Some troublemaking people want to have it that Christ was killed at a pole. They are wrong. If you are seriously interested in the issue do a careful and close study on the matter and you will see that indeed it was on a cross that Christ was hung.
Cross?
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DesiredHaven
Guest
We know the serpent on the pole lifted up signified Christs own death though,
For example here
Numbers 21:8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
Jesus even referenced the same here
John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
And likewise he said,
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
And again his lifting up was signified
John 12:33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.
In reality he would be crucified
2Cr 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
The Bible tells us Jesus is the beginning and the end, the Aleph and the Tav.
Aleph - an ox head that reflected the strength of ABBA Father
Tav - is the cross, the sign for Yeshua
DesiredHaven
Senior MemberGen 22:6 And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it upon Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together.
I like this. Abraham, Isaac, the wood being laid on Isaac, the offering and the fire.
We find Christ the sacrificial Burnt Offering, the wood [cross] laid upon Him by God ("and bearing His cross went forth") and not by the Romans or Jews, Golgotha becoming the Brazen Altar of the Sacrifice of God, but the fire, where was the fire for God's burnt offering?
It was there, that Holy Ghost fire, that pillar of fire, that Shekinah glory it was there consuming the sacrifice of God.
But we can never see it never understand it but by the Spirit.
DesiredHaven
It just had to be wood that Christ had to die on, it couldn't be something else but wood.
Isaac was a type of Christ.
Why did Jesus had to bear a crown of thorns?
Was it because some Romans tried to be funny and make a mockery out of Him?
Not at all, it was God placing that crown of thorns on His brow.
The moment that Abraham said, "God shall provide for himself a lamb", immediately there was a "ram" [symbolizing a king], caught in a thicket. (There's the crown of thorns)
Why a crown of thorns?
The thorns symbolizes our sin, He the Son of God was so caught up by our sin [He was made sin for us by God] that there was no way for Him to escape but to die for the sin of the world.
There couldn't have been placed on His head any other crown, but that of thorns.
God is exact in fulfilling His Word.
"He was made sin for us", when did we see, God now placed adultery, fornication, murder on Christ?
But God speaks a language we can understand, a parable, allegory, type, metaphorically
Place a crown of thorns on His head, there's your sin I've placed on Him, [made Him to be sin for us], I speak to you in a parable, allegory, metaphorically, type.
But we are hard of hearing, blind and cannot see afar off thus failing to understand the things of the Spirit.
D
DesiredHaven
Guest
DesiredHaven
I like this. Abraham, Isaac, the wood being laid on Isaac, the offering and the fire.
We find Christ the sacrificial Burnt Offering, the wood [cross] laid upon Him by God ([/FONT][/COLOR]"and bearing His cross went forth") and not by the Romans or Jews, Golgotha becoming the Brazen Altar of the Sacrifice of God, but the fire, where was the fire for God's burnt offering?
It was there, that Holy Ghost fire, that pillar of fire, that Shekinah glory it was there consuming the sacrifice of God.
But we can never see it never understand it but by the Spirit.
DesiredHaven
It just had to be wood that Christ had to die on, it couldn't be something else but wood.
Isaac was a type of Christ.
Why did Jesus had to bear a crown of thorns?
Was it because some Romans tried to be funny and make a mockery out of Him?
Not at all, it was God placing that crown of thorns on His brow.
The moment that Abraham said, "God shall provide for himself a lamb", immediately there was a "ram" [symbolizing a king], caught in a thicket. (There's the crown of thorns)
Why a crown of thorns?
The thorns symbolizes our sin, He the Son of God was so caught up by our sin [He was made sin for us by God] that there was no way for Him to escape but to die for the sin of the world.
There couldn't have been placed on His head any other crown, but that of thorns.
God is exact in fulfilling His Word.
"He was made sin for us", when did we see, God now placed adultery, fornication, murder on Christ?
But God speaks a language we can understand, a parable, allegory, type, metaphorically
Place a crown of thorns on His head, there's your sin I've placed on Him, [made Him to be sin for us], I speak to you in a parable, allegory, metaphorically, type.
But we are hard of hearing, blind and cannot see afar off thus failing to understand the things of the Spirit.
I like the way you tried to add into it, I usually take things and separate them into categories that I can easily search for them, such as wood, and thorns so as to better stay within whatever picture I am looking at, and combine them together later, and that is always the tricky part to me, because in a sense I can see the scarlet robe being added to him as that (though our sins be as scarlet)
Adam and Jesus
Gen 3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee
John 19:5 Then came Jesus forth, wearing the crown of thorns
One speaks of the sweat of his brow, the other would sweat great drops of blood
First man was of the earth
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
The second man is Lord from heaven
Luke 22:44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.
Or even around Noah
Gen 3:16 .... cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
Which is interesting because right here
Gen 5:29 And he called his name Noah, saying,
This same shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the LORD hath cursed.
Ararat = "the curse reversed:"
Noah found "grace" in the eyes of God
The same shall "comfort us concerning the work and toil of our hands
2Thes 2:16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.
--------------------------
I just have this written up different ways depending on which picture I am looking at
Mark 14:34 And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch.
Luke 22:44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.
Isaiah 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors;and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Isaiah 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
2Cr 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
---------------------------------
However you can see it in them all, I grabbed it first in the robe because of the scarlet part
For example,
Mat 27:28 And they stripped him, and put on him a scarlet robe.
Which seems to speak to this
Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Then they take that which they put on him (off) and put his own raiment back on him.
Mat 27:31 And after that they had mocked him, they took the robe off from him, and put his own raiment on him, and led him away to crucify him.
So if they (at first removed his own ranment) put on a scarlet robe then took off the scarlet robe (they put on him) the purple robe was put back on as here...
John 19:2 And the soldiers platted a crown of thorns, and put it on his head, and they put on him a purple robe,
Where it says...
John 19:5 Then came Jesus forth, wearing the crown of thorns, and the purple robe. And Pilate saith unto them, Behold the man!
Which seems to agree in this...
2Cr 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
The scarlet robe being added to him (by them) seems to be signifying (in type) their own sins (that be as scarlet) shall be white as snow (in him) though God making a shew (by these) openly (in this manner).
As if some things are purposefully obscured awaiting us to catch up to them.
I have these written up more then a few times, differently, because for me their sins returning to him like a cloud seems to be shown (after he resurrected) having redeemed them and went up to the Father in a cloud.
Sorry about the mess, I snip from my studies and they can be in a mess of different fonts or colors, until I am ready to combine them and clean them up
Very good post thanks for that
God bless you
maybe someone remembers there were a few israelites/ hebrews and hebrew way of thinking at one time...... (hint, hint)
here's links from a quick search for the truth for some edifying, good , tremendous perhaps, research/ reading to spark some further prayer(not discussion - discussion here won't profit anyone, probably).
here's links from a quick search for the truth for some edifying, good , tremendous perhaps, research/ reading to spark some further prayer(not discussion - discussion here won't profit anyone, probably).
- The Messiah's Crucifixion Tree
hope-of-israel.org.nz/cructree.html
In the Bible we read that Yeshua the Messiah was crucified between two
criminals .... The patibulum of Christ was, without doubt, nailed to a LIVING TREE!
... for it is written: 'Cursed is everyone who is hung on a TREE' (Galatians 3:13,
NIV). - The "CROSS" of the Messiah! - Hope of Israel Ministries Church of God
www.hope-of-israel.org/crosschr.html
A number of churches (including the Jehovah Witnesses) claim that Yeshua the
..... a curse for us, for it is written: 'Cursed is everyone WHO IS HUNG ON A TREE!
... knew that Yeshua -- along with the patibulum -- was nailed to a LIVING TREE! - CrossOrStake - CommonTruth.com
commontruth.com/CrossOrStake.html
The Bible also refers to Jesus Christ as having been hung on a tree ... as to
whether Jesus was nailed to a simple stake, a living tree, or a two beamed cross. - Two Trees Two Passovers - ASIS.com
asis.com/~stag/starchiv/transcriptions/AlmondRod2.html
The Holy of Holies also marks the future throne of the future Messiah Yeshua
when ..... different meanings here – but it can mean a living tree, not a Roman
cross. ... Crucifixion, Paul makes a statement, Cursed is everyone who hung on a
tree. - How Jesus Died on Both a Tree and a Stake - Friends of the Nazarene
www.nazarene-friends.org/.../How Jesus Died on Both a Tree and a...
Was it on a living tree, wood, stake, pole or cross that the hanging of our Lord
took ... As Paul himself puts it: 'Cursed [is] everyone having been hung on a tree. - Rob Miller - Most Christians have it firmly implanted in... - Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/rob.miller.940641/posts/549099685110236
When they reached Yeshua they found him dead already. ... Torah by becoming
a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a TREE” (
Galatians 3:13). ... This Greek word refers to a LIVING TREE -- not a Roman cross
! - The Cross of Jesus - Wild Olive
www.wildolive.co.uk/the_cross.html
because anyone who is hung on a tree is under God's curse. ... (In Hebrew there
is no distinction between a living tree and a reconstructed structure such as the ...
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DesiredHaven
Guest
Isaiah 44:22 I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy trangessions, and,as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee.
Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
John 1:29 ....Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
Through him is preached the forgiveness of sins
Mat 27:28 And they stripped him, and put on him a scarlet robe.
Sins as scarlet, he who knew no sin became sin (that we could be the righteousness of God in Him)
Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Which reminds me of what followed after (let us reason together)
Acts 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
Acts17:3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.
Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; andwith his stripes we are healed.
Isaiah 44:22 I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: returned unto me; for I have redeemed thee
Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
John 1:29 ....Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
Through him is preached the forgiveness of sins
Mat 27:28 And they stripped him, and put on him a scarlet robe.
Sins as scarlet, he who knew no sin became sin (that we could be the righteousness of God in Him)
Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Which reminds me of what followed after (let us reason together)
Acts 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
Acts17:3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.
Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; andwith his stripes we are healed.
Isaiah 44:22 I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: returned unto me; for I have redeemed thee
DesiredHaven;1922428 For example said:
Putting on Red can also be shown in Jacob when he dressed like his red brother Esau. (Esau came out red)
Genesis 27:15 "And Rebekah took goodly raiment of her eldest son Esau, which were with her in the house, and put them upon Jacob her younger son:"
The sign in Jesus with the robes also had to do with Israel and the sequence shown in the design of the tabernacle 1st blue..2nd purple...last scarlet, or red. Red is the sign of sin "mark" of da beast.
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DesiredHaven
Guest
Yeah, I can see the colors here, and if I run off the blue (alone) I wonder if you can draw from the same this way...
Exodus 26:31 And thou shalt make a vail of blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen of cunning work: with cherubims shall it be made:
In the context of the vail of his flesh, a blueness is spoken of here
Prov 20:30 The blueness of a wound cleanseth away evil: so do stripes the inward parts of the belly.
And likewise of Jesus Christ speaks of his being wounded (even as he was bruised) and of his stripes
Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Hebrews 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Exodus 26:31 And thou shalt make a vail of blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen of cunning work: with cherubims shall it be made:
There is the bruise (even blueness of the wound) as he was wounded for our transgressions (the vail of blue, and the vail of his flesh) even the purple (for the one robe) and scarlet (for the other robe). Even though we know the word was made flesh (in the likeness of sinful flesh) Fine twisted linen is there where there was fine linen left off in the tomb (and fine linen can symbolize the righteousness of the saints) that which is given to wear.
Lots of cool things hid, although Im not good at all the symbolism, I still feel around trying to place them all
The vail of the flesh was first shown to be worn by Moses because the children of Israel could not bear to look upon the glory of God in his face, so he wore a vail upon his face. Just as Paul said he could not speak to them as in the glory of the spiritual, but only as in the carnal (because they were yet carnal) and unable to bear his words.
Jesus said the same to his disciples, he had many things to say to them but they were unable to bear them at that time (being yet carnal) but when the Spirit came (glory of God) he would guide them, and they would understand plainly. The vail of the flesh remains on many minds today, but when the Spirit of Truth comes in Christs name the vail shall be removed, and the light and the glory of God shall also shine upon their faces. Amen
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DesiredHaven
Guest
Thats how I see th vail upon the heart (even the mind) verses the removal of the same vail in Christ being able with an the open face to behold him as by the Spirit
Im always trying to write out and connect what I am catching but I still find that hard to do, without a hand
This would it in them
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
2Cr 3:13 ...that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
Who come to fulfil the same (even in his own flesh)
Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us,who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit
I gotta work on this apparently the colors just arent coordinating with my line of thought lol
This is very tedious, I really need to chuck the colors ( I dont have time for this)
These would be in line with the removal of the fleshy vail (carnal mind) and the enmity between the flesh and Spirit.
Romans 8:7
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Ephesians 2:15
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Ephesians 2:16
And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
The enmity was shown in the 2 seeds (flesh/Spirit)
Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
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DesiredHaven
Guest
Yes, and by the cross (at Golgotha) which was not only the place of his death (but by interpretation called the place of a skull) where we see "the vail of" the tempe rent "in twain" as well.
This one here too
.... it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly.
He does the same there
J
JesusistheChrist
Guest
If it was "a simple, straight pole", then wouldn't there have only been one nail used in relation to Christ's hands/wrists? IOW, wouldn't one hand have been on top of the other hand as depicted in the picture below?
The reason that I'm asking is because scripture speaks of THE NAILS, plural, used in relation to Christ's hands/wrists and not simply THE NAIL, singular:
John chapter 20
[24] But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
[25] The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
The mention of "the nails" in relation to Christ's hands/wrists certainly seems to suggest that His arms were stretched out horizontally as opposed to vertically.
Since you insist........
It will help to use our brains in this one.
Before I began to really look into this, I just went along with the "T" tradition. And as I said, I really didn't, and still don't care, too much about it, one way or another. I've been a carpenter and contractor all my life, so I was asked to construct a full size cross (the typically accepted type) for a church play. I decided to build it as it would have had to have been built back in 33AD...... no sawmill cut lumber, no screws, no bolts and nuts, no glue, and no routers to easily cut notches.... and only crude, molded, square nails. I soon discovered that most of their work in fastening joints together was lashing with very crude rope.
And, more importantly, I reaffirmed something I already knew from decades of woodworking, and that is that it is nearly impossible to make an effective joint with only two pieces of wood without any of the afore mentioned assistance. That kind of joinery takes many long hours and hours of chiseling and trial fitting, then more chiseling and fitting for any such joint to stay intact while a desperate 170 -200 lb man struggles for two or three days to somehow escape this torture.
And that kind of fitting is not an "assembly line" sort of work. This has to be done independently and exclusively for each joint.
This means you cannot have a man drag a random "cross-piece" up a hill, and just slip it into a notch cut into an already set upright piece..... or even a pole lying on the ground, unset.
And this is not even considering the fact that they would not have had scaffolding to work from to get well over 300 pounds of man and "cross-piece" up into position to then begin the rather laborious and time consuming job of somehow getting those two pieces of wood fastened together way up there, at least 7 to 10 feet in the air. What would they have propped their crude ladders against? Think about it. Just not possible.
Then, you have to consider what they were doing. Simply killing a criminal. These were rough, uncouth solders, who were just intent on getting these thieves hung up to die. Just like our cowboys of the Old West... just throw a rope over the nearest tree branch, and hang the cow rustler, quick so we can get home to super.
Before any of this, you had to have lumber. (Which was not at all easy to come by, as the local Home Depot charged so much) Go Google "Trees of Israel". They just did not have access to many decent trees for making a pretty little cross out of. Remember... no sawmills in those days. No railroad cars to bring all this stuff in.... since history tells us they sometimes crucified as many as 300 people at one time.... they would have needed a lot of good poles.
Most expedient thing, stretch 'em out on a 10 or 12 foot pole, nail them down to the thing, and then stand the whole thing up, and drop the lot into a hole dug in the ground..... all done, and it only took three or four dumb solders twenty minutes, or so.
Now, if you are still having trouble with this, I would suggest only one thing. You, yourself, TRY to build a cross out of a tree you went out and cut down with an ax, (no saws in those days).... no screws, no bolts or nuts, no glue, no power tools....THEN, (and this is the tough part) tie a strong young man to that contraption you cobbled together, lift it all up (considering you are assuming the upright was not already firmly implanted vertically, waiting for your cross-piece to be installed...... giving you the easiest scenario)..... then tell the young man he gets $500 if he can twist and struggle his way off there. I guarantee you he will have your "cross" torn apart in less than a half hour... and you'll be out $500 plus the time and money you spent trying to build a "cross".
I know, because I actually tried this.
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JesusistheChrist
Guest
Nice way to dodge my point about THE NAILS, plural.
Also, who says that they had none of those things in those days?
How was Noah's ark constructed?
Anyhow, next time please try addressing my actual point and use your own brain while doing so.
Thanks.
Even the most naïve person here knows better than to try to play word games with what the translators often did with the original language.
Go check to see how many decades the Ark took to build.
And such a foolish question about them having our modern tools and hardware back then doesn't even warrant a reply.
As I said, go try to build a cross. I did.
J
JesusistheChrist
Guest
Oh, so now I'm worse than the most naïve person here because YOU cannot answer my question about THE NAILS, plural? That's pretty convenient, isn't it? How about this instead:
You don't know what you're talking about. Works for me.