Cut off her hand...

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
L

LPT

Guest
So, please explain how cutting off a woman’s hand for defending her husband and stopping a fight has anything to do with a Levirate marriage.
And I have heard all the arguments that by grabbing a man by the genitals, she endangers the messianic line, or can prevent a man having children. It’s all nonsense. If a man gets a football in the groin, he is down for a few minutes and then up and playing again. It isn’t nice but it isn’t the same as ruining his manhood.
The law could easily have said that a woman who destroys a man’s genitals should have her hand cut off and that would at least be consistent with the eye for eye concept. But merely grasping the genitals is a different matter entirely.
I think the severity of the punishment is connected with the idea of a strange woman touching another man’s genitals, or having power over a man by taking advantage of his weakness. So, this scripture is rooted in male paranoia and was tolerated by God in the same way as divorce.
I know this doesn’t sit well with all those who think that the law is a perfect expression of God’s will and scripture is perfect and sacred. I take the view that scripture was a joint venture between man and God. The spirit is certainly the senior partner, but a man was involved. He is not an automatic typewriter. But he is not free to write any idea that pops into his head. The scripture is God and man working together. The man’s character, education and experience all contribute to the flavour of the final work. God accepts this limitation and is able to get his message across despite it. God made concessions. There are aspects of the law that are merely stop gap measures until the perfect will of God was expressed in Christ. These two verses in Deuteronomy, are for me, an example of this.
It's in the translations of the passage especially the word hand/Palm, it's not quite translated in English properly the meaning, it's about cutting her hand off in Levirate marriage. I know it doesn't sit well with people who want to defend their husband when they could get killed in a fight but the argument was between the two men alone. and farther more the woman could damage the man from having children, the logical way to handle such actions is the woman would not be able to remarry in the future, there was no tying the tubes of a woman or anything like that so the eye for an eye is not quite proper judgement when the one being judged does not have testicles.
 
L

LPT

Guest
Here's a good write from another site the poster explains it quite well IMO.

This passage can be seen as one of the most significant in the Old Testament.

Since there is no record of what is described ever being done, it is more difficult to determine the meaning. Yet one could consider how the law should be applied in a given situation and seek understanding from the plain sense of the passage. That is, apply sound exegesis.

The passage describes a situation and response:

If two men fight together, and the wife of one draws near to rescue her husband from the hand (מִיַּ֣ד) of the one attacking him, and puts out her hand (יָדָ֔הּ) and seizes him by the genitals, (25:11) 1
then you shall cut off her hand (כַּפָּ֑הּ); your eye shall not pity her. (25:12)
What is described seems to be straight forward cause and effect: she used her hand so she loses her hand. That presents a problem:

While physical mutilation is characteristic in the Middle Assyrian Laws, it is nowhere else prescribed in the Bible, except in the formula for talion (19.21, Exod. 21.23-24; Lev. 24.19-20). That formula does not apply here, however, since there is can be no symmetry between injury and punishment. 2​
[Talion], "an eye for an eye," seemingly would be violated by the punishment given to the woman.

However, a close examination shows the translation into English is not precise: "hand" in the punishment is not the same "hand" in the offense:

  • Verse 11: Hand = יָדָ֔הּ (yad)
  • Verse 12: Hand = כַּפָּ֑הּ (kaph)
The precise translation of kaph when used in conjunction with hand is "palm." While the translation is not precise, it makes sense. One way to cut off the palm is to remove the hand. Yet, since it is obvious the Law reads kaph (v12) after using yad (v11), then it follows a different meaning should be considered and invites further study for the correct response when the Law is violated.

Consider a second case where the woman kicked a man with her foot. Does this action violate the Law? Logic says if using the hand is wrong, so is using the foot (which would likely cause more serious injury). Inherent in any Law that prohibits an action is the implication that a similar more serious action is prohibited by the same Law. A woman who kicked a man would not be considered as innocent on the basis that the Law specified the use of the hand. Rather, sound application of the Law would dictate both the use of the hand or the foot were prohibited.

What is logical in application is inherent in punishment: another meaning of kaph is sole (of the foot):

But the dove found no resting place for the sole (kaph) of her foot, and she returned into the ark to him... (Genesis 8:9)
Every place on which the sole (kaph) of your foot treads shall be yours... (Deuteronomy 11:24)
What is logical and reasonable from the nature of the offense is made clear by the use of kaphas the punishment. Sound exegesis of the passage demonstrates the Law prohibits the use of the foot since the required punishment is the removal of the kaph.

However, the ambiguity of kaph presents a valid choice: cut off the palm or the sole? The obvious answer, palm if hand and sole if foot, is not that simple because of the talion which requires "punishment that fits the crime." What damage did the woman do? Was there permanent damage done to the man? If not why should a woman permanently lose a part of her body? There is no logical solution to this issue since there is no way to determine if the man suffered permanent damage, which is the inability to produce a child. Also, even if the man could not produce a child, it could be due to a barren wife (a common theme in Scripture).

A suitable solution begins by expanding the context of the passage. Deuteronomy 25:5-10 is a codification of the levirate marriage (described in Genesis 38). If a man dies without producing an heir his brother is required to to produce a child with the widowed wife to carry on his brother's name. It also addresses the situation where the brother refuses to perform this duty.

The passage addresses a reality that some men will fail to comply with the Law (just as Onan in Genesis 38). This fact of life raises a question: how far can a woman go to preserve her husband's life to avoid the potential problems of levirate marriage? Immediately following is the passage which describes a woman trying to save her husband's life.

What penalty should be imposed if a woman tries to save her husband's life by injuring a man (who is not her husband) in the genitals? The Law purposely fails to directly connect kaph either to the hand or the foot, in effect giving a choice of punishment. While logic and reason leads to the palm if the hand was used or the sole if the foot was used, the use of kaph within Scripture allows another possibility:

Now when He saw that He did not prevail against him, He touched the socket (kaph) of his hip; and the socket (kaph) of Jacob’s hip was out of joint as He wrestled with him. (Genesis 32:25)
The Law permits "cutting off" a woman's kaph, her hip or pelvic area. That is, she forfeits her right to the levirate marriage. Since she attempted to preserve her husband's life by improperly touching another man, her right to levirate marriage under the Law must be cut off and she shall not be pitied. So the principle of talion is in fact at work here as both the man who was injured and the woman only lose the potential of having a child in the future.

The word kaph is the key to understanding Deuteronomy 25:11-12. It also brings to light some significant facts:

  • This passage is objective evidence the original language is from God. There is no logical reason why any language would have a single word for 3 separate and unrelated parts of the human body. Yet, such a word is found in Hebrew (and no other language).
  • The word kaph has been specifically designed for use in this text. In all other places of Scripture, "palm" or "sole" or "socket" could be substituted without changing the meaning of the passage. Only in Deuteronomy 25:12 are all 3 meanings needed. This is objective against the theory of multiple sources for the Torah. It demonstrates a single author was responsible for both the word and its use throughout Genesis to Deuteronomy.
  • The word kaph is one of the most important words used in Scripture to describe God's plan of redemption of mankind. It is found in the key events of the ark returning to dry land; Jacob's name being changed to Israel; the nation of Israel taking possession of the land.
We should also consider why God would see the need to have a word such as kaph and look for a real event which serves as the origin of this word. This is found in the Garden of Eden on the day they ate from the tree. First they used their palms to pick/receive the fruit. Next they made aprons of figs leaves which the hip keep from falling to cover their body. Finally they were driven out of the garden where the soles of their feet touched the ground.

God, the True Source of all Scripture, created the Hebrew language with a word that encompasses all three part of the human body involved in the rebellion of mankind in the Garden of Eden.


https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/5137/what-is-the-meaning-of-deuteronomy-2511-12
 

Scrobulous

Active member
Sep 17, 2018
290
73
28
It's in the translations of the passage especially the word hand/Palm, it's not quite translated in English properly the meaning, it's about cutting her hand off in Levirate marriage. I know it doesn't sit well with people who want to defend their husband when they could get killed in a fight but the argument was between the two men alone. and farther more the woman could damage the man from having children, the logical way to handle such actions is the woman would not be able to remarry in the future, there was no tying the tubes of a woman or anything like that so the eye for an eye is not quite proper judgement when the one being judged does not have testicles.
LPT, this is why I use the forum. You have provided a brilliant answer to my question and I am deeply in your debt. I didn’t really understand what you are saying, until I read your next post and the link, but it is such a relief!
In some ways it is frightening how a lack of understanding can lead the translators to write the very opposite of what the text is saying. A law that seems cruel and brutal was actually designed to prevent the use of undue force!
Look how many posts we have had and yours was the only one that made sense.
Thanks again!
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
2,428
113
We are reading of God speaking to a society 6,000 years ago who lived with ideas such as it being right to kill babies to appease gods, and to cut off a hand for stealing an apple.

God told us "an eye for an eye", a saying that reads we must have justice, and not to be read as it being OK to take a person's eye. We speak of searching for a needle in a haystack, and that isn't speaking of a needle search.

Also, there were happenings we think are so far out the book telling of them has been condemned as our world ages such as speaking of the giants. Enoch told of them. This book was accepted even by writers of the NT. Enoch said they were so evil and so large that the earth couldn't sustain them. The flood got rid of them.

There were many laws protecting people from the punishment of stoning. We have prisons and our laws protecting people from falsely accusations are not as strict as they were. Then, two people had to be an eye witness.

God wanted us to make our world safe from people or animals who would kill. If we let killers live on in our world we are not safe.
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
5,399
695
113
It's in the translations of the passage especially the word hand/Palm, it's not quite translated in English properly the meaning, it's about cutting her hand off in Levirate marriage. I know it doesn't sit well with people who want to defend their husband when they could get killed in a fight but the argument was between the two men alone. and farther more the woman could damage the man from having children, the logical way to handle such actions is the woman would not be able to remarry in the future, there was no tying the tubes of a woman or anything like that so the eye for an eye is not quite proper judgement when the one being judged does not have testicles.
The woman is already married though. It is unlikely she will divorce, bearing in mind what the divorce law was like, and it is unlikely her husband will be killed in the fight thanks to her intervention. Or do I misunderstand you?
 
Jul 21, 2018
62
40
18
I believe the "apparent" cruelty of God in these matters, as well the Flood, and the Multiple decrees to slaughter EVERY man, woman, child, and infant, and in some cases animals, of certain people groups, makes no sense, and can actually trip up Christians, UNLESS we view them in light of Genesis 6.

In Genesis 6 we see fallen angels mating with human women creating a hybrid race of people. In extra-Biblical texts, that ARE mentioned in the Bible, we see that animals ALSO were "mixed" creating unnatural hybrid animals.

The DNA of these abominations continued in some of these people groups. Thus God ensured that this particular sin, carried forth by DNA, was not mixed with the people that would bring forth the Messiah.

God took incredible seriousness ANY attempt to either destroy, like in the case of the woman grabbing the man's genitals, or CORRUPT the seed by which His Son would come.
I guess I'm confused with the bold part of your post.

Do you believe demon spirits really procreated with human women? Or am I misunderstanding your point?

Luke 24:39 "39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. "

How can something without flesh and bone procreate with a human woman?
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
13,584
9,103
113
I guess I'm confused with the bold part of your post.

Do you believe demon spirits really procreated with human women? Or am I misunderstanding your point?

Luke 24:39 "39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. "

How can something without flesh and bone procreate with a human woman?
I do not believe demons and fallen Angels are synonymous.
In post #178 I explain this a little further.

Where is it said the Angels couldn't take on human form? The Bible says the opposite.
 

Scrobulous

Active member
Sep 17, 2018
290
73
28
The woman is already married though. It is unlikely she will divorce, bearing in mind what the divorce law was like, and it is unlikely her husband will be killed in the fight thanks to her intervention. Or do I misunderstand you?
Hi PS,
no, you understand the comments correctly, she is married.
But remember, it would have been impossible, at that time, to guarantee that the man will not have children.. And even if he didn’t have children, there may be other causes. It could only have been a risk or possibility.
So she loses the right to a Levirate marriage and the possibility of children through this means.
The law is not ideal, but it is logical.
The point for me is that it is not an injunction to amputate limbs, a practice seen nowhere else in the law of Moses.
 

GraceAndTruth

Well-known member
Sep 28, 2015
2,031
637
113
Its just always so amazing to see how some super spiritual people hold themselves as more merciful than God and want to rewrite the Law. I am just happy to be living in the covenant of grace.
 

Embankment

Senior Member
Feb 28, 2017
703
196
43
The thing about the Law is that it didn’t really apply even then. God only gave the Law to show us we can’t please a God on our on accord. It’s all about Jesus!
 

GraceAndTruth

Well-known member
Sep 28, 2015
2,031
637
113
The thing about the Law is that it didn’t really apply even then. God only gave the Law to show us we can’t please a God on our on accord. It’s all about Jesus!
EXACTLY which is why He gave the Jews the means to satisfy His justice with blood sacrifice to wash their sins!!
 

Embankment

Senior Member
Feb 28, 2017
703
196
43
Yes, as an example of the true sacrifice and seal of the covenant that followed with the death of Jesus.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
2,428
113
The thing about the Law is that it didn’t really apply even then. God only gave the Law to show us we can’t please a God on our on accord. It’s all about Jesus!
Have you read what the Lord tells us about the law? Read Galatians 5:18 to 26. There are many reasons we need God's guidance, not just the only one you know.

God does not want us to be lawless. When the entire world except for one family lived a lawless life so all were dead in their sins God started all over again with humans, starting with Noah who knew law.

You must be speaking of obedience to only the letter of the law, without the spirit of the law.

God would never leave us defenseless and without safety or order. Lawlessness means death. Jesus forgives us, cleans us from lawlessness, and gives us His spirit of love. The spirit of love in Christ gives us obedience and discipline..

Galatians 5:22 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no Law.…
 

Embankment

Senior Member
Feb 28, 2017
703
196
43
Have you read what the Lord tells us about the law? Read Galatians 5:18 to 26. There are many reasons we need God's guidance, not just the only one you know.

God does not want us to be lawless. When the entire world except for one family lived a lawless life so all were dead in their sins God started all over again with humans, starting with Noah who knew law.

You must be speaking of obedience to only the letter of the law, without the spirit of the law.

God would never leave us defenseless and without safety or order. Lawlessness means death. Jesus forgives us, cleans us from lawlessness, and gives us His spirit of love. The spirit of love in Christ gives us obedience and discipline..

Galatians 5:22 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no Law.…
I have absolutely no idea how to reply to this............
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
9,163
1,791
113
That's the point I'm making, you read it as with a English language mind and not how the original language intended it to be and that was about a Levirate marriage.
Why would it be about a Levirate marriage? The passage doesn't say the other guy in the fight was her husband's brother. She gets her hand chopped off instead of one of the men's shoe being removed. Where is the connection in your mind?
 

Scrobulous

Active member
Sep 17, 2018
290
73
28
Why would it be about a Levirate marriage? The passage doesn't say the other guy in the fight was her husband's brother. She gets her hand chopped off instead of one of the men's shoe being removed. Where is the connection in your mind?

You need to read the other posts by LPT and the link, but in short it is a matter of translation. The same hebrew work is used for hand, foot and hip. In essence the text says that her hip should be cut off, but Jewish interpretation of such a very strange sentance was clear, she was to be denied the right to a Levirate marriage, in the event of her husband’s death. This reduces her chances of having children.
In the case of an injury to her husband’s assailant, it would not be possible to establish for certain that such an injury would lead to childlessness. So, we are balancing the risk of such a possibility against the risk of the woman losing her husband. The law attempts the match the crime and the punishment.
As you know, when a guy gets hit in the groin by a football, he is incapacitated but usually recovers fairly quickly. It is not as though she pulls anything off. The idea of the law is to discourage the use of undue force in a confrontation. The english translation gives entirely the opposite impression. No amputations are implied in this law!
 

Katy-follower

Senior Member
Jun 25, 2011
2,719
155
63
How many would not have been born had the man have lost his ability to reproduce? I think it has more to do with this because the preceding verses speak of what was expected in order to preserve the family line. Being fruitful and multiplying was important to God. So a woman inflicting damage on a man would come with a severe punishment, so as to prevent the crime from ever happening to begin with.
 

Scrobulous

Active member
Sep 17, 2018
290
73
28
How many would not have been born had the man have lost his ability to reproduce? I think it has more to do with this because the preceding verses speak of what was expected in order to preserve the family line. Being fruitful and multiplying was important to God. So a woman inflicting damage on a man would come with a severe punishment, so as to prevent the crime from ever happening to begin with.
Actually the preceding verses speak explicitely about Levirate marriage, which protects a woman’s ability to produce hiers for a dead husband (and to protect her in old age). The law seems designed to prevent a woman from being too zealous in defence of her husband and thereby using undue force. The law is preventative but you can see that in both cases the issue of the family line is of concern.
A woman does not want her husband killed and a man does not want his genitals damaged. There is a symmetry here. The law is trying to balance the interests of both parties.
I think this is great! I read the text in english and had no idea of the issues underlying, what appeared to be, a very strange scripture about cutting off a woman’s hand.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
9,163
1,791
113
Here's a good write from another site the poster explains it quite well IMO.
The precise translation of kaph when used in conjunction with hand is "palm." While the translation is not precise, it makes sense. One way to cut off the palm is to remove the hand. Yet, since it is obvious the Law reads kaph (v12) after using yad (v11), then it follows a different meaning should be considered and invites further study for the correct response when the Law is violated.[/quote]


Shouldn't it follow that the _same_ meaning is intended? Why a different meaning?

I had a look at the Babylonian Talmud, and in it, they debate whether this applies to the wife of a court officer if she has done so carrying out the orders of the court. The translation from the Aramaic uses 'hand'. It would be interesting to see how the Aramaic is translated, but I do not have the ability to check this out at the current time.

Now when He saw that He did not prevail against him, He touched the socket (kaph) of his hip; and the socket (kaph) of Jacob’s hip was out of joint as He wrestled with him. (Genesis 32:25)
The Law permits "cutting off" a woman's kaph, her hip or pelvic area. That is, she forfeits her right to the levirate marriage.
Sorry the 'leap' here is way too big to take without some real evidence. Why would the Hebrew reader interpret cutting a word that can refer to the palm of the hand or the hip socket to refer to remove the right to a Levrite marriage.

The hip is in the pelvic area.... so it must refer back to the Levrite marriage. That's reasonable, isn't it? No it's not. We need some reason these ideas are more connected than that, some linguistic usage type evidence or something. Did any of the ancient Jews ever take it that way?

I am wondering if anyone in history ever interpreted it that way before this poster.
 

Scrobulous

Active member
Sep 17, 2018
290
73
28
Sorry the 'leap' here is way too big to take without some real evidence. Why would the Hebrew reader interpret cutting a word that can refer to the palm of the hand or the hip socket to refer to remove the right to a Levrite marriage.

The hip is in the pelvic area.... so it must refer back to the Levrite marriage. That's reasonable, isn't it? No it's not. We need some reason these ideas are more connected than that, some linguistic usage type evidence or something. Did any of the ancient Jews ever take it that way?

I am wondering if anyone in history ever interpreted it that way before this poster.
It is difficult to establish how the jews in ancient times interpreted this. I looked but couldn’t even find much about how modern jews interpret it, it seems such a thing is not exactly a hot issue!
Plenty of jews don’t seem to believe the bible at all.
So it comes down to how you would interpret ‘cutting off her hip’. Some kind of sawing in half or female genital mutilation?
The text has just been talking about Levirate marriage, is it too big a leap for you to make the connection?
The one thing many jews did say was that amputation was not a practice in Israel, even in ancient times.