David and Elhanan Killed Goliath?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
TheAristocat

TheAristocat

Senior Member
Oct 4, 2011
2,150
26
0
So this was an interesting problem that I've done some research on today. I've pretty much arrived at a conclusion - a theory - but nothing unquestionably firm just yet. So I'd like to list the passages in question and turn the problem over to you folks out there. Maybe there is someone out there who has an even better theory.

1 Samuel 17:50 (ASV) So David prevailed over the Philistine with a sling and with a stone, and smote the Philistine, and slew him; but there was no sword in the hand of David.

2 Samuel 21:19 (ASV) And there was again war with the Philistines at Gob; and Elhanan the son of Jaareoregim the Beth-lehemite slew Goliath the Gittite, the staff of whose spear was like a weaver's beam.

2 Samuel 21:19 (KJV) And there was again a battle in Gob with the Philistines, where Elhanan the son of Jaareoregim, a Bethlehemite, slew the brother of Goliath the Gittite, the staff of whose spear was like a weaver's beam.

1 Chronicles 20:5 (ASV) And there was again war with the Philistines; and Elhanan the son of Jair slew Lahmi the brother of Goliath the Gittite, the staff of whose spear was like a weaver's beam.

In the ASV there appears to be a contradiction. That same contradiction doesn't appear in the KJV. Why do you think that is?
 
Continue your research into the meaning of "Five Smooth Stones" ... tell us what you find -- you are onto something ...
 
The NIV has a footnote for 2 SAM 21:19 (see footnote 'c' below) saying the Hebrew does not have 'the brother of'. The NIV for 1 Chr 20:5 does NOT have that footnote.

Relating to the 'five smooth stones', one for each of the deaths of the giants, 2 Samuel seems to lay out the other four with verse 22 summing it up saying:
"These four were descendants of Rapha in Gath, and they fell at the hands of David and his men."
​
Indicating four in addition to Goliath.

The best scholarly answer I came up with is best referenced as a web link, it is not too long but it has the original Hebrew and walks through the explanation with cross references and examples. The link is:

Link -->> “Brother of Goliath” or “Goliath” in 2 Samuel 21:19? - King James Version Today



The verses are posted below for reference:


1 "stone" for Goliath, but there were four more yet to come:

2 SAM 21
(2nd stone)
15 Once again there was a battle between the Philistines and Israel. David went down with his men to fight against the Philistines, and he became exhausted. 16 And Ishbi-Benob, one of the descendants of Rapha, whose bronze spearhead weighed three hundred shekels[a] and who was armed with a new sword, said he would kill David. 17 But Abishai son of Zeruiah came to David’s rescue; he struck the Philistine down and killed him. Then David’s men swore to him, saying, “Never again will you go out with us to battle, so that the lamp of Israel will not be extinguished.”

(3rd stone)

18 In the course of time, there was another battle with the Philistines, at Gob. At that time Sibbekai the Hushathite killed Saph, one of the descendants of Rapha.


(4th stone)

19 In another battle with the Philistines at Gob, Elhanan son of Jair[b] the Bethlehemite killed the brother of[c] Goliath the Gittite, who had a spear with a shaft like a weaver’s rod.


(5th stone)

20 In still another battle, which took place at Gath, there was a huge man with six fingers on each hand and six toes on each foot—twenty-four in all. He also was descended from Rapha. 21 When he taunted Israel, Jonathan son of Shimeah, David’s brother, killed him.
22 These four were descendants of Rapha in Gath, and they fell at the hands of David and his men.
Footnotes:
  1. 2 Samuel 21:16 That is, about 7 1/2 pounds or about 3.5 kilograms
  2. 2 Samuel 21:19 See 1 Chron. 20:5; Hebrew Jaare-Oregim.
  3. 2 Samuel 21:19 See 1 Chron. 20:5; Hebrew does not have the brother of.
 
TheAristocat said:
So this was an interesting problem that I've done some research on today. I've pretty much arrived at a conclusion - a theory - but nothing unquestionably firm just yet. So I'd like to list the passages in question and turn the problem over to you folks out there. Maybe there is someone out there who has an even better theory.

1 Samuel 17:50 (ASV) So David prevailed over the Philistine with a sling and with a stone, and smote the Philistine, and slew him; but there was no sword in the hand of David.

2 Samuel 21:19 (ASV) And there was again war with the Philistines at Gob; and Elhanan the son of Jaareoregim the Beth-lehemite slew Goliath the Gittite, the staff of whose spear was like a weaver's beam.

2 Samuel 21:19 (KJV) And there was again a battle in Gob with the Philistines, where Elhanan the son of Jaareoregim, a Bethlehemite, slew the brother of Goliath the Gittite, the staff of whose spear was like a weaver's beam.

1 Chronicles 20:5 (ASV) And there was again war with the Philistines; and Elhanan the son of Jair slew Lahmi the brother of Goliath the Gittite, the staff of whose spear was like a weaver's beam.

In the ASV there appears to be a contradiction. That same contradiction doesn't appear in the KJV. Why do you think that is?
Click to expand...


Because the King James Bible is right and the new versions are wrong. The words "The brother of" are in italics. And since a lot of the new versions like to take out the itaics, they now have an error and contradiction in this passage. Of course, it could also be due to the corrupt manuscripts such as Vaticanus and Sinaiticus.

What is interesting is that the NIV 2011 decided to correct this error of theirs: Look at the following example:

http://niv.scripturetext.com/2_samuel/21.htmNew International Version (©1984)
In another battle with the Philistines at Gob, Elhanan son of Jaare-Oregim the Bethlehemite killed Goliath the Gittite, who had a spear with a shaft like a weaver's rod.

New International Versions( © 2011 )
In another battle with the Philistines at Gob, Elhanan son of Jair the Bethlehemite killed the brother of Goliath the Gittite, who had a spear with a shaft like a weaver’s rod.


Funny how they will correct this one error, and yet they will not attempt or even try to correct many of their other errors and contradictions.
 
ChosenbyHim said:
Because the King James Bible is right and the new versions are wrong. The words "The brother of" are in italics. And since a lot of the new versions like to take out the itaics, they now have an error and contradiction in this passage. Of course, it could also be due to the corrupt manuscripts such as Vaticanus and Sinaiticus.

What is interesting is that the NIV 2011 decided to correct this error of theirs: Look at the following example:

New International Version (©1984)
In another battle with the Philistines at Gob, Elhanan son of Jaare-Oregim the Bethlehemite killed Goliath the Gittite, who had a spear with a shaft like a weaver's rod.

New International Versions( © 2011 )
In another battle with the Philistines at Gob, Elhanan son of Jair the Bethlehemite killed the brother of Goliath the Gittite, who had a spear with a shaft like a weaver’s rod.


Funny how they will correct this one error, and yet they will not attempt or even try to correct many of their other errors and contradictions.
Click to expand...

Well, I don't place my sole faith in one translation. I like looking at multiple translations to get different perspectives. And the KJV may not even be right on this one. While I agree that Elhanan killed Goliath's brother rather than Goliath I've heard that the word for "brother" in 2 Samuel 21:19 doesn't mean brother and at most means "among" or "with" because it's primarily a direct object indicator. See the verse and notation at this link: 2 Samuel 21:19 NIV - In another battle with the Philistines - Bible Gateway

There it says, "Hebrew does not have the brother of." So for the KJV to translate it as such just indicates that it's deviating from the original text. But to the credit of the NKJV it sets "brother of" off with italics. I do believe it was the brother of Goliath that Elhanan killed, but the text here doesn't say that. In fact the most convincing explanation I've read so far doesn't rely upon there being a scribal error but rather relies upon a Hebrew particle which can be used with a dual meaning.

This particle is said to be "et" which can function as a direct object indicator and as the word "among" at the same time (so it's claimed). So the latter part of the passage, literally translated, would read, "... killed among Goliath [...]"

Working with foreign languages before, I realize that literal translations don't always make a lot of sense, so the KJV and NKJV may have merit for the way they translate the passage. But to me this "among" indicates killing among Goliath's kin/relatives. If you want to take a closer look at this perspective here's the article: “Brother of Goliath” or “Goliath” in 2 Samuel 21:19? - King James Version Today

Let me know what you guys think - especially if you're very familiar with Hebrew or if it's your native language.
 
Last edited:
the apparent contradiction is resolved when you realize that 'goliath' is not a proper name...it is a title or epithet...

the philistines commonly referred to significant people by titles or epithets instead of by their actual names...for example their kings were called 'abimelech' which means 'my father is king'

in hebrew 'goliath' means 'exile'...it is a title or ephithet referring to the fact that these giants were descendants of the anakites who went into exile to philistia after being driven out of hebron and the surrounding towns by joshua and caleb about 400 years earlier...

the giant killed by david and the one killed by elhanan were different people...but they were both 'goliath'...both exiles...

the proper name of the goliath killed by david is never given in the bible... the proper name of the goliath killed by elhanan is not mentioned in the book of samuel...but the book of chronicles includes more detail and gives his proper name and his relation to the more famous goliath killed by david...his real name was lahmi and he was the brother of the goliath killed by david...
 
RachelBibleStudent said:
the apparent contradiction is resolved when you realize that 'goliath' is not a proper name...it is a title or epithet...

the philistines commonly referred to significant people by titles or epithets instead of by their actual names...for example their kings were called 'abimelech' which means 'my father is king'

in hebrew 'goliath' means 'exile'...it is a title or ephithet referring to the fact that these giants were descendants of the anakites who went into exile to philistia after being driven out of hebron and the surrounding towns by joshua and caleb about 400 years earlier...

the giant killed by david and the one killed by elhanan were different people...but they were both 'goliath'...both exiles...

the proper name of the goliath killed by david is never given in the bible... the proper name of the goliath killed by elhanan is not mentioned in the book of samuel...but the book of chronicles includes more detail and gives his proper name and his relation to the more famous goliath killed by david...his real name was lahmi and he was the brother of the goliath killed by david...
Click to expand...

Why does the Blue Letter Bible list the meaning of Goliath as "splendor" too? Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

And what is to be said of 1 Samuel 17:4 and 1 Samuel 17:23?

1 Samuel 17:4 A champion named Goliath, who was from Gath, came out of the Philistine camp. His height was six cubits and a span.

1 Samuel 17:23 Then as he talked with them, there was the champion, the Philistine of Gath, Goliath by name, coming up from the armies of the Philistines; and he spoke according to the same words. So David heard them.

Would saying that Goliath here is a term be akin to saying, "... there was the champion, the Philistine of Gath, [an] exile by name [...]" Calling him a Philistine and an exile is not redundant? Or - "A champion named Exile, who was from Gath [...]"

Maybe the name Goliath is also used as a term for Goliath's brother. But it seems used as a name for Goliath himself.
 
TheAristocat said:
So this was an interesting problem that I've done some research on today. I've pretty much arrived at a conclusion - a theory - but nothing unquestionably firm just yet. So I'd like to list the passages in question and turn the problem over to you folks out there. Maybe there is someone out there who has an even better theory.

1 Samuel 17:50 (ASV) So David prevailed over the Philistine with a sling and with a stone, and smote the Philistine, and slew him; but there was no sword in the hand of David.

2 Samuel 21:19 (ASV) And there was again war with the Philistines at Gob; and Elhanan the son of Jaareoregim the Beth-lehemite slew Goliath the Gittite, the staff of whose spear was like a weaver's beam.

2 Samuel 21:19 (KJV) And there was again a battle in Gob with the Philistines, where Elhanan the son of Jaareoregim, a Bethlehemite, slew the brother of Goliath the Gittite, the staff of whose spear was like a weaver's beam.

1 Chronicles 20:5 (ASV) And there was again war with the Philistines; and Elhanan the son of Jair slew Lahmi the brother of Goliath the Gittite, the staff of whose spear was like a weaver's beam.

In the ASV there appears to be a contradiction. That same contradiction doesn't appear in the KJV. Why do you think that is?
Click to expand...


By Scion of Zion Internet Ministry ​

2 Samuel 21:19​

2 Samuel 21:19

(KJV) And there was again a battle in Gob with the Philistines, where Elhanan the son of Jaareoregim, a Bethlehemite, slew the brother of Goliath the Gittite, the staff of whose spear was like a weaver's beam.

(1611 KJV) And there was againe a battell in Gob, with the Philistines, where Elhanan the sonne of Iaare-Oregim a Bethlehemite, slewe the brother of Goliath the Gittite, the staffe of whose speare was like a weauers beame.

Counterfeit Versions

(NIV) In another battle with the Philistines at Gob, Elhanan son of Jaare-Oregim the Bethlehemite killed Goliath the Gittite, who had a spear with a shaft like a weaver's rod.

(NASV) There was war with the Philistines again at Gob, and Elhanan the son of Jaare-oregim the Bethlehemite killed Goliath the Gittite, the shaft of whose spear was like a weaver's beam.

(THE MESSAGE) At yet another battle with the Philistines at Gob, Elhanan son of Jaar, the weaver of Bethlehem, killed Goliath the Gittite whose spear was as big as a flagpole.

(ESV) And there was again war with the Philistines at Gob, and Elhanan the son of Jaare-oregim, the Bethlehemite, struck down Goliath the Gittite, the shaft of whose spear was like a weaver's beam.

(CEV) There was still another battle with the Philistines at Gob. A soldier named Elhanan killed Goliath from Gath, whose spear shaft was like a weaver's beam. Elhanan's father was Jari from Bethlehem.

(1901 ASV) And there was again war with the Philistines at Gob; and Elhanan the son of Jaareoregim the Beth-lehemite slew Goliath the Gittite, the staff of whose spear was like a weaver's beam.

(HCSB) Once again there was a battle with the Philistines at Gob, and Elhanan son of Jaare-oregim the Bethlehemite killed Goliath the Gittite. The shaft of his spear was like a weaver’s beam.

(RSV) And there was again war with the Philistines at Gob; and Elha'nan the son of Ja'areor'egim, the Bethlehemite, slew Goliath the Gittite, the shaft of whose spear was like a weaver's beam.

(NAB-Roman Catholic) There was another battle with the Philistines in Gob, in which Elhanan, son of Jair from Bethlehem, killed Goliath of Gath, who had a spear with a shaft like a weaver's heddle-bar.

(NWT-Jehovah’s Witnesses) And war arose once again with the Phi·lis´tines at Gob, and El·ha´nan the son of Ja´a·re-or´e·gim the Beth´le·hem·ite got to strike down Go·li´ath the Git´tite, the shaft of whose spear was like the beam of loom workers.

Affected Teaching

This is one of those modern version quagmires which needs very little commentary. The question arises, WHO KILLED GOLIATH?

(1 Sam 17:49 KJV) And David put his hand in his bag, and took thence a stone, and slang it, and smote the Philistine in his forehead, that the stone sunk into his forehead; and he fell upon his face to the earth.

David was the one who killed Goliath as the Scriptures so plainly teach but as we see in the modern versions, they say that Elhanan killed Goliath. How do they arrive at that? In the King James Bible we see the words “the brother of” in italics which gives clear meaning to the verse and causes no confusion but continuity of the Scriptures concerning the death of Goliath‘s brother. The modern version editors did not believe it was necessary to keep these words to allay any confusion. Instead of including them, they omitted them and have caused confusion in the biblical narrative about Goliath and his brother.

Now here is an interesting addition to the confusion that anyone who uses a modern version will encounter. The parallel verse to 2 Samuel 21:19 is 1 Chronicles 20:5 which reads: (1 Chr 20:5 KJV) And there was war again with the Philistines; and Elhanan the son of Jair slew Lahmi the brother of Goliath the Gittite, whose spear staff was like a weaver's beam.

Let’s look at this verse in the modern versions I have mentioned:

(NIV) In another battle with the Philistines, Elhanan son of Jair killed Lahmi the brother of Goliath the Gittite, who had a spear with a shaft like a weaver's rod.

(NASV) And there was war with the Philistines again, and Elhanan the son of Jair killed Lahmi the brother of Goliath the Gittite, the shaft of whose spear was like a weaver's beam.

(THE MESSAGE) In another war with the Philistines, Elhanan son of Jair killed Lahmi, the brother of Goliath the Gittite whose spear was like a ship's boom.

(ESV) And there was again war with the Philistines, and Elhanan the son of Jair struck down Lahmi the brother of Goliath the Gittite, the shaft of whose spear was like a weaver's beam.

(CEV) In another battle against the Philistines, Elhanan the son of Jair killed Lahmi the brother of Goliath from Gath, whose spear shaft was like a weaver's beam.

(1901-ASV) And there was again war with the Philistines; and Elhanan the son of Jair slew Lahmi the brother of Goliath the Gittite, the staff of whose spear was like a weaver's beam.

(HCSB) Once again there was a battle with the Philistines, and Elhanan son of Jair killed Lahmi the brother of Goliath the Gittite. The shaft of his spear was like a weaver's beam.

(RSV) And there was again war with the Philistines; and Elha'nan the son of Ja'ir slew Lahmi the brother of Goliath the Gittite, the shaft of whose spear was like a weaver's beam.

(NAB-ROMAN CATHOLIC) Once again there was war with the Philistines, and Elhanan, the son of Jair, slew Lahmi, the brother of Goliath of Gath, whose spear shaft was like a weaver's heddle-bar.

(NWT-JEHOVAH‘S WITNESSES) And there came to be war again with the Phi·lis´tines; and El·ha´nan the son of Ja´ir got to strike down Lah´mi the brother of Go·li´ath the Git´tite, the shaft of whose spear was like the beam of loom workers.\

Here are two parallel verses referencing the same narrative and both are saying something totally different. In one account, they are saying Elhanan killed Goliath and then in the parallel account, it states that Elhanan killed the brother of Goliath. Well which is it? Can you imagine a new Christian using an NIV or ESV and then comparing the accounts of who Elhanan killed? The King James translators added “the brother of” in the 2 Samuel account so there would be a continuity of truth and no doubt in the reader’s mind as to who killed the brother of Goliath. 　

(2 Sam 21:19 KJV) And there was again a battle in Gob with the Philistines, where Elhanan the son of Jaareoregim, a Bethlehemite, slew the brother of Goliath the Gittite, the staff of whose spear was like a weaver's beam. (1 Chr 20:5 KJV) And there was war again with the Philistines; and Elhanan the son of Jair slew Lahmi the brother of Goliath the Gittite, whose spear staff was like a weaver's beam. When using the King James Bible, there is no question who Elhanan killed. The answer agrees in both accounts thus engendering truth and not contradiction and confusion as in the modern versions. Once again the superiority of the King James Bible shines through.
 
TheAristocat said:
Why does the Blue Letter Bible list the meaning of Goliath as "splendor" too? Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

And what is to be said of 1 Samuel 17:4 and 1 Samuel 17:23?

1 Samuel 17:4 A champion named Goliath, who was from Gath, came out of the Philistine camp. His height was six cubits and a span.

1 Samuel 17:23 Then as he talked with them, there was the champion, the Philistine of Gath, Goliath by name, coming up from the armies of the Philistines; and he spoke according to the same words. So David heard them.

Would saying that Goliath here is a term be akin to saying, "... there was the champion, the Philistine of Gath, [an] exile by name [...]" Calling him a Philistine and an exile is not redundant? Or - "A champion named Exile, who was from Gath [...]"

Maybe the name Goliath is also used as a term for Goliath's brother. But it seems used as a name for Goliath himself.
Click to expand...

i don't use the blue letter bible myself... i have no idea where they would have gotten that definition... strong's definition and the definition in the brown driver briggs hebrew lexicon both agree with my definition...

the hebrew word for 'name' in those two passages has a wider definition than just proper names...it can also refer to character or position of authority... for example the same word is used in genesis 11:4...

it would be fair to translate those phrases from first samuel as...'a champion known as an exile' and 'the philistine of gath, an exile as he was known'...or something similar to that...

one thing i am sure of is that the approach taken by king james' translators and their modern worshippers...namely to -add to- scripture to resolve the apparent contradiction...is the wrong approach to take...
 
We also have to by tradition in this case. We do have the Tanakh, of course, but words do sometimes change meaning through the centuries, and we also have lost fragments, and no translation is 100% correct. I say this simply because original understanding was not incorporated into the specific translation. And now our understanding is somewhat changed, also. Example: "I like to go to Pastor Joe's church because he is so cool'"

By words alone according to Webster, cool is almost cold. According to the bible, we are not to let our faith grow cold. Conclusion: by word meanings alone Pastor Joe is becoming cold so we should keep away from him lest he lead us astray and we, too, become cold in our faith.

Tradition has held that David killed Goliath. How far back does this tradition go? Was it said in David's time that he killed Goliath? The closer to the actual event the tradition started, the closer to the truth we come.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom
Back