Cop shootings - how much is too much?

[Ellsworth1943]

If anyone points a gun at me , my wife, or an innocent bystander, one of us is going to die.

 

[stand2]

And why is that?

Never been afraid ?? Wow !! Ever heard of fight or flight ? Welll......When you're dodging bullets and you don't run away because you have sworn to protect the innocent, that's overcoming fear.........some say it's crazy......I say it's courage. Sixteen years was all I could handle. My hat's off to Tommy.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

A couple of us hijacked another thread and were asked to take it elsewhere. So in respect for that here we are.

The discussion was if there were 9 cops surrounding a single semi-armed robber (he had a bb gun), is it acceptable for all 9 to empty their clips into him (aka fill him full of lead)?

depends on the context...

if the cops had no idea it was a bb gun and some criminal with a gun in hand was waving it around


ya

they should defend themself.....and everyone else around


what if it was a deadly weapon?

would you rather a truely armed robber be ready to shoot you with a real gun and a cop waste time trying to see if it was a realistic bb gun before defending the civilian (you)

only to find out after you were dead it was a real gun?

 

[preacher4truth]

If anyone points a gun at me , my wife, or an innocent bystander, one of us is going to die.

.................


[video=youtube;AFa1-kciCb4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFa1-kciCb4[/video]

 

[zeroturbulence]

BB guns look just like real guns. They don't even have red tips like airsoft guns do. A cop has to assume its real or it might be the last mistake that he or she will ever make...

...and you can't just shoot to injure. An injured assailant might still be able to shoot at you.

 

[Desdichado]

All you needed to do was re-post the guy's avatar. His hat screams "Castle Doctrine"

.................


[video=youtube;AFa1-kciCb4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFa1-kciCb4[/video]

 

[Tommy379]

BB guns look just like real guns. They don't even have red tips like airsoft guns do. A cop has to assume its real or it might be the last mistake that he or she will ever make...

...and you can't just shoot to injure. An injured assailant might still be able to shoot at you.

It has nothing to do with shooting to kill, or shooting to injure.

You aim at the largest part of the assailants body you can see..... cause, you know....... aim small, miss small.

 

[jsr1221]

Make no mistake, this thread ain't going to change anything. The Bible tells us love will grow cold, brother will betray brother, and inequality will abound. Cops will continue to swiss cheese people, whether they are career criminals or Joe nobody just trying to feed his family, and then feign surprise when the public calls them out on it instead of learning something from the experience. That's the difference between fire and law enforcement. We learn from our experiences.

Such as, when faced with a trash fire, you don't unload the whole 500 gallon water tank on it. It's an unnecessary waste. We learn how to knock it down with only 10. (And I can't wait to see how many people miss THIS point).

And again, any cop who lets fear overrule reason does. not. deserve. to be a cop. He's a danger to himself, his buddies, and the public. Is that why you left, Tommy? (Oh that's right I won't see his answer. Not interested anyway. Probably all vitriol).

The whole point of this was missed, probably my fault (even tho I did introduce the idea only to have it ignored) ... Are we all not children of God? Do we all not deserve to be spiritually swiss cheesed by Him? Yet how many bullets would Jesus fire? Not a one ... He'd turn the gun on Himself to save us.

It's just a shame that so many so called "Christians" don't share His love for mankind.

Even Jesus stood up when it was time to take action. The phrase "turn the other cheek" doesn't mean letting a criminal shoot you. Or in this kid's case, trying to be cool to his buddies by pointing a gun at police officers (BB gun or no BB gun). I've done stupid things, but egging police on certainly isn't one of them. The Bible also instructs us to respect the laws in place. Like politics, people can twist Scripture so that it fits their own agenda. You should be careful about that.

 

[Susanna]

It has nothing to do with shooting to kill, or shooting to injure.

You aim at the largest part of the assailants body you can see..... cause, you know....... aim small, miss small.

Yup...keep it simple...and then it's another day down.

 

[Tommy379]

Yup...keep it simple...and then it's another day down.

True dat.

Where you been?

 

[Susanna]

Interesting responses. A couple thoughts back,

And for those just joining us, this is after 35 years working in the streets alongside my brothers in blue and having them as friends and in family. And as one who has looked down the barrel of a gun and ducked flying bullets in the street.

While the discussion has focused on this event, I was hoping to turn it into a more general issue.

I don't care if it's a bb gun or not, if you point something at a police officer he has the right to shoot you, if for no other reason than you're obviously too stupid to live. You can't give a guy a millisecond to respond to a death threat and then armchair quarterback his response. In this particular case, the articles do not say if he pointed it at them or not.

In a case where there is time,

Let me say that again,

In a case where there is time, such as this 50 minute standoff, there is no reason the supervisor in charge couldn't poll his officers and determine which 3 out of the nine have the cleanest shots and designate them as the shooters. Them and whoever he's pointing his gun at. In a caveat to Willie, I also offered that if he doesn't go down after 30 to 40 hits (4 officers with 10 round magazines), everyone else gets to unload.

This particular guy was obviously a scumbag that the cops were familiar with. His history alone means they have to up their game. But, he was a scumbag that God loved. Suppose this was a guy who was only trying to pay his rent and feed his family. Would he deserve to be annihilated? God tells us to love all of humanity, there but for Him go we all right? Those who want to annihilate him instead of subduing him aren't getting that point.

Determine and designate a limited number of shooters???

Surely you are joking, right???

No, everyone must be determined and designated...always.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Make no mistake, this thread ain't going to change anything. The Bible tells us love will grow cold, brother will betray brother, and inequality will abound. Cops will continue to swiss cheese people, whether they are career criminals or Joe nobody just trying to feed his family, and then feign surprise when the public calls them out on it instead of learning something from the experience. That's the difference between fire and law enforcement. We learn from our experiences.

Such as, when faced with a trash fire, you don't unload the whole 500 gallon water tank on it. It's an unnecessary waste. We learn how to knock it down with only 10. (And I can't wait to see how many people miss THIS point).

And again, any cop who lets fear overrule reason does. not. deserve. to be a cop. He's a danger to himself, his buddies, and the public. Is that why you left, Tommy? you put him on ignore dude(Oh that's right I won't see his answer. Not interested anyway. Probably all vitriol).

The whole point of this was missed, probably my fault (even tho I did introduce the idea only to have it ignored) ... Are we all not children of God? Do we all not deserve to be spiritually swiss cheesed by Him? Yet how many bullets would Jesus fire? Not a one ... He'd turn the gun on Himself to save us.

It's just a shame that so many so called "Christians" don't share His love for mankind.

2 for 2

just as opinionated as the other thread and just as ill informed

don't forget your massive wall of Bible verses now that will prove you are right

I think you did your op just the way you wanted it but it did not quite turn out the way you slanted it to go so now you are changing your tune and trying to wrap it in some kind of spiritual hocus pocus

It's just a shame that so many so called "Christians" don't share His love for mankind.

this is a form of baloney that is in a class by itself

stop hiding behind your religiosity. when things don't go your way, this is what you do. you snipe from behind your platform of self righteousness

what utter drivel to say police should not experience fear. fear is a good reaction. no fear, sounds more like what a psychopath might experience. perhaps you can hire yourself out as a fearless negotiator.

not interested in your response...you can put me on ignore also

 

[Susanna]

It has nothing to do with shooting to kill, or shooting to injure.

You aim at the largest part of the assailants body you can see..... cause, you know....... aim small, miss small.

Yeah, the barn is easier to aim at than the fence post lol.

 

[blue_ladybug]

You are sooooo far beyond rude...

The robber's dead?
I'm good.

 

[Tommy379]

Yeah, the barn is easier to aim at than the fence post lol.

Well, if you aim at the barn, you might actually hit it.

 

[melita916]

my sister is a police officer. thank the Lord she has never been in a situation where she had to shoot someone, and i pray she never will. call me selfish, but IF she was in that kind of situation, i would want her to protect herself.

 

[Oncefallen]

I always wonder how wise it is for an officer to fire until his weapon is empty. I mean, what if a second gunman appears? What if a second gunman appears and there are nine cops standing around with empty weapons, scrambling to reload? Seems like it would be prudent to keep a couple shells in the clip. :shrug:

It literally (with proper drill training) takes under a second to change a magazine and return a weapon to firing condition.

Jim, I haven't had TV since 2009.. Had the cable turned off and never turned on since...

And I get "neutralizing the threat". BUT does that ALWAYS have to mean killing the perp every time???

No, it doesn't.

A lot of factors go into whether someone survives a shooting or not the primary one being what internal organs are damaged. Clip the aorta and someone will bleed out internally in less than a minute whereas someone else could potentially take a large number of slugs and survive because every slug narrowly missing critical organs.

Even shooting someone in the leg (thank you Danny Glover and the Lethal Weapon franchise) can be lethal if the femoral artery is hit.

Disturbing that 50% of the votees have a violent mind and little regard for human life.

Extend that to cops who are armed with a gun, how many of these cops were itching to turn someone into swiss cheese? You know, and then claim self-defence, or claim that the criminal had gone all bravado and had stopped with an intention and belief that he could shoot all 9 cops using ricochet physics.

Sorry to tell you, the last thing a cop wants to do is fire his weapon.

 

[Willie-T]

Well, if you aim at the barn, you might actually hit it.

I dunno. Admittedly, I only qualified as Marksman on the 1,000" range with a 1911/45, but I once shot at a house we were building from about 200', with a 357, and completely missed it.

 

[laura_charlotte]

Disturbing that 50% of the votees have a violent mind and little regard for human life.

Extend that to cops who are armed with a gun, how many of these cops were itching to turn someone into swiss cheese? You know, and then claim self-defence, or claim that the criminal had gone all bravado and had stopped with an intention and belief that he could shoot all 9 cops using ricochet physics.

This is beyond true. Not just speaking from personal experience with members of the force being in the family, but you see it time and again in various forms of media as there is so much corruption within the Service itself.

 

[Susanna]

A police officer is supposed to be able to control their fear. If they can't then they shouldn't be cops.

Are you in law enforcement? Ever looked down the barrel of a gun or been in a shootout?

While I've got you here I will caveat you one thing from the other thread, which was the comment about being anti-union (I know, hijacked my own hijack there didn't I? lol). While I know Willlie is, I don't know that you are, but assumed so because most who hold to your opinions are. If I assumed wrongly, my apologies.

I recall the first time I looked down the barrel of a gun...a .22...that tiny little barrel...but to me it looked like the gates of hell...

Remember him asking...high as Georgia pine..should I just finish you?...then he asked my partner the same question...but he was an old, experienced guy and just grabbed the gun and threw it away...turned out it was empty...so no real danger...lol.