Convince me there is non-alcoholic wine in the Bible/communion
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Why would anyone dilute unfermented "wine"? That's silly. Do you think they found the grape juice a bit strong for their liking? Do you think there wasn't enough so they mixed it to make it "go farther"?
You can believe whatever you like, but inventing beliefs about what Scripture says is not believing Scripture.
You can believe whatever you like, but inventing beliefs about what Scripture says is not believing Scripture.
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He shed His blood dying
our life and joy and peace in Christ comes only through death - in Him we have died, because He died - and this death produced a new life, because He also rose.
i would argue that the strongest symbolic position is actual wine, not mere fresh grape squeezings falsely called wine.
mere welche's® is a denial of the cross.
our life and joy and peace in Christ comes only through death - in Him we have died, because He died - and this death produced a new life, because He also rose.
i would argue that the strongest symbolic position is actual wine, not mere fresh grape squeezings falsely called wine.
mere welche's® is a denial of the cross.
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Isaiah 65:8
Thus says the LORD:
"As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one says,
'Do not destroy it, for a blessing is in it,'
so will I do for My servants' sake, that I may not destroy them all."
grapes ferment into wine naturally on the vine, with no human intervention whatsoever. yeast abounds on earth, we make wine here at home from blueberries adding nothing but honey. God has already covered the berries with yeast; nothing is lacking.-
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like the yeast that by their death add the alcohol to the wine which gladdens the heart and is able to ease pain, unless Christ had died, we would not have the joy of salvation in Him.
Luke 9:22
The Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day.
i really don't see how simple fresh squeezed berries can fulfill the typology -
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Like many words in the Bible, they can have different meanings depending on the context. “New wine” can refer to either fresh unfermented grape juice like the “new wine” found in the cluster of the grape (Isaiah 65:8), or it can refer to newly fermented wine that is diluted with water like in Hosea 4:11 (which is mildly intoxicating). Context determines the meaning.
As for my mention 1 Corinthians 11:21 before: Well, it has been a while since I did this study. I was wrong on my initial response here on this verse. My old position on this verse is correct. Based on my previous study, the word “drunken” here is not referring to intoxication like we would understand this word today in this particular context. It is in reference to being fully satiated by a particular beverage.
First, the context demands that Paul is referring to “drunken” (μεθύω) (methyō) as not referring to intoxication because the following verse, we read how Paul says, “What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in?” (1 Corinthians 11:22). Obviously Paul is not encouraging them to get intoxicated in their homes instead.
Second, we see in Old English literature that “drunken” does not always mean intoxicated. For example, Richard Baxter, The Reformed Pastor (1656) said, "Let us not be as children that are drunken with milk, who know not the worth of it because they have had it in abundance."
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As for my mention 1 Corinthians 11:21 before: Well, it has been a while since I did this study. I was wrong on my initial response here on this verse. My old position on this verse is correct. Based on my previous study, the word “drunken” here is not referring to intoxication like we would understand this word today in this particular context. It is in reference to being fully satiated by a particular beverage.
First, the context demands that Paul is referring to “drunken” (μεθύω) (methyō) as not referring to intoxication because the following verse, we read how Paul says, “What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in?” (1 Corinthians 11:22). Obviously Paul is not encouraging them to get intoxicated in their homes instead.
Second, we see in Old English literature that “drunken” does not always mean intoxicated. For example, Richard Baxter, The Reformed Pastor (1656) said, "Let us not be as children that are drunken with milk, who know not the worth of it because they have had it in abundance."
…
As for my mention 1 Corinthians 11:21 before: Well, it has been a while since I did this study. I was wrong on my initial response here on this verse. My old position on this verse is correct. Based on my previous study, the word “drunken” here is not referring to intoxication like we would understand this word today in this particular context. It is in reference to being fully satiated by a particular beverage.
First, the context demands that Paul is referring to “drunken” (μεθύω) (methyō) as not referring to intoxication because the following verse, we read how Paul says, “What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in?” (1 Corinthians 11:22). Obviously Paul is not encouraging them to get intoxicated in their homes instead.
Second, we see in Old English literature that “drunken” does not always mean intoxicated. For example, Richard Baxter, The Reformed Pastor (1656) said, "Let us not be as children that are drunken with milk, who know not the worth of it because they have had it in abundance."
….
First, the context demands that Paul is referring to “drunken” (μεθύω) (methyō) as not referring to intoxication because the following verse, we read how Paul says, “What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in?” (1 Corinthians 11:22). Obviously Paul is not encouraging them to get intoxicated in their homes instead.
Second, we see in Old English literature that “drunken” does not always mean intoxicated. For example, Richard Baxter, The Reformed Pastor (1656) said, "Let us not be as children that are drunken with milk, who know not the worth of it because they have had it in abundance."
….
I used to be more detached on the matter. I did not really have a reason to care. The world of politics used to be pretty boring. While I am not associated with any particular party, I do care for the state of our nation and want the best for it. I did not even vote. Also, I do realize both parties are of this world, but I don’t want to see our country spiral downwards. If that is God’s will, so be it, but I do care about the place I live. So I do agree with certain values the Right has. Many values of the Left today is pure insanity. The blue wall is such a polar opposite representing much that is evil.
Another problem with the Left is that they lack common sense and they are not truth seekers who will follow the facts wherever that may lead. So some of them get emotional to a point that it shows bad fruit. While Anti-Textual Absolutists are unlike the Dems overall, in these three areas, they share a commonality. Granted, I am not saying all KJV advocates are saints. There are some that are heretical. But the point is that is that I see some parallels between these two groups.
I say this not to wound anyone here. I love all here in Christ Jesus. I am just calling it like I see it from my perspective.
May God bless you.
Side Note:
I do understand we are not to love the world and neither the things in this world. We should seek after Christ and His righteousness. The true savior is Jesus Christ and no leader of any country. But it would be nice to be in an environment where are efforts for the gospel will be less hindered.
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Another problem with the Left is that they lack common sense and they are not truth seekers who will follow the facts wherever that may lead. So some of them get emotional to a point that it shows bad fruit. While Anti-Textual Absolutists are unlike the Dems overall, in these three areas, they share a commonality. Granted, I am not saying all KJV advocates are saints. There are some that are heretical. But the point is that is that I see some parallels between these two groups.
I say this not to wound anyone here. I love all here in Christ Jesus. I am just calling it like I see it from my perspective.
May God bless you.
Side Note:
I do understand we are not to love the world and neither the things in this world. We should seek after Christ and His righteousness. The true savior is Jesus Christ and no leader of any country. But it would be nice to be in an environment where are efforts for the gospel will be less hindered.
….
The English words "new wine" in the KJV can refer to either fresh grape juice or wine that is in the process of fermenting, depending on the context. When this wine was consumed for social gatherings, it would be diluted with water. In the case of Matthew 9:17, "new wine" refers to wine that will eventually fully ferment into strong, intoxicating wine. However, this fermented wine served as a means of storage and could be easily transported, but it was typically not consumed undiluted at social gatherings or feasts unless a person intended to commit the sin of drunkenness. When this fermented wine was consumed for social gatherings, it would be diluted with water so that it was only mildly intoxicating. It could also be used to ease pain for those with severe wounds before death and to sanitize water. Matthew 9:17 addresses the storage of this strong wine, which would, in most cases, be diluted for consumption.
In Matthew 9:17 (KJV), Jesus says, "Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved." Here, He recommends that new wine be placed in new bottles to allow for safe fermentation. This new wine is unfermented and has not yet undergone the process that produces strong wine. Fermentation is what stretches an old bottle to its maximum capacity during the process; an additional round of fermentation would burst an already-stretched wineskin. Therefore, new, unfermented wine needs to go into new wineskins that have not yet been stretched.
The miracle that Jesus performed at the wedding feast, turning water into wine, was remarkable because His wine was unfermented, pure grape juice, without any trace of fermentation. This pure wine symbolizes the purity of His blood, which has the power to cleanse us from sin. In contrast to fermented wine, which symbolizes a process of decay, Jesus’s unfermented wine at the wedding signifies a new purity and life, representing His spotless sacrifice.
However, in the case of the parable of the wineskins, the focus is on the shift in mindset required of the Jewish people, from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant. Just as new wine requires fresh wineskins, Jesus’s teaching required a new mindset, open to the New Covenant and the salvation it brings, fulfilling and surpassing the Old Covenant.
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In Matthew 9:17 (KJV), Jesus says, "Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved." Here, He recommends that new wine be placed in new bottles to allow for safe fermentation. This new wine is unfermented and has not yet undergone the process that produces strong wine. Fermentation is what stretches an old bottle to its maximum capacity during the process; an additional round of fermentation would burst an already-stretched wineskin. Therefore, new, unfermented wine needs to go into new wineskins that have not yet been stretched.
The miracle that Jesus performed at the wedding feast, turning water into wine, was remarkable because His wine was unfermented, pure grape juice, without any trace of fermentation. This pure wine symbolizes the purity of His blood, which has the power to cleanse us from sin. In contrast to fermented wine, which symbolizes a process of decay, Jesus’s unfermented wine at the wedding signifies a new purity and life, representing His spotless sacrifice.
However, in the case of the parable of the wineskins, the focus is on the shift in mindset required of the Jewish people, from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant. Just as new wine requires fresh wineskins, Jesus’s teaching required a new mindset, open to the New Covenant and the salvation it brings, fulfilling and surpassing the Old Covenant.
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I believe the Israelite was allowed to drink fermented wine diluted with water. However, those under the New Covenant, this is more tricky. If a person's conscience does not see alcohol as a poison (Which it is), they can drink the Israelite form of wine that is diluted with water. Yet, on the other hand, I believe the Lord's supper was fresh grape juice. The fruit of the vine is fresh grape juice and not a decaying fruit. So, this is one of those topics where a believer has to grow and mature on such a subject. I believe drinking strong intoxicating beverages is sinful. It was condemned even by the Israelites when used in social gatherings or normal every day consumption.
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Scripture is quite clear in refuting your baseless belief:
Deuteronomy 14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the Lord thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,
That is God's instruction to the Israelites. "Wine or... strong drink" does not mean weak, diluted wine. God endorsed the consumption of alcohol, even strong alcoholic beverages.
It's really quite foolish to believe something is "sinful" when it is obviously endorsed in Scripture.
Deuteronomy 14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the Lord thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,
That is God's instruction to the Israelites. "Wine or... strong drink" does not mean weak, diluted wine. God endorsed the consumption of alcohol, even strong alcoholic beverages.
It's really quite foolish to believe something is "sinful" when it is obviously endorsed in Scripture.