CT shooting: political thread

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How should we, as Christians, respond to this tragedy in Connecticut?


  • Total voters
    17
  • Poll closed .
Funny how the first thing you mention is Israel why are right wing conservatives so madly obsessed with this country. lol

The use of labels to attack someone you disagree with is a sign of one who can't logically argue their point.
It's called an 'ad hominem attack'.
In debate it is rued, and only applauded by other non-thinkers.
I am not right wing, I don't support the military conquest of other nations in the name of protecting Israel.
In this assumption you are wrong,.......but what else can one expect from someone willing to make such prejudicial judgements without knowing the beliefs of the ones they attack.
 
On our local news i noticed they began to ask the right question about the problem. They were interviewing several different people and it slipped out. Some one ask "where were the police that work at the schools",the police chief ask who?, and said we dont have enough officers to put in every school. Then they said that they said that in all of the school shootings they noticed their was never a shootout with the police so they wondered where they went. And again the officials said we dont have the man power to put a police officer in every school,we dont know what you mean. Then the news man said he had noticed these thing's from watching the clips from "world news now" where they are warning us not to believe everything we see on the internet. And then said that it was pointed out that at none of the schools where any of these shootings i.e.Virginia,Columbine,sandy-hook ect. there were never any of the shooters confronted by the police on duty., Now again the officials said we dont have enough police to put one in every school,we dont know what you mean. Then he said no,we all know each day we go to town in every city and town in america,each time we drive by the school in the morning and every day in the afternoon that you better do the speed limit because if you dont and you speed through the school zone you will get a big ticket.Now the police then said well,yes that's true at every school we post an officer to watch the school zones,cross walks,bus entrance ect.,,,Then the news man ask,"the police officer you sent to sandy hook the morning the shooting took place,where was he, when the gunman drove thru the school zone,walked down the crosswalk,across the bus circle and in the front door with a bushmaster .223? To say the least that was the end of the interview,the officials got up and left. I sure wish they show that interview again instead of the ones they are

THAT WAS BEAUTIFUL!!!! thank you for sharing!
 
Hmm.
I don't like to debate much, so hopefully I can say what I need to and be done.
The greatest issue that faces any statutory legislation is enforcement. You can write any law you want, you can even outlaw leaving the toilet seat up. Who though, will be there to apprehend those that do it? "We just have the police do it, silly face." Police officers cost money. Police equipment costs money. Jails and prisons... cost money. The second point, any campaign against any one thing,takes those resources. This naturally reduces the resources that can be applied to say, emergency calls.With the prolific number of firearms in the U.S., further regulation, and confiscation (which confiscation is being asked for) would devote an enormous amount of resources, and thus funds towards this one endeavor. Secondly, there is a large industry in this game. You remove the industry, you lay off those who used to earn from it. This means increased unemployment, and in the fields that are currently employing those who would be otherwise unemployed, skilled trades. Increasing unemployment naturally increases the number of people under the poverty line. Interestingly enough, from what financial demographic does most violent crime occur? ... Those under the poverty line. "It's okay, I know this guy on welfare, and he does just fine." That's great, but welfare costs money. "Well, they're going to start taxing the rich more, so we'll be getting more money anyway." This could be an argument if it was simply a single company shutting down, but it's an entire industry. Those at the top of these companies will have nowhere to go either. The companies can't liquidate the equipment, because they are tooled for items that are now illegal. Therefore they still have loans and overhead, and no margin. If they have no income, no income taxes. If they file bankruptcy, the Federal reserve eventually takes the hit..... more money.
All of the sudden, it's a whole lot more complex. "Peoples lives are so much more important than these worries." People's lives are incredibly important. Which is why we have to be wary of quick fix ideas.

There was an Assault Weapons Ban enacted in 1994. Remember how there were fewer incidents of mass killings in the late 90's?....... Neither do I. Oklahoma City, Ted Kacynski, .... Columbine. Columbine is interesting as one wasn't even old enough to acquire a long gun, much less a hand gun. It was illegal. They modified a shotgun, illegally. Yet, they were able to get the weapons and ammunition. Laws are simply ink on paper, unless they are followed and enforced. Since law enforcement is limited, they can't possibly check into every nook and cranny. Which isn't against them, law enforcement personnel are just the few among many out there. Here's a list of the high profile shootings from 96' to present (keep in mind some of these occurred in countries with EXTREMELY stringent gun control statutes) Time Line of Worldwide School Shootings — Infoplease.com Even if you aren't a detective you can see patterns. Two that come up immediately: Location and age. The shootings occur in areas (at least in the U.S.) that are gun free zones. The majority of perpetrators are under 18 years of age.The second point is very troubling, but the first point is understandable. If there is a choice between not knowing if there is someone there that can oppose them, and knowing there isn't, which one will they choose?

I've heard of the idea of arming certain teachers, and the like. Not a bad idea, as long as it's of their own accord. They have to understand the weight of that responsibility, to be the immediate response in that type of situation. To further it though, it should also be well known that they have them, so as to dissuade the actions from occurring in the first place. The prerequisite for all of this though, is education. It's bee presented as "This is all you have to do, and it'll be fixed." just as much as much as harsher gun control. The point that rings true is the example of Switzerland. approximately 50% of the country's populace owns a firearm. They enjoy one of the lowest violent crime rates in the world. It's not just because they have guns though. They have guns knowing both how to use them, and to respect them. They do this through mandatory military service. Obviously, The U.S. population is far too large for that sort of measure, that specific strategy wouldn't work. What is boot camp to the military? It's school. Education from a younger age as to what a firearm is, and a real testimony of the dangers involved when they are disrespected as tools that can cause harm, can have a pretty big effect. In Switzerland it works because the firearm says "respect that I'm armed", but so is everyone else. Yes, we should respect everyone in Christ's love, alas, not everybody shares in his love. A threat requires imminence and guns don't have it as they're inanimate objects. They cannot be a threat in this case. If they were dropped from an aircraft and accelerated to terminal velocity and someone was standing in their path....Then, they would be a threat. They are as much a tool to dissuade would be attackers, of any violent crime, as they are to maim or kill.




In the same breath (okay, a REALLY long breath) I wish weapons weren't required at all. I do wish that the Love for our brothers and sisters resided in each and every person in this world. War and violence are consequences of the sin inherent to the race of Adam. Come quickly Lord.
 
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I don't like to debate much, so hopefully I can say what I need to and be done.

Very well said. I'm sorry to hear you don't like debate, because I think you'd be good at it. A good, friendly discourse between two people who disagree with respect can be a good thing, and both sides can come away stronger for it. But I do respect your wishes, and just want to say again, VERY well said. Thank you.
 
Hmm.
I don't like to debate much, so hopefully I can say what I need to and be done.
The greatest issue that faces any statutory legislation is enforcement. You can write any law you want, you can even outlaw leaving the toilet seat up. Who though, will be there to apprehend those that do it? "We just have the police do it, silly face." Police officers cost money. Police equipment costs money. Jails and prisons... cost money. The second point, any campaign against any one thing,takes those resources. This naturally reduces the resources that can be applied to say, emergency calls.With the prolific number of firearms in the U.S., further regulation, and confiscation (which confiscation is being asked for) would devote an enormous amount of resources, and thus funds towards this one endeavor. Secondly, there is a large industry in this game. You remove the industry, you lay off those who used to earn from it. This means increased unemployment, and in the fields that are currently employing those who would be otherwise unemployed, skilled trades. Increasing unemployment naturally increases the number of people under the poverty line. Interestingly enough, from what financial demographic does most violent crime occur? ... Those under the poverty line. "It's okay, I know this guy on welfare, and he does just fine." That's great, but welfare costs money. "Well, they're going to start taxing the rich more, so we'll be getting more money anyway." This could be an argument if it was simply a single company shutting down, but it's an entire industry. Those at the top of these companies will have nowhere to go either. The companies can't liquidate the equipment, because they are tooled for items that are now illegal. Therefore they still have loans and overhead, and no margin. If they have no income, no income taxes. If they file bankruptcy, the Federal reserve eventually takes the hit..... more money.
All of the sudden, it's a whole lot more complex. "Peoples lives are so much more important than these worries." People's lives are incredibly important. Which is why we have to be wary of quick fix ideas.

There was an Assault Weapons Ban enacted in 1994. Remember how there were fewer incidents of mass killings in the late 90's?....... Neither do I. Oklahoma City, Ted Kacynski, .... Columbine. Columbine is interesting as one wasn't even old enough to acquire a long gun, much less a hand gun. It was illegal. They modified a shotgun, illegally. Yet, they were able to get the weapons and ammunition. Laws are simply ink on paper, unless they are followed and enforced. Since law enforcement is limited, they can't possibly check into every nook and cranny. Which isn't against them, law enforcement personnel are just the few among many out there. Here's a list of the high profile shootings from 96' to present (keep in mind some of these occurred in countries with EXTREMELY stringent gun control statutes) Time Line of Worldwide School Shootings — Infoplease.com Even if you aren't a detective you can see patterns. Two that come up immediately: Location and age. The shootings occur in areas (at least in the U.S.) that are gun free zones. The majority of perpetrators are under 18 years of age.The second point is very troubling, but the first point is understandable. If there is a choice between not knowing if there is someone there that can oppose them, and knowing there isn't, which one will they choose?

I've heard of the idea of arming certain teachers, and the like. Not a bad idea, as long as it's of their own accord. They have to understand the weight of that responsibility, to be the immediate response in that type of situation. To further it though, it should also be well known that they have them, so as to dissuade the actions from occurring in the first place. The prerequisite for all of this though, is education. It's bee presented as "This is all you have to do, and it'll be fixed." just as much as much as harsher gun control. The point that rings true is the example of Switzerland. approximately 50% of the country's populace owns a firearm. They enjoy one of the lowest violent crime rates in the world. It's not just because they have guns though. They have guns knowing both how to use them, and to respect them. They do this through mandatory military service. Obviously, The U.S. population is far too large for that sort of measure, that specific strategy wouldn't work. What is boot camp to the military? It's school. Education from a younger age as to what a firearm is, and a real testimony of the dangers involved when they are disrespected as tools that can cause harm, can have a pretty big effect. In Switzerland it works because the firearm says "respect that I'm armed", but so is everyone else. Yes, we should respect everyone in Christ's love, alas, not everybody shares in his love. A threat requires imminence and guns don't have it as they're inanimate objects. They cannot be a threat in this case. If they were dropped from an aircraft and accelerated to terminal velocity and someone was standing in their path....Then, they would be a threat. They are as much a tool to dissuade would be attackers, of any violent crime, as they are to maim or kill.




In the same breath (okay, a REALLY long breath) I wish weapons weren't required at all. I do wish that the Love for our brothers and sisters resided in each and every person in this world. War and violence are consequences of the sin inherent to the race of Adam. Come quickly Lord.
neither ted kacyszinski nor the oklahoma city attacks were the result of assault weapons, rather theywere all bomb based. so any argument about them and gun control is mute and invalid.
 
neither ted kacyszinski nor the oklahoma city attacks were the result of assault weapons, rather theywere all bomb based. so any argument about them and gun control is mute and invalid.

Which is an illustration of why you purposely miss the point. People don't need guns for mass killings. Murder is the evil, the means isn't. You were looking for mistakes in what I wrote, rather than raise points to counter. This is why I just don't like debating. It turns childish quickly, using typos (like if I were to point out you spelled moot wrong), or other plain grammatical error to somehow shake confidence in what has been said. No one has to believe me, but I would rather they educate themselves on a topic, or even just have the desire to do so rather than seek to point out something just because of disagreement. I have confidence that there are many people that are intelligent enough to understand when they don't feel they know about something, they need to seek the knowledge. Whether it be by an encyclopedic means, or just asking a targeted question.
For example, since it would be information specifically on my motive directly, you could have asked "Why did you include Ted Kacynski, and the Oklahoma City case?" Then I would have told you. Instead, you knew full well what I meant, but pushed an allusion towards my being either unintelligent or uninformed. I know the game. It isn't new, not even by a little. I apologize if it seems I'm only meaning to talk to you on this. Everyone, including myself, have resorted to the same tactics at one time or another. You just happened to get picked on today. God Bless
 
*Out of context thought and possible thread derailment.*

Grunge, Nautilus, Tandemtruths, and myself should have a ChristianChat webcam talk show in which we discuss the issues of the day with special guests on occasion.

Can you say bloggingheads.tv? Firing Line?
 
neither ted kacyszinski nor the oklahoma city attacks were the result of assault weapons, rather theywere all bomb based. so any argument about them and gun control is mute and invalid.

(1) I believe the word you're looking for is "moot," not "mute," as in, "It's a moot point." Or, as Joey from Friends would say, "It's a moo point."

(2) My understanding is that Tandemtruths was not making an argument about gun control; he was discussing violence in general. And the Oklahoma City attacks, the Mail Bombers, and other famous grusome moments in our history are violent, even if they did not include guns.

If your comment was simply a continuation of Tandemtruth's post, then we're good, but it sounded to me more like a rebuttal, and since he wasn't even making that argument to start with, then your point is "mooter." :)
 
The way it was worded was confusing, because he was talking about the assault weapons ban and then moved onto non assault weapon killers.. His point probably would have been better expressed by just sticking with people who used guns...
 
Americans have a culture of death and violence and people who call themselves followers of Christ frequently appropriate the bible and twist it's words to justify their love of the current violent system.

Little children have been executed in school and there are people here who think the solution is to have 21st military grade arsenal given to 8 year olds so they can defend themselves.

Jesus is watching you and seeing you justify this. Jesus watches everything and knows what's in your hearts and twisted logic.

Being stupid, heartless and moronic is no excuse for sin.

Jesus calls you to love others and to be wise.

If you think the solution is for 7 year old Jimmy to be given an Ak47, then you will be judged severely in the afterlife.

Matthew 7:20-23

True and False Disciples

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
 
Americans have a culture of death and violence and people who call themselves followers of Christ frequently appropriate the bible and twist it's words to justify their love of the current violent system.

Little children have been executed in school and there are people here who think the solution is to have 21st military grade arsenal given to 8 year olds so they can defend themselves.

Jesus is watching you and seeing you justify this. Jesus watches everything and knows what's in your hearts and twisted logic.

Being stupid, heartless and moronic is no excuse for sin.

Jesus calls you to love others and to be wise.

If you think the solution is for 7 year old Jimmy to be given an Ak47, then you will be judged severely in the afterlife.

David, where are you hearing that we think 8 years olds should be given military weapons. I live here in the U.S. and have never heard anyone say anything like that. No one in their right mind would even consider letting an 8 year old own a gun.
 
David, where are you hearing that we think 8 years olds should be given military weapons. I live here in the U.S. and have never heard anyone say anything like that. No one in their right mind would even consider letting an 8 year old own a gun.

With all due respect, in many cultures it is not uncommon for children as young as 8 or even 6 to own a gun. Many young'uns would go hunting with pa before they even started elementary school.

I would trust a gun in the hands of an 8-year-old who had been raised to respect guns, how to clean them, how to use them safely, etc., before I trusted one in the hands of a 30-year-old teacher who may or may not know what to do with it.
 
With all due respect, in many cultures it is not uncommon for children as young as 8 or even 6 to own a gun. Many young'uns would go hunting with pa before they even started elementary school.

I would trust a gun in the hands of an 8-year-old who had been raised to respect guns, how to clean them, how to use them safely, etc., before I trusted one in the hands of a 30-year-old teacher who may or may not know what to do with it.

I thought about the hunting aspect, but they still do not own the guns (unless your thinking of the Red Ryder BB guns which are less dangerous then Military guns.) Now back in the frontier days, they might have own guns, but again, they were probably much older then 8. And here in the U.S., last time I knew, you still have to be 18 to own a gun. As for training someone of 8 years old, I did not mention that at all. While I don't think it's wise, I know in rural areas, it might be beneficial, as children may have to face things, such as wild animals.

In regards to trusting them in the hands of an 8 year old who's been trained or a 30 year old teacher who hasn't in a classroom, I would trust it in neither. Eight year old's do not have the some reasoning as an adult not to mention the experience of dealing with trying situations, that most adults have (hopefully, not like the situation as Newtown, Co.) Not to mention, that we should not be depending on an eight year old protecting the adults. Instead, the adults should be protecting the eight year old's. And even if a child has been trained properly in regards to gun safety, it doesn't mean they will not try and show it off, or think they are not invincible. And unfortunately this is all too real of a situation. Two many children have accidentally shot either themselves or someone else, just showing off. I even knew a student at a school that I previously taught at who ended up killing another student, supposedly just showing off the gun. And while the pressure at 8 might not be as strong as a teen, some children very much have to feel like they fit in or are cool. And yes, that does start off at a very young age.
 
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Tandem, the server won't let me rep you again so soon, but your posts up there are deserving of far more than a "like", Sir. Thanks for your posts.
 
I should also add to my above posts, children are far more likely to freeze or become overconfident in stressful situations then adults in general.
 
Americans have a culture of death and violence and people who call themselves followers of Christ frequently appropriate the bible and twist it's words to justify their love of the current violent system.

Little children have been executed in school and there are people here who think the solution is to have 21st military grade arsenal given to 8 year olds so they can defend themselves.

Jesus is watching you and seeing you justify this. Jesus watches everything and knows what's in your hearts and twisted logic.

Being stupid, heartless and moronic is no excuse for sin.

Jesus calls you to love others and to be wise.

If you think the solution is for 7 year old Jimmy to be given an Ak47, then you will be judged severely in the afterlife.

"Being stupid, heartless, and moronic is no excuse for sin."
Amen David_1.
As stupid as claiming anyone on this thread said to arm children.
 
David, where are you hearing that we think 8 years olds should be given military weapons. I live here in the U.S. and have never heard anyone say anything like that. No one in their right mind would even consider letting an 8 year old own a gun.

Well, of course literally, the next post after you explains a lot of the sheer insanity I've been hearing.

What a barbaric and backwards nation the US is.

*Shaking my head*

Arming kids with rocket launches and bazookas.

SIGH.
 
Well, of course literally, the next post after you explains a lot of the sheer insanity I've been hearing.

If you look carefully, you will see that Diva didn't say she was in favor of arming school children. She in fact stated that arming a young person who knew how to use a weapon would be better than putting a weapon in the hands of an adult who might not know how to use one. She never said she was in favor of either of those things.

She can speak for herself, but I doubt she is in favor of arming 7-year-olds.


What a barbaric and backwards nation the US is.

Thanks for insulting my country and painting us all as barbaric because of the views of a few people. I'm sort of glad, because hopefully your bigotry will make you afraid to come to the U.S.

Your statement was ignorant and offensive. Biblically, if you offend your brother, you should apologize.


*Shaking my head*

Arming kids with rocket launches and bazookas.

SIGH.


More asinine straw-man arguments. You know, you really should try to emulate Christ.
 
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If you look carefully, you will see that Diva didn't say she was in favor of arming school children. She in fact stated that arming a young person who knew how to use a weapon would be better than putting a weapon in the hands of an adult who might not know how to use one. She never said she was in favor of either of those things.

She can speak for herself, but I doubt she is in favor of arming 7-year-olds.
Thank you, Jim. It's very kind of you to stick up for me. You are indeed correct: I have no interest in starting a program whereby all school children are armed. I was, as you guessed, merely stating that a child who has grown up learning how to care for a gun (as some children are, though fewer now than in prior generations) would be more trustworthy than an adult who hadn't had training.

There are children's rifles that are "real" guns, not just bbs or air-pellet. I happen to own one, because I'm very short (5 feet, shorter than most 12-year-olds), and they are designed for kids, but just as capable of killing their target. Ask the rabid raccoon I killed with that "kids" gun last year, before it could bite any of my family or pets.

Kids who grow up with a respect for guns are actually very good in tense situations, because that's how they've been trained. They are no more likely to "act irrationally" under pressure than an adult in the same situation. In fact, I don't know how many people here heard or read about the shootings in a mall in the Portland, Oregon suburb of Clackamas last week. Two people were killed. Only two. Many news agencies did not report why it was a relatively low body count, considering it was one of the busiest shopping days of the year, and the mall was packed. For those who haven't heard, what happened is that a civilian, a man who has a concealed weapon permit, was there, and pulled his weapon, aiming it at the shooter. He did not fire, because he was not sure he had a clear shot, and did not want to risk injuring any innocent bystanders. But he aimed. The gunman saw him threw the gun and ran.

I hate to admit it, but this is one case where the NRA is right: a well-armed public actually minimized the death in this one situation. Now, I don't know if this was a fluke, like the one person who was saved in an accident because he didn't wear a seat belt vs. the millions who are saved by seat belts and millions who are killed because they weren't wearing a seat belt. But at least in this one case, it worked like the NRA argues it's supposed to.

As for the U.S. being violent, I'm not sure the U.S. is significantly worse or better than any other country. We're all lost without God. According to Scripture, the only nation that could possibly claim "favored status" would be Israel, and that's another debate for another thread. Other than that, I acknowledge that humans tend to be violent, sinful creatures, left to their own devices. There but for the grace of God....