Dan 9:25 7 weeks & 62 weeks

[GaryA]

You need to remember that - while you are looking at the plain literal sense of a verse/passage - you cannot just decide to overlook and leave out something like '(let him that readeth understand,)' - because, it is just as important as the rest of the verse in a plain reading of scripture. And, you must understand how it affects the meaning of the verse/passage if you are to obtain the proper interpretation.

It is yo who needs to read and understand what Daniel, Christ, Paul, and John have said. Instead you have invented your own eschatology. But I will leave you to your own ideas.

With regard to the parenthetical phrases in Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14 - I do understand them - and, I can explain them. Only, when I have done so in the past - if I remember correctly - I received only mocking and ridicule, and not much else if anything else.

How about you? Do you understand them? Do you understand how they affect the overall meaning of the verse/passage? Do you believe they are important to the meaning of the verse/passage? Do you believe that we must have a proper understanding of them to be able to properly interpret the verses/passages? Do you believe it can be "dangerous" to assume an interpretation of the verses/passages that ignores them and leaves them out?

 

[Hakawaka]

I am waiting for you to list for me all of the verses/passages where Daniel, Christ, Paul, and John all prophesied about a third [physical] temple.

He is probably talking about 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4, Matthew 24:15, Revelation 11:1-2, Daniel 12:11 etc.

 

[GaryA]

He is probably talking about 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4, Matthew 24:15, Revelation 11:1-2, Daniel 12:11 etc.

The following should help you understand the intent of my posts.

1)

If a third [physical] temple were to actually be built, that does not automatically make it fulfilled biblical prophecy.

Daniel, Christ, Paul, and John all prophesied about this temple, but you are willing to ignore all that?

I am waiting for you to list for me all of the verses/passages where Daniel, Christ, Paul, and John all prophesied about a third [physical] temple.

2)

You need to remember that - while you are looking at the plain literal sense of a verse/passage - you cannot just decide to overlook and leave out something like '(let him that readeth understand,)' - because, it is just as important as the rest of the verse in a plain reading of scripture. And, you must understand how it affects the meaning of the verse/passage if you are to obtain the proper interpretation.

It is yo who needs to read and understand what Daniel, Christ, Paul, and John have said.

I am waiting for you to list for me all of the verses/passages where Daniel, Christ, Paul, and John all prophesied about a third [physical] temple.

I just think it is really lame when someone makes a strong statement such as is in his quoted posts above without being willing to list/show the specific verses/passages that justify the statement. In making such a statement, he should have been willing to also list the verses/passages where Daniel, Christ, Paul, and John all prophesied about a third [physical] temple.

 

[DavyP]

Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. KJV

“Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. NIV

Can anyone explain the two comings and the time?

Daniel 9 with the 70 weeks prophecy reveals 3 Periods:

1. FIRST PERIOD: the "seven sevens" or 49 years, 454 B.C. to 405 B.C. -- begins with the commandment to go forth and restore and rebuild Jerusalem. This was 454 B.C. in the "twentieth year of Artaxerxes", who is identified with the great king Astyages. And the period ends with the completion of the walls and dedication of the temple in 405 B.C.

2. SECOND PERIOD: the sixty two sevens, or 434 years; from 405 B.C. to the time that Lord Jesus was 'cut off' on His cross.

3. THIRD PERIOD: the last seventieth seven of Dan.9:27; still yet future to us, and will be fulfilled at the end of this world as the previous periods were.


Dan 9:25-27
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

The above verse describes from 454 B.C. to the time of Christ's crucifixion on the cross, which ended the 69 weeks (first period and second period). The next verse completes this idea about Christ being cut off at the finish of the 69th week, so this 25th verse can be misleading if one does not continue reading...

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

The meaning is Messiah was cut off at the end of the 69th week, not the 70th week. Jesus has nothing to do with the events of the 70th week that are still future to us today, and that final 'week' He actually warned the Church about for the end of this world in His Olivet discourse of Matthew 24 and Mark 13.

That "prince that shall come" who destroyed Jerusalem and the 2nd temple was the Roman general Titus and his army in 70 A.D. Titus represented a 'type' of antichrist.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
KJV

That "he" in verse 27 means we have to go back to the previous verse and pick up last subject person spoken of, and that is that "prince" (commander per Hebrew) the Roman general Titus who destroyed Jerusalem and the 2nd temple in 70 A.D.

However, this final "one week" (70th) is about the final Antichrist that is to come at the end of this world. Titus only served as a little antichrist pattern. The Romans under Titus in 70 A.D. failed to get possession the temple, as it burned down before they could get control of it (per Jewish historian Josephus, circa 100 A.D.).

Thus no placing of an "abomination of desolation" like Jesus warned happened in 70 A.D. The "abomination that maketh desolate" which Jesus quoted from Daniel 11:31 is still yet to happen in a future 3rd Jewish temple to be built in Jerusalem for the end of this world. Today's Orthodox religious Jews in Jerusalem have the stones and materials ready to build their 3rd temple in Jerusalem.

 

[Omegatime]

Daniel 9 with the 70 weeks prophecy reveals 3 Periods:

1. FIRST PERIOD: the "seven sevens" or 49 years, 454 B.C. to 405 B.C. -- begins with the commandment to go forth and restore and rebuild Jerusalem. This was 454 B.C. in the "twentieth year of Artaxerxes", who is identified with the great king Astyages. And the period ends with the completion of the walls and dedication of the temple in 405 B.C.

2. SECOND PERIOD: the sixty two sevens, or 434 years; from 405 B.C. to the time that Lord Jesus was 'cut off' on His cross.

3. THIRD PERIOD: the last seventieth seven of Dan.9:27; still yet future to us, and will be fulfilled at the end of this world as the previous periods were.


Dan 9:25-27
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

The above verse describes from 454 B.C. to the time of Christ's crucifixion on the cross, which ended the 69 weeks (first period and second period). The next verse completes this idea about Christ being cut off at the finish of the 69th week, so this 25th verse can be misleading if one does not continue reading...

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

The meaning is Messiah was cut off at the end of the 69th week, not the 70th week. Jesus has nothing to do with the events of the 70th week that are still future to us today, and that final 'week' He actually warned the Church about for the end of this world in His Olivet discourse of Matthew 24 and Mark 13.

That "prince that shall come" who destroyed Jerusalem and the 2nd temple was the Roman general Titus and his army in 70 A.D. Titus represented a 'type' of antichrist.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
KJV

That "he" in verse 27 means we have to go back to the previous verse and pick up last subject person spoken of, and that is that "prince" (commander per Hebrew) the Roman general Titus who destroyed Jerusalem and the 2nd temple in 70 A.D.

However, this final "one week" (70th) is about the final Antichrist that is to come at the end of this world. Titus only served as a little antichrist pattern. The Romans under Titus in 70 A.D. failed to get possession the temple, as it burned down before they could get control of it (per Jewish historian Josephus, circa 100 A.D.).

Thus no placing of an "abomination of desolation" like Jesus warned happened in 70 A.D. The "abomination that maketh desolate" which Jesus quoted from Daniel 11:31 is still yet to happen in a future 3rd Jewish temple to be built in Jerusalem for the end of this world. Today's Orthodox religious Jews in Jerusalem have the stones and materials ready to build their 3rd temple in Jerusalem.

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You have mentioned a very popular theory of the 7 weeks and 62 weeks. But you have them running concurrently with no division of time. If so, why didn't Daniel write 69 weeks ?

Cut-off you are referring to his crucifixion, but it doesnt say that. Im sure a different word would have been used if it meant he was killed, crucified, ect.

And how would you respond to post #8 about troubled time?

 

[DavyP]

The Daniel 9:25-27 events of the 70 weeks prophecy are not that difficult to interpret IF... one stays with what is written there and does not forget other Bible witnesses that cement the timing of those events. And that ends all opinion to it being a theory, or speculation, etc.


Here are some of those other Bible witnesses which confirm those 3 periods I listed in my previous post, especially with the final 3rd Period of the Daniel 9:27 "one week".

Daniel 8:11-14 is another witness to the events at the end of the final "one week" of Dan.9:27. It reveals the ending of the daily sacrifices by the Jews in Jerusalem and in their place the "transgression of desolation", and also the idea of how long the vision and those events would be, and "... the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot" (Dan.8:13).

The answer for how long is given as, "Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed." (Dan.8:14). This event of the cleansing of the sanctuary aligns with the Dan.9:24 final event, "... and to anoint the most holy." That cleansing of the future sanctuary of Zech.6 and its anointing will only occur at Lord Jesus Christ's future return. This means the very end of this 2300 day period is to be placed on the last day of this world, which is when Jesus will return.

[---------------------------Dan.9:27 "one week" (7 years)-----------------------][-Jesus' return]
[----------------1260 days-------------]AOD[---------------1260 days------------][-Jesus' return]
[--------(3rd temple)-----][---------------------2300 days-------------------------][-cleansing of sanctuary]
[-----------------Jew's 3rd temple with daily sacrifice-----------------------]
....................occurs in the first section prior to the 2300 days.
....................Then at the middle of the 7 years,
....................the false-Messiah will end the Jew's
....................temple worship and sacrifices, and
....................will place the AOD IDOL in the temple
...................instead, for the latter half of the 7 years.
...................The "great tribulation" is the latter 1260 day period.

Because that Daniel 8:11-14 period of 2300 days includes the placing of the "abomination that maketh desolate" of Dan.11:31, it beyond all doubt sets the Daniel 9:27 events for the very end of this world, even within the 2300 days prior to the cleansing of the sanctuary at Christ's future return. This is solid per the written Scripture and CANNOT be moved nor toyed with by man.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Because that Daniel 8:11-14 period of 2300 days includes the placing of the "abomination that maketh desolate" of Dan.11:31, it beyond all doubt sets the Daniel 9:27 events for the very end of this world, even within the 2300 days prior to the cleansing of the sanctuary at Christ's future return. This is solid per the written Scripture and CANNOT be moved nor toyed with by man.

The verse in Daniel 8 (about the "2300") does not have the word "days" in the text (in Hebrew), but (if memory serves), "2300 evenings and mornings [H6153 H1242]" (speaking of the individual offerings--2300 of them, total... which amounts to 1150-days'-worth).

-- https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/dan/8/14/ss1/s_858014


The verse in Dan11:31 speaks of the "AOD" in the time of Antiochus Epiphanes (past history)--the "future" aspect of that chpt starts in v.36; whereas the "AOD" in Dan12:11 is the one Jesus was referencing in His Matt24:15,16,20-21 words, which is indeed the "future" one (in the future Trib period leading up to His Second Coming to the earth at Rev19... "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" as Lk12:36,37,38,40 puts it [parallel to Matt24:42-51 of His Olivet Discourse--the Subject Jesus is covering there, in that context (not "our Rapture")])

 

[DavyP]

The Daniel 8:13 phrase, "... to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot," aligns with the Revelation 11:1-2 events in Jerusalem at the end involving the future 3rd temple to be built by the Jews, as they will be the ones that worship inside it.

Rev 11:1-2
11 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, "Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months."
KJV

That 42 months the Gentiles will be given to "tread under foot" is equal to the latter 1260 days half of the Daniel 9:27 symbolic "one week". Per Rev.13:4-8, that 42 months also represents the time the "dragon" (Satan) will be given to reign over all nations and over the saints, at the very end of this world. Thus that Dan.8:13 phrase is another connection to events for the END of this world, and thus shows again the Daniel 9:27 events are for the END also, and were not past history.


The "abomination that maketh desolate":

Per Daniel 11:21, a "vile person" is to appear in Jerusalem and make a "league" with a small group of Jews there, which is what the Dan.9:27 "confirm the covenant" will be about for the end. What that will be about is the re-establishing of a future 3rd temple to be built by the Orthodox Jews in today's Jerusalem, and their starting up the old covenant worship again in Jerusalem. (the Jews in Jerusalem already have the materials ready to start building it, and have been training Levite priests for the temple service).

That "vile person" will be the final Antichrist at the end of this world. He will take the kingdom in Jerusalem, "... he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries." (Dan.11:21) After his power is stirred up, per Dan.11:28, when he returns to his own land, "... his heart shall be against the holy covenant: ...". Because mention of the "holy covenant" is given there, it shows the old covenant worship by the orthodox Jews in Jerusalem will be re-established for the END. Per Dan.11:30, that "vile person" will "... have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant."

At that point is when that "vile person" (Antichrist) will end... the Jew's future daily sacrifices and old covenant worship with their 3rd temple. The "vile person" will instead have an IDOL abomination placed inside the temple for worship instead, which is what the "abomination" below is about, and aligns with the "image of the beast" IDOL that will be setup at the END of this world per the end of Revelation 13...

Dan 11:31
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
KJV

It is the above verse from the Book of Daniel 11:31 that Lord Jesus quoted as warning in His Olivet discourse SIGNS for the END of this world...

Matt 24:15-21
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
KJV

 

[DavyP]

The Daniel 11 Already Past History Theory About Antiochus IV:

Certain doctrines of men try... to make those Daniel 11 events by the "vile person" as already having been fulfilled back in history by Antiochus Epiphanes in 165 B.C.

Per the Jewish historian Josephus, who lived around 100 A.D., he revealed that circa 165 B.C., Antiochus IV took Jerusalem with an army, ended the Jew's daily sacrifices, then he went inside the 2nd temple and sacrificed swine upon the altar, and spread its broth around inside that temple, thus spiritually 'desolating' the temple. Antiochus then setup an altar with an IDOL abomination to the false god Zeus, and demanded that all bow in worship to it.

What Antiochus IV in 165 B.C. did only serves as a 'pattern' type for the placing of the final... "abomination that maketh desolate" event of Daniel 11:31, which Lord Jesus Christ quoted in Matthew 24 and Mark 13. This is very easy... to know that Antiochus only served as a pattern type, simply because Antiochus IV had already been dead about 200 years when Jesus quoted from Daniel 11:31 warning His Church for the end about the "abomination of desolation" idol being setup in the "holy place" (i.e., inside a Jewish temple in Jerusalem).

 

[DavyP]

Another doctrine of men going around about the "abomination of desolation" event for the end of this world, tries to claim that the Roman army in 70 A.D. under general Titus fulfilled it when they definitely did not.

Per the Jewish historian Josephus (100 A.D.), yet again, he revealed that while the Romans were trying to seize control of the 2nd temple in Jerusalem, that temple caught fire inside and burned down. Josephus suggested that the Jews inside the temple fighting the Romans intentionally set a fire inside the temple to keep the Romans from spiritually desolating like Antiochus IV did back in 165 B.C. That makes obvious sense, because the Jews in 70 A.D. Jerusalem would surely recall what Antiochus IV in 165 B.C. had done in that 2nd temple.

What does that mean for the "abomination that maketh desolate" prophecy of Dan.11:31 that Jesus quoted from Daniel? It means the Romans definitely did NOT... fulfill the placing of an IDOL abomination inside that temple in Jerusalem, which is a requirement of the Daniel 11:31 prophecy. And per Jesus quoting that from the Book of Daniel, He even revealed it is about something to be placed in... "the holy place" (Matthew 24:15; Mark 13:14).

 

[GaryA]

I am in agreement that there was no AoD event circa 70 A.D.

 

[GaryA]

The verse in Daniel 8 (about the "2300") does not have the word "days" in the text (in Hebrew), but (if memory serves), "2300 evenings and mornings [H6153 H1242]" (speaking of the individual offerings--2300 of them, total... which amounts to 1150-days'-worth).

Assuming you are correct, without looking it up, the idea here is about time and not offerings. The evening-and-morning is a day, just like in Genesis 1. Therefore, it is 2300 days.

The verse in Dan11:31 speaks of the "AOD" in the time of Antiochus Epiphanes (past history)--the "future" aspect of that chpt starts in v.36; whereas the "AOD" in Dan12:11 is the one Jesus was referencing in His Matt24:15,16,20-21 words, which is indeed the "future" one (in the future Trib period leading up to His Second Coming to the earth at Rev19... "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" as Lk12:36,37,38,40 puts it [parallel to Matt24:42-51 of His Olivet Discourse--the Subject Jesus is covering there, in that context (not "our Rapture")])

Daniel 12:11 is a reference to Daniel 11:31 - which is the one-and-only real-and-true bona fide actual official biblical 'Abomination of Desolation' event that occurred in 167 B.C. - while Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14 are referencing Daniel 11:31. Nowhere in scripture is Daniel 12:11 referenced.

 

[GaryA]

What does that mean for the "abomination that maketh desolate" prophecy of Dan.11:31 that Jesus quoted from Daniel?

The Matthew and Mark accounts do not quote Daniel; rather, they make a reference to something Daniel 'spoke' [about].

This may sound nitpicky - but, it is important to understand the difference between the two.

And, we do not know for sure if what Jesus actually said is more like what is in Matthew and Mark or more like what is in Luke.

I will suggest that it was more like what is in Luke.

I am pretty sure Jesus did not actually say "whoso readeth, let him understand"...

So, it is stretching it a bit to say that Jesus quoted Daniel.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Daniel 12:11 is a reference to Daniel 11:31

Disagree.

One is PAST history (Dan11:31 in 165/167bc); the other is FUTURE [FAR-FUTURE] (Dan12:11) and the one Jesus was referencing specifically (AS "future"--"when ye SHALL SEE [future tense]...")

- which is the one-and-only real-and-true bona fide actual official biblical 'Abomination of Desolation' event that occurred in 167 B.C.

I agree that Dan11:31 speaks of the PAST one (pertaining to "A4E");
But I DISAGREE that Dan12:11 is referring back to the one in 11:31 (as though it were the SAME one being spoken of in 12:11)

- while Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14 are referencing Daniel 11:31.

I disagree, and believe Jesus was referencing the only "AOD" that is "FUTURE" to when He spoke about it.

Nowhere in scripture is Daniel 12:11 referenced.

--Daniel 12:11 is speaking of the "AOD" that Jesus is referring back to, which will take place IN / DURING / WITHIN the "Tribulation Period" (as we call it) which was His SUBJECT in His Olivet Discourse (except for about 12 verses in Lk21 ABOUT THE 70AD events, and a cpl other verses);


--Daniel 12:12 is about (same FAR FUTURE time-frame) when "still-living" [wise / believers] will make it [ALIVE] through the entire Trib years and ENTER the MK age in their mortal bodies, "BLESSED is he that WAITETH and COMETH TO the 1335 days" (same "BLESSED" as in about 8-10 other passages speaking to this SAME MATTER / time-slot [MK-entrance!]);


--Daniel 12:13 is telling about how Daniel (after he will "rest" in death) shall "STAND in thy lot [be resurrected ('to stand again' ON THE EARTH)] at the END OF THE DAYS" (i.e. at the END of the days being referred to IN THAT CONTEXT);


--Daniel 12:1-4,6-7 (esp. v.1) speaking of the SAME thing Jesus spoke of in Matt24:15,21;
and vv.1-4,6-7 speaking of the SAME MATTER that Ezek37:12-14,20-23 / Hos5:14-6:3 / Isa26:13-21,19 / Rom11:15 / etc, ALL speaking about Israel's "FUTURE" and how THEIR "coming up out of the graveyard of nations, WHERE SCATTERED" is LIKENED UNTO a "resurrection"--THAT'S FUTURE: comp. Matt24:29-31 with its parallel Isa27:9,12-13 [corresponding with both Rom11:27 and Dan9:24 (parts)--about Israel's "FUTURE"]);



IOW, none of these matters in Dan12 speak of the PAST (165/167bc) like Dan11:31 WAS speaking about; The "FUTURE" aspects start in Dan11:36 (with its "regime-change" language, as in other verses): compare the wording in vv.36-37 to that found in 2Th2:9-10,4a (about "the man of sin" / AC);

So,

--Dan11:36 START (of 7-yr Trib);

--Dan12:1 MIDDLE (of 7-yr Trib);

--Dan12:12,13 END (of 7-yr Trib)


... JUST LIKE all other RELATED passages show THOSE THREE ASPECTS: a "BEGINNING," a "MIDDLE," and an "END"... to the 7 year period (we commonly call "The Trib")

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

IOW, none of these matters in Dan12 speak of the PAST (165/167bc) like Dan11:31 WAS speaking about;

Let me be clear here; Dan11:31 was "future" to when written (in Daniel); but "PAST" from the time Jesus spoke His words in Matt24:15,21--Jesus was referencing the "FAR-FUTURE" AOD, the one "spoken of by the prophet Daniel" in Dan12:11 (not the one "PAST" to Him/them, in Dan11:31, the one in 165/167bc [and "A4E"]).




[and yes, I do agree with those saying the one in 165/167bc (A4E's) is a "TYPE" of the FAR FUTURE / TRIB one... but 12:11 is LITERALLY speaking of that FAR FUTURE one! Not the PAST one that 11:31 was speaking of]

 

[GaryA]

Not a "TYPE" - the one-and-only real-and-true bona fide actual official biblical 'Abomination of Desolation' - which occurred in 167 B.C.

There never has been and will not be a second one. No AoD circa 70 A.D. No still yet future AoD. Just the one. That is it.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

No AoD circa 70 A.D.

I can AGREE with you on THIS ^ point.

(Because the parts of His Olivet Discourse covering the "70ad events" SAY NOTHING about "AOD"--Lk21:12-24a,b; Matt24:1-2; Mk13:1-2; and Lk21:5-6).


But let me ask you some related questions, @GaryA .



Don't you believe (as I do) that the following verses from Daniel "connect" [/are prophesying of] "far-future" [TRIB] events? :


--Daniel 7:21 "I beheld, and the same horn MADE WAR with the saints, and PREVAILED AGAINST THEM"
*equals* Rev13:[5-]7 "And it was given unto him TO MAKE WAR with the saints, and TO OVERCOME THEM..."


--Daniel 7:22 "...and JUDGMENT WAS GIVEN TO THE SAINTS of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom"
*equals* Rev20:4a "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, AND JUDGMENT WAS GIVEN UNTO THEM: ..."


--Daniel 7:20 "MOUTH speaking GREAT THINGS..."
*equals* Rev13:5[-7] "And there was given unto him a MOUTH speaking GREAT THINGS and blasphemies..." [note the mention here also of "42 months"... a specific time-stamp]


--Daniel 7:25,[27] "...and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of times (parallel wording to that found in the ANSWER to a Q in Dan12... in vv.6-7 "that it shall be for a time, times, and an half")
*equals* Rev12:[6,]14 "for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent" (when there remains 1260 days until Christ's Second Coming to the earth Rev19--For Rev1:1 speaks specifically of "... [to SHEW UNTO...]... things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" --the "SHEW [unto]" part STARTING from 4:1 onward--see that text's specific wording "SHEW you")






These being just a FEW examples... I'm wondering whether you see these (*equal* [wordings]) AS PROPHECIES in Daniel that WILL play out in the "far future" i.e. TRIB years... OR whether you are seeing these words in Daniel as PAST EVENTS (to us) but somehow *LIKE / SIMILAR* to the future trib years (as you say you are understanding Jesus' words in Matt24:15 to be pointing back to "SOMETHING LIKE" [Dan11:31] being what they will "SEE"--and Daniel not actually PROPHESYING of "far future ACTUAL EVENTS" with these "words and phrases" we see "parallel" in Revelation--like the ones I've listed out... if you catch what I'm trying to ask, here You're pretty sharp, so I'm guessing you'll "get" what I'm asking)

 

[GaryA]

I can AGREE with you on THIS ^ point.

(Because the parts of His Olivet Discourse covering the "70ad events" SAY NOTHING about "AOD"--Lk21:12-24a,b; Matt24:1-2; Mk13:1-2; and Lk21:5-6).

Other than the mere mention of the AoD in Matthew 24:15 / Mark 13:14, it is not [specifically] referred to anywhere [else] in the Olivet Discourse. However, those "mere mentions" are intrinsically tied to the 70 A.D. events.

Until you comprehend, discover, realize, understand, accept, and admit that Matthew 24:15-20, Mark 13:14-18, and Luke 21:20-23 are referring to the same exact event(s) - circa 70 A.D. - I do not believe we will be able to have a productive conversation concerning this part of the Olivet Discourse.

Actually, Matthew 24:15-22, Mark 13:14-20, and Luke 21:20-24 cover the 70 A.D. events - and beyond.

Don't you believe (as I do) that the following verses from Daniel "connect" [/are prophesying of] "far-future" [TRIB] events? :

"connect" - sure; "far-future" - nope

of course - all future to Daniel - to us...

--Daniel 7:21 "I beheld, and the same horn MADE WAR with the saints, and PREVAILED AGAINST THEM"
*equals* Rev13:[5-]7 "And it was given unto him TO MAKE WAR with the saints, and TO OVERCOME THEM..."

past - referring to the HRE/RCC during the 1260 years that it "ruled" the earth

--Daniel 7:22 "...and JUDGMENT WAS GIVEN TO THE SAINTS of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom"
*equals* Rev20:4a "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, AND JUDGMENT WAS GIVEN UNTO THEM: ..."

future - after the Second Coming of Christ

--Daniel 7:20 "MOUTH speaking GREAT THINGS..."
*equals* Rev13:5[-7] "And there was given unto him a MOUTH speaking GREAT THINGS and blasphemies..."

past - HRE/RCC

--Daniel 7:25,[27] "...and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of times (parallel wording to that found in the ANSWER to a Q in Dan12... in vv.6-7 "that it shall be for a time, times, and an half")
*equals* Rev12:[6,]14 "for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent" (when there remains 1260 days until Christ's Second Coming to the earth Rev19

I do not see Daniel 12:6-7 as necessarily being the same as the other two places in scripture that you mention here.

Moreover, Revelation 12:6 and Revelation 12:14 are not the same - nor is either one [the] "1260 days until Christ's Second Coming" as you say.

HRE/RCC

--For Rev1:1 speaks specifically of "... [to SHEW UNTO...]... things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" --the "SHEW [unto]" part STARTING from 4:1 onward--see that text's specific wording "SHEW you")

As you are well aware, I do not interpret this the same way as you.

 

[GaryA]

Moreover, Revelation 12:6 and Revelation 12:14 are not the same - nor is either one [the] "1260 days until Christ's Second Coming" as you say.

HRE/RCC

Revelation 12: 6 - circa 70 A.D. and beyond
Revelation 12:14 - HRE/RCC - "dark ages" and beyond

(both past history to us)

 

[DavyP]

Dual Fulfillment of the Daniel 11 "vile person" prophecy, one for Antiochus IV in 165 B.C., and the other for the end of this world by the coming Antichrist.

The difference between that "vile person" prophecy and what Antiochus IV did in 165 B.C. is an important distinction which reveals a dual fulfillment.

Dan 11:21
21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.
KJV

Antiochus IV in 165 B.C. did NOT come to power in Jerusalem using peace and flatteries. Antiochus came to power in Jerusalem using an army, conquering it.

What this means is, if one will carefully study these differences between the Antiochus IV of history, and the actual Daniel 11 prophecy, one will see things in the prophecy that Antiochus did not... fulfill.

When this happens it is a sign of a dual fulfillment type prophecy, meaning not all the parameters of the prophecy are completed until the final fulfillment. In the Daniel 11 case, the final fulfillment of the "vile person" prophecy will be with the future coming false-Messiah/Antichrist for the future time of "great tribulation" which Lord Jesus warned us about.

And the "abomination of desolation" that Lord Jesus warned us about for the future time of "great tribulation" in His Olivet discourse signs, is about this role of the "vile person" who will do the same events prophesied in Daniel 7 about the "little horn" which is to come up among the "ten horns". That Dan.7 "little horn" prophecy is revealed in Daniel 11:36-39 also about the "vile person", linking the two roles for the final fulfillment at the end of this world.

Further, the Daniel 7 "ten horns" and "little horn" prophecy is hard-linked to the "ten horns" and "beast" of Revelation 17 about the end of this world...

Rev 17:12-14
12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for He is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with Him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
KJV

So all together, the Daniel 7 "little horn" and "ten horns" prophecy, Daniel 8 links with the placing of the abomination of desolation, and the "little horn" of that chapter exalting himself, and will represent a "king of fierce countenance", and will destroy many using 'peace' (linked to what the "vile person" in Dan.11:21 does), and craft will prosper by his hand, and shall be destroyed without hand (meaning not by men). All of those ROLES link together in the FINAL Antichrist at the end of this world. Even what that "little horn" does per Daniel 8 is linked to the Antichrist of 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 who will exalt himself as God sitting in the future Jewish 3rd temple in Jerusalem getting ready to be built today, and he will exalt himself over all that is even called... God, or that is worshiped.

Thusly, those Scriptures in Daniel about the "little horn", and "vile person", and "king of fierce countenance", all point to the final Antichrist that is coming to Jerusalem at the end of this world. Jesus warned us about that, so did Apostles Paul in 2 Thess.2, and John in Revelation. So don't allow any man to deceive you about all these Scripture connections in the Book of Daniel about the final Antichrist and the end of this world, as even Daniel 11 about the "vile person" is linked to the "little horn" in both Daniel 7 & 8, and the "beast" king of Revelation 17 for the end.