Continuationism or Cessationism
- Thread starter Desdichado
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Ooookay. As long as their sincerity and status as believers isn't being called into question, that's all I'm really asking at the moment.
Most other things, I'm approaching with an open mind for purposes of getting the most out of discussion in this thread.
Most other things, I'm approaching with an open mind for purposes of getting the most out of discussion in this thread.
A fair criticism of Cessationists so far is that they've brought few if any prooftexts to the table.
Ooookay guys, I know you have them hiding somewhere. Sling'em at me.
Normally I detest the prooftext game, but it'd be helpful to see key passages from both sides.
Notuptome was most helpful in that regard. Thanks, buddy.
Ooookay guys, I know you have them hiding somewhere. Sling'em at me.
Normally I detest the prooftext game, but it'd be helpful to see key passages from both sides.
Notuptome was most helpful in that regard. Thanks, buddy.
Rereading the thread, 1 Corinthians seems to be the best place to start for a serious study on the matter.
I'll do my due diligence today. Thank you!
I'll do my due diligence today. Thank you!
1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
How to interpret this 1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
I say if you keep it simple and in context than Paul is saying, at the second coming everything that is done imperfectly will be done away
because this is written after the first coming i don't think its about the first coming.
I'm new to the concepts so i'll just say it how I understand it.
God can talk through a donkey and lead animals into an ark or control the weather, there isn't anything that God can't do. There were times when it seemed like God wasn't around in history (no signs or prophets) and there were times when God spoke directly to the people.
Mat 16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.
In Gods time the prophets came and left, The true prophets were often persecuted.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
I'll focus on faith, hope and Love and when it comes to prophets, signs and miracles i'll test them all to the scriptures to know if they are from God.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
How to interpret this 1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
I say if you keep it simple and in context than Paul is saying, at the second coming everything that is done imperfectly will be done away
because this is written after the first coming i don't think its about the first coming.
I'm new to the concepts so i'll just say it how I understand it.
God can talk through a donkey and lead animals into an ark or control the weather, there isn't anything that God can't do. There were times when it seemed like God wasn't around in history (no signs or prophets) and there were times when God spoke directly to the people.
Mat 16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.
In Gods time the prophets came and left, The true prophets were often persecuted.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
I'll focus on faith, hope and Love and when it comes to prophets, signs and miracles i'll test them all to the scriptures to know if they are from God.
P
popeye
Guest
The Holy Spirit must have put the word "knowledge" in there knowing some would park on salvation and not have the slightest interest in Mat 18:18, nor the Elisha component. ( greater works than these shall you do")
The that which is perfect is not the second coming of Christ. If that were the case the text would say that which is perfect is come again. The word of God is perfect the canon of the NT was not perfect meaning complete at the time Paul was writing to the Corinthians.
A study of Joel 2 which Peter cited at Pentecost would demonstrate that the gifts present at the tribulation which is just prior to the return of Christ are gifts given to Israel specifically to prepare them for the return of Christ.
Not all of the gifts cited in 1 Cor have ended only three. That is not limiting God only accepting His determinate will to build the church according to the word of God and not by dazzling demonstrations of the supernatural. The church is built on the Living Word of God who is Christ. The Holy Spirit's ministry is not one of preeminence but of submission to the will of the Father.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
The default understanding should be continuationism, believing that the gifts still exist unless clearly proven otherwise.
peter said Pentecost WAS THAT spoken by joel.
it happened for Israel exactly as prophesied.
done.
G
GODisLOVE7
Guest
I really enjoy this thread...
We are told to look at one's fruit. So if someone had a crazy God experience, their fruit appears to be good and match (apple from an apple tree, orange from an orange tree), are proclaiming the Gospel, pointing people to the Bible and have a humble heart... Well, are we going to criticise them because they didn't have their eyes opened in the same old traditional way?
As you said, God can reach anyone, anywhere, any time. There is no magic formula. I've met Christians who have been believers all their lives and the outside is all shiny but after getting to know them the inside is all filled with yucky stuff and their actions don't align with what the Bible teaches. Not that there needs to be perfection... Certainly we stumble and fall down longer than we would like to. I've taken way too many faceplants.
For me when I try and put God and His ways into a box (and think that I've got it figured out) is the exact moment God takes that box, rips it to shreads, throws it in my face and tells me to go back to the Bible and pray for more wisdom.
From my understanding Cessationists primarily use one Scripture for their theology.
1 Co 13:18 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.
But, the driving point of Paul's writings 1 Co 12-14 is not to forbid giftings, but to explain the importance of pursuing love first.
We see this in his summarized estimation:
1 Co 14:1 Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.
The other issue is that Cessationists use two meanings for tongues. On one end they say tongues (unknown tongues) will cease. And then on the other hand they say Biblical tongues was never unknown tongues.
Completely ignoring this Scripture:
1 Co 14:2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit.
Why do they ignore this Scripture? From my understanding, their POV is that it's simply "sarcasm".
However Paul is clear when he says they utter mysteries by the Spirit. That he's expressly talking about the function and origin of their gifted speech. The idea that Paul is simply using sarcasm fails another test as well because Paul goes on to explain the function of speaking in tongues with an illustration.
1 Co 14:23Therefore if the whole church assembles together and all speak in tongues, and ungifted men or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad?
And today just as Paul illustrated, people think those who speak in tongues are crazy.
C.
1 Co 13:18 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.
But, the driving point of Paul's writings 1 Co 12-14 is not to forbid giftings, but to explain the importance of pursuing love first.
We see this in his summarized estimation:
1 Co 14:1 Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.
The other issue is that Cessationists use two meanings for tongues. On one end they say tongues (unknown tongues) will cease. And then on the other hand they say Biblical tongues was never unknown tongues.
Completely ignoring this Scripture:
1 Co 14:2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit.
Why do they ignore this Scripture? From my understanding, their POV is that it's simply "sarcasm".
However Paul is clear when he says they utter mysteries by the Spirit. That he's expressly talking about the function and origin of their gifted speech. The idea that Paul is simply using sarcasm fails another test as well because Paul goes on to explain the function of speaking in tongues with an illustration.
1 Co 14:23Therefore if the whole church assembles together and all speak in tongues, and ungifted men or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad?
And today just as Paul illustrated, people think those who speak in tongues are crazy.
C.
Last edited:
I know what you mean GodisLove7! There was a period where i was instructed to pray for situations knowing He would fulfill
it, and thinking how He would do it, only to see it fulfilled in a way I would never have imagined.
Book only people seem to know "about" G-d and seem less successful in experiencing G-d.
Revelation speaks of how some will hear, "get out of my presence, I never KNEW you!" Very clear it is about relationship, and of course we get there by hearing the Word but we are not to stop and rest at salvation.
best wishes
it, and thinking how He would do it, only to see it fulfilled in a way I would never have imagined.
Book only people seem to know "about" G-d and seem less successful in experiencing G-d.
Revelation speaks of how some will hear, "get out of my presence, I never KNEW you!" Very clear it is about relationship, and of course we get there by hearing the Word but we are not to stop and rest at salvation.
best wishes
Yes. But Paul was an Apostle. Ppl lined up just to have Peter's shadow come upon them. Acts is a book of transition where things that happened then don't now.
I am not entirely settled on this. In context, those who were healed also had their sins forgiven. None in today's churches have this ability to forgive sins.
Cessationists have no foundation for their belief that tongues have ceased by attributing them as a sign to Israel and unbelieving Jews. We have scripture that plainly contradicts the gift of tongues as only being for that use. It may have served that use but that was only one purpose of a gift that serves many.
Throughout Corinthians we learn about the gift of tongues and that with them one may pray in tongues, minister in tongues, worship/sing in tongues and even edify others with the gift (with interpretation). We learn that tongues are not spoken to men but to God and no man understands him because he speaks mysteries in the spirit.
This means that the tongues are not for the understanding, necessarily, of those listening until such tongues are interpreted (with a supernatural gift of interpretation). We are not talking about a person speaking Chinese and then a Chinese speaker is present to interpret. We are speaking of a believer, possibly, speaking Chinese and another non-Chinese speaking person interpreting the language for all to hear. This is a gift of the Spirit, not some naturalistic understanding of spiritual gifts to disavow their... miraculous authenticity.
Thats another issue with Cessationism. Attempting to naturalize spiritual gifts in such a way as to ignore their supernatural occurrence. Attempting to take the super out of supernatural. Putting into the text what is not there. Cessation-ism itself is a doctrine that cannot even be defended efficiently. It is based upon one verse that if interpreted in their way would contradict so very much of the Bible. For what reason would the Holy Spirit go into such depth about the gifts and their operation through the Apostle Paul if such gifts ceased? What a waste of pages and people's time. No?
Throughout Corinthians we learn about the gift of tongues and that with them one may pray in tongues, minister in tongues, worship/sing in tongues and even edify others with the gift (with interpretation). We learn that tongues are not spoken to men but to God and no man understands him because he speaks mysteries in the spirit.
This means that the tongues are not for the understanding, necessarily, of those listening until such tongues are interpreted (with a supernatural gift of interpretation). We are not talking about a person speaking Chinese and then a Chinese speaker is present to interpret. We are speaking of a believer, possibly, speaking Chinese and another non-Chinese speaking person interpreting the language for all to hear. This is a gift of the Spirit, not some naturalistic understanding of spiritual gifts to disavow their... miraculous authenticity.
Thats another issue with Cessationism. Attempting to naturalize spiritual gifts in such a way as to ignore their supernatural occurrence. Attempting to take the super out of supernatural. Putting into the text what is not there. Cessation-ism itself is a doctrine that cannot even be defended efficiently. It is based upon one verse that if interpreted in their way would contradict so very much of the Bible. For what reason would the Holy Spirit go into such depth about the gifts and their operation through the Apostle Paul if such gifts ceased? What a waste of pages and people's time. No?
"The Church" didn't forgive sins then either, Christ forgives sins.
Christ healed through the power of the Holy Spirit, which He received through John the Baptist, the same which was imparted at Pentecost. Recall Him saying "I only do what I see the Father do"? Also recall how scripture tells "He could do no great works because of their unbelief"?
No one has a special healing power aside from the working of the Holy Spirit in a situation.
Granted, the dark side can work some "signs and lying wonders" and will in the future according to scripture
and we are to develop discernment to discern these things.
We still have churches that want people to believe salvation and relationship
is through the church and/or some people in the church, priest, pastor or whatever
can forgive sin. I don't think that is true.
Christ healed through the power of the Holy Spirit, which He received through John the Baptist, the same which was imparted at Pentecost. Recall Him saying "I only do what I see the Father do"? Also recall how scripture tells "He could do no great works because of their unbelief"?
No one has a special healing power aside from the working of the Holy Spirit in a situation.
Granted, the dark side can work some "signs and lying wonders" and will in the future according to scripture
and we are to develop discernment to discern these things.
We still have churches that want people to believe salvation and relationship
is through the church and/or some people in the church, priest, pastor or whatever
can forgive sin. I don't think that is true.
Prooftests? How about a quarter to a third of the Gospels, depending on which one, every account of a a miracle in Acts, I Corinthians 12 through 14, and every reference to a vision or gift of the Spirit in the epistles and the book of Revelation.
I could also point out the fact that according to Joel, as seen in Acts 2, the last days is characterized by the outpouring of the Spirit, prophecy, dreams, visions, etc.
Paul said to imitate him as he imitated Christ. Paul was a miracle worker. Jesus was a miracle worker. Signs and wonders played a role in how they evangelized.
I Corinthians 12 says that the Spirit gives certain gifts to members in the body of Christ, including gifts such as the word of wisdom, the word of knowledge, prophecy, gifts of healing, the working of miracles, Cessationists say he does not. Some cessationists pick a few from the list and say the verses are not true anymore for this day and age.
Let's not forget there are commands of scripture for the church that cessationism would have people not obey. Paul says to earnestly desire spiritual gifts, especially that ye may prophesy. Are cessationists in favor of desiring to receive words of knowledge, speak in tongues and interpret, or prophesy?
When it comes to prophesying, there are cessationists who just redefine the word to mean something different than it meant in the first century, who would say covet to prophesy, but with a different definition of the word.
The Bible also commands
Quench not the Spirit. Despise not prophesyings. Prove all things. Hold fast to that which is good.
How can you do that if you are a cessationist? Cessationism has led many to reject prophecies out of hand, which is despising prophesyings.
Cessationism would have us believe that God is not willing to work in the church the way the scriptures demonstrate that God works in the church.
So the default understanding should be continuationism.
Paul said to imitate him as he imitated Christ.
Let's look at a pattern in scripture. Peter said the Spirit would be poured out on all flesh. First, in Acts, the apostles worked miracles.
Then we see there were other people gifted in the church as prophets. The seven were appointed to feed widows. Then, two of them started evangelizing, one after the other, and doing signs and wonders. By the time we get to I Corinthians, regular members of the body of Christ, even those from pagan backgrounds, were able to operate in gifts like prophesying, gifts of healing, the working of miracles, and various other gifts as the Spirit wills.
I don't find this idea that Acts is a book of transitions and so we should not do like the apostles anywhere in the Bible. Why bring extra-biblical theories into the mix when interpreting scripture?
I take it to imply that they confessed their sins, based on the next verses to confess sins to one another and pray for one another that they may be healed. That seems to be implied, IMO, that James had the general way sins are forgiven in view.
Peter quotes Joel describing the 'last days.' Do you have evidence that the characteristics of the last days have changed, or that we are no longer in the last days?
Let's say that there are people out there who speak pure gibberish. I suppose some alleged tongues could fall into that category. There was a poster arguing that pagans spoke gibberish on another thread, so there was gibberish back then. There were likely false prophets. There was 'that woman Jezebel' in the first century.
Using the same reasoning, one could argue that there were no genuine spiritual gifts in the first century. But there were.
Jesus said He was sending prophets, and He warned against false prophets who would arise and deceive many. Jesus said regarding false prophets 'Ye shall know them by their fruits....' He did NOT say 'ye shall know them by the fact that they prophesy more than 60 years from now.'
Biblically, we should expect true prophets and false prophets.
There are various commands the apostle Paul left us with in regard to prophesying, such as
Earnestly desire spiritual gifts, especially that you m...
Covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues...
Quench not the Spirit. Despise not prophesyings.
Last edited: