotrinal filter) have found studying this view results in a better understanding of prophecy and feel that the study has been a blessing. Sadly most try to squeeze it through the doctrine they already hold instead of starting with a clean slate resulting in their inability to comprehend what the view actually says. Have you done an exhaustive study of the view without trying to squeeze it through your doctrinal filter? What did the Hebrew and Jewish scholars you wrote to have to say about the unusual plural form used in the original language that when translated to Englidh has been translated as a singular week instead of plural? What did they say about the Jewish idiom time, times and a half time being 2 1/2 and not 3 1/2? Have you researched the fact that the majority of the church prior to the 16/17th centuries believed a day in prophecy meant a year and that prophecy would unfold over hundreds of years?

but...some don't want to know why ellis is wrong and has been...fanciful...with his theology and his timeline.

the message is the problem, doulos.

I think if (and that is a mighty big if) iin fact t is in error, many would like to see it. In fact if it is in error it would show your love for others by exposing the flaws in the view. Instead your methods only serve to discredit you while giving no reason to discredit the view you object to.

now you can attack this messenger for this message (again).
by all means feel free.

I made no attack on you in this thread. Nor was my post in the other thread intended to be an attack. I realize now that the sarcasm only hardened your heart and as a result you will not understand that it was meant to be constructive criticism given with a dose of your own medicine(sarcasm) in the hope that you would recognize that your methods only hurt your credibility. For that I will apologize I should have seasoned that criticism with grace and salt, not sarcasm. Please forgive, after all I am human and we all fall short.



PS maybe you would be kind enough to explain how one can be an enemy of the gospel yet still be elect?
Rom11:28As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

 

[peterT]

PS maybe you would be kind enough to explain how one can be an enemy of the gospel yet still be elect?
Rom11:28As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

By faith that’s how, from Saul to Paul, Saul of the elect of God was an enemy of the gospel BUT became Paul.



The Jews were the elect by birth, but not all Israel is of Israel, and you have to be born of the spirit and obedient to God to be the elect and of Israel.


John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

 

[Therapon]

By faith that’s how, from Saul to Paul, Saul of the elect of God was an enemy of the gospel BUT became Paul. The Jews were the elect by birth, but not all Israel is of Israel, and you have to be born of the spirit and obedient to God to be the elect and of Israel.

Are you suggesting that Jews of the Christian era are not elect , i.e. saved, unless they become freinds of the gospel? That's not what that verse says in Greek or in English. Look art the tense of the verb, "they are (present tense) enemies of the Gospel, but elect.The the next verse clinches it . . .

Romans 11:29 "For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance," in Greek, ametamelatos, which means irrevocable.

So if the Jews were ever called of God, they still are, even if they do not recognize Jesus as their Messiah. How so? Well look ar Romans 11:8 . . .

"According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear" (the Gospel). And Romans 4:15 is the mechanism by which they can still be saved . . .

"for where no law is, there is no transgression."

So if God sends His chosen people to hell after He sovereignly blinded them to the Gospel, then God is unjust!

 

[zone]

Are you suggesting that Jews of the Christian era are not elect , i.e. saved, unless they become freinds of the gospel? That's not what that verse says in Greek or in English. Look art the tense of the verb, "they are (present tense) enemies of the Gospel, but elect.The the next verse clinches it . . .

Romans 11:29 "For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance," in Greek, ametamelatos, which means irrevocable.

So if the Jews were ever called of God, they still are, even if they do not recognize Jesus as their Messiah. How so? Well look ar Romans 11:8 . . .

"According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear" (the Gospel). And Romans 4:15 is the mechanism by which they can still be saved . . .

"for where no law is, there is no transgression."

So if God sends His chosen people to hell after He sovereignly blinded them to the Gospel, then God is unjust!

and, there we have your real beliefs ellis.

jews don't need Jesus.

 

[zone]

I know, and all of those I have spoken with that took the time to do that exhaustive study from an objective point of view (instead of squeezing it through a dcotrinal filter) have found studying this view results in a better understanding of prophecy and feel that the study has been a blessing. Sadly most try to squeeze it through the doctrine they already hold instead of starting with a clean slate resulting in their inability to comprehend what the view actually says. Have you done an exhaustive study of the view without trying to squeeze it through your doctrinal filter? What did the Hebrew and Jewish scholars you wrote to have to say about the unusual plural form used in the original language that when translated to Englidh has been translated as a singular week instead of plural? What did they say about the Jewish idiom time, times and a half time being 2 1/2 and not 3 1/2? Have you researched the fact that the majority of the church prior to the 16/17th centuries believed a day in prophecy meant a year and that prophecy would unfold over hundreds of years?

I think if (and that is a mighty big if) iin fact t is in error, many would like to see it. In fact if it is in error it would show your love for others by exposing the flaws in the view. Instead your methods only serve to discredit you while giving no reason to discredit the view you object to.

Are you suggesting that Jews of the Christian era are not elect , i.e. saved, unless they become freinds of the gospel? That's not what that verse says in Greek or in English.

Romans 11:29 "
So if the Jews were ever called of God, they still are, even if they do not recognize Jesus as their Messiah. !

Dual-covenant theology is a Christian view of the Old Covenant which holds that Jews may simply keep the Law of Moses, because of the "everlasting covenant" (Genesis 17:13) between Abraham and God expressed in the Hebrew Bible, whereas Gentiles (those not Jews or Jewish proselytes) must convert to Christianity or alternatively accept the Seven Laws of Noah to be assured of a place in the World to Come.

"Everyone else, whether Buddhist or Baha'i, needs to believe in Jesus...but not Jews."
John Hagee, interview with the Houston Chronicle

Arabs = bad terrorists - Dome of the Rock is the Abomination of Desolation
Jews = just plain chosen - support Israel
Christians = we're not sure....Plan B? - support Israel, even though they hate Jesus, they're chosen

 

[peterT]

Are you suggesting that Jews of the Christian era are not elect , i.e. saved, unless they become freinds of the gospel? That's not what that verse says in Greek or in English. Look art the tense of the verb, "they are (present tense) enemies of the Gospel, but elect.The the next verse clinches it . . .

Romans 11:29 "For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance," in Greek, ametamelatos, which means irrevocable.

So if the Jews were ever called of God, they still are, even if they do not recognize Jesus as their Messiah. How so? Well look ar Romans 11:8 . . .

"According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear" (the Gospel). And Romans 4:15 is the mechanism by which they can still be saved . . .

"for where no law is, there is no transgression."

So if God sends His chosen people to hell after He sovereignly blinded them to the Gospel, then God is unjust!

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

John 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

Hebrews 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

The gifts and calling of God are without repentance, But they have to obey and harken unto the voice of the lord.

1 John 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.


It doesn’t say anything about the Jews being saved without Jesus.


Who got to the Promised Land? The children of obedience that hearkened to the voice of the lord, the rest of the disobedient all over the age of 20 years old died in the wilderness, died by the hand of the lord, by sword by flame and by pestilence.


And God has not only given the Jews the spirit of slumber but most of Christianity


Show me a scripture were it says the Jews are saved without repentance and obedience to the word of the lord and hearkening to the voice of the lord and his prophets.


John 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?


He has not cast them away, the door is still open and the door is Jesus.


John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.


Just as the children of Israel came out of Egypt and died in the wilderness for NOT hearkening to the voice of the lord and his prophet Moses, the same principle still applies today, obedience to the voice of the lord and his son Jesus.

 

[Therapon]

and, there we have your real beliefs ellis.Jews don't need Jesus.

Jesus is a Lamb who was, in the eyes of God the Father, "slain before the foundation of the earth," Rev 13:8 so every person who has ever been, or ever will be born, throughout all time, needs the shed blood of Jesus. However, if you don't like the verses I quoted because they disagree with your doctrine, then please by all means, rip them out of your Bible. They are staying in mine.

 

[zone]

Jesus is a Lamb who was, in the eyes of God the Father, "slain before the foundation of the earth," Rev 13:8 so every person who has ever been, or ever will be born, throughout all time, needs the shed blood of Jesus. However, if you don't like the verses I quoted because they disagree with your doctrine, then please by all means, rip them out of your Bible. They are staying in mine.

so you re not into Dual Covenant theology....
you're a universalist?

 

[peterT]

Jesus is a Lamb who was, in the eyes of God the Father, "slain before the foundation of the earth," Rev 13:8 so every person who has ever been, or ever will be born, throughout all time, needs the shed blood of Jesus. However, if you don't like the verses I quoted because they disagree with your doctrine, then please by all means, rip them out of your Bible. They are staying in mine.

rip them out of your Bible? You’re talking a lot of rubbish

and what verses did you quote about the Jews being saved??

Show me verses showing the Jews are saved without Jesus

 

[Therapon]

Show me a scripture were it says the Jews are saved without repentance and obedience to the word of the lord and hearkening to the voice of the lord and his prophets.

Well, explain to me how Jews can come to the Jesus if God the Father keeps them blinded to the Gospel? just as Romans 11:8 states. Romans 11:11 goes on to say they are not lost . . .

"I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy."

So the Jews were blinded for the sake of the Gentile church, and then Romans 11:25 . . .

"For I would not, brethren, that ye (Gentile believers) should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."

Which is exactly what has happened to Gentile believers. We are sitting out here saying, "We're going to heaven because we know somthing that you sovereignly blinded Jews don't. You Jews are going to hell because you don't believe in the Messiah that God has prevented you from recognizing.

Now brother, that is sick theology, totally foreign to the nature of God.

 

[zone]

Well, explain to me how Jews can come to the Jesus if God the Father keeps them blinded to the Gospel? just as Romans 11:8 states. Romans 11:11 goes on to say they are not lost . . .

"I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy."

So the Jews were blinded for the sake of the Gentile church, and then Romans 11:25 . . .

"For I would not, brethren, that ye (Gentile believers) should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."

Which is exactly what has happened to Gentile believers. We are sitting out here saying, "We're going to heaven because we know somthing that you sovereignly blinded Jews don't. You Jews are going to hell because you don't believe in the Messiah that God has prevented you from recognizing.

Now brother, that is sick theology, totally foreign to the nature of God.

nah. that's wicked dispensational theology.
the jews have had the Gospel available to them all along.
if they turn to Christ the veil is remo.....oh....wait....apparently they can't be grafted back in if they continue not in unbelief, because they're blinded by God into our future.

apparently that veil will not be removed because they can't turn to Christ.

i wonder who i believe.

ellis and dispy heresy?
or scripture.

 

[Therapon]

so you re not into Dual Covenant theology.... you're a universalist?

I am not into any of man's suppositional theologies, but into the word of God. As to universalism, Revelation 21:8 states . . .

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

That hardly sounds like universalism to me.

 

[zone]

I am not into any of man's suppositional theologies, but into the word of God. As to universalism, Revelation 21:8 states . . .

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

That hardly sounds like universalism to me.

universalism for every jew who ever lived because they were circumcised?
but ever'body else needs the Lord.

get your story straight ellis.