Deep Theology
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I won't go into detail here. There's really a scope for theological "depths", if one wants to delve in such, about the nature of God's love/wrath toward men, as you probably know. The main point with these scriptures I gave is to show that Jacob signifies the elect, the church, the people of God, whereas Esau signifies the reprobates, the world or babylon. Most real realities. In fact in John 3 it goes on from verse 16 landing in verse 36 where it says that the wrath of God abides on those who do not believe the Son. Without gospel atonement men are doomed, now and forever. That's what all folks need to deal with.
E
I agree. But I also know that "God so loved the world" he gave his life for them. Gods wrath should be against all men. No one is deserving of Gods love, The only thing which keeps those of us who are Christ's is his death and payment in full for our sin. Without this, Gods wrath would be poured out on us also.
remember a few things. God tells us to love our enemy. He owuld be a hypocrite if he did not do the same.
also. Love has many facets. You can love someone and try to save them, even if you do not know them (it does not mean they will accept your love and help) and you can love someone intimately, which comes form having a relationship with them.
God loves all men the first way. The second way can only happen with a personal relationship between both parties. (which means they have accepted his love and his help)
the first love is a lesser love because their is no relationship.
God loved esau, he even died for them. But he loved jacob more because he had a relationship with them which was personal.
a way to say this in hebrew, is God loved jacob, but hated esau. even though the term "hate" as we know it. never came into play, he loved esau less, because esau rejected his love, and thus there could never be a relationship.
remember a few things. God tells us to love our enemy. He owuld be a hypocrite if he did not do the same.
also. Love has many facets. You can love someone and try to save them, even if you do not know them (it does not mean they will accept your love and help) and you can love someone intimately, which comes form having a relationship with them.
God loves all men the first way. The second way can only happen with a personal relationship between both parties. (which means they have accepted his love and his help)
the first love is a lesser love because their is no relationship.
God loved esau, he even died for them. But he loved jacob more because he had a relationship with them which was personal.
a way to say this in hebrew, is God loved jacob, but hated esau. even though the term "hate" as we know it. never came into play, he loved esau less, because esau rejected his love, and thus there could never be a relationship.
Esaus' Nature speaks of All of us, before Gods' Grace in our lives.
The firstborn.....Adam
Hairy.......Beastial
Red or Ruddy.......Blood, earthly, carnal
Hunter of the field........Worldly
Dispised his birthright........Adam
Which all these things represent the old nature, the firstborn
that has to die.
I love the part of the story where you see Rebekah clothe Jacob with
Esaus' garments, .....I see our Lord being clothed with our old nature
and nailing him to the cross.
Garments always speaks of Idenitity.
Blessings
The firstborn.....Adam
Hairy.......Beastial
Red or Ruddy.......Blood, earthly, carnal
Hunter of the field........Worldly
Dispised his birthright........Adam
Which all these things represent the old nature, the firstborn
that has to die.
I love the part of the story where you see Rebekah clothe Jacob with
Esaus' garments, .....I see our Lord being clothed with our old nature
and nailing him to the cross.
Garments always speaks of Idenitity.
Blessings
E
God will not quicken anyone before a person decides to come to him. The HS was sent to convict (show truth) to all men. Not all men will listen however. Those who listen and place their trust in him (faith) will be saved, and through this they will be made alive.
No one is made alive until sin is removed. Until then, they remain dead to Christ.
F
He truly hated him. Whom the Lord loves he chastens. If he chastens all those that he loves, then we would have to assume that if he does not chasten a person, then he does not love them. Ps 73:5, They are not plagued (divinily punished) as others. Job 21:9, Their houses are safe from fear, neither is the rod of God upon them.
E
I hate to say this my friend. But you do not know God very well. God paid for their sin, They threw it back in face, yes. But he still loved them enough to pay their sin debt.
They will be judged not because God did not love them. they will be judged because Gods justice demands payment, And they rejected his payment.
Gods love did not save us. His love provided a way for his justice to be satisfied. thats all.
They will be judged not because God did not love them. they will be judged because Gods justice demands payment, And they rejected his payment.
Gods love did not save us. His love provided a way for his justice to be satisfied. thats all.
F
First of all, I'm glade you consider me as your friend. Christ's crucifiction on the cross was for God's acceptance and not for man's acceptance. Christ did not shed his blood in vain. All that he died for, he will not lose one of them, but raise them up at the last day John 6:37-40. God does not call all mankind, but only his elect and he calls all of them. They are predestinated, called, justified and glorified Rom 8:30. It appears that you do not know God very well. Christ paid the price that was demanded for all that he died for, which was not for all mankind.
E
First off. All of God's people are our friends.
Second off. God died for all. He not only propitiated our sin, but the sin of the whole world. Satans lie from the beginning is that God is not a God of love. The heresy that God died for only some and not others is just not true. It is his reputation that is called to question. What a greater love that God died for all, even those who reject his love and gift. Who could ever deny his love? Not Satan (the accuser) or anyone else.
Scripture (even Christ himself) said he was sent to the whole world, That whoever (not all will do this) believes in him will be given eternal life. It dies nit say he died for the elect that they will be given eternal life. we would have to twist Christ's word to think that he only died for some.
Those verses you gave are great, but you left the most important word out. All those things are based on God's foreknowledge. You see out God is not like the pgan Gods out there. he knows all things. David said that God knew him (intimately) before he was in the womb, he knew everything david would think say and do. God is that way with all of us. He knows who will recieve his gift. what it will take to get that person to repent, and who will not repent no matter what is done.
We also live in Satan's domain. Enemy territory. God will do whatever it takes to go after those he declared will accept him, and call them (rescue them) to him. This is predestination. Jesus determined before time began he would come and die on the cross. God knew who would recieve his gift before time began. And he predetermined based on this knowledge who would be saved, and who would not. Based on his nature. and based on Christ's willingness to come and die in our place. and his knowledge of who would receive, and who would reject.
Second off. God died for all. He not only propitiated our sin, but the sin of the whole world. Satans lie from the beginning is that God is not a God of love. The heresy that God died for only some and not others is just not true. It is his reputation that is called to question. What a greater love that God died for all, even those who reject his love and gift. Who could ever deny his love? Not Satan (the accuser) or anyone else.
Scripture (even Christ himself) said he was sent to the whole world, That whoever (not all will do this) believes in him will be given eternal life. It dies nit say he died for the elect that they will be given eternal life. we would have to twist Christ's word to think that he only died for some.
Those verses you gave are great, but you left the most important word out. All those things are based on God's foreknowledge. You see out God is not like the pgan Gods out there. he knows all things. David said that God knew him (intimately) before he was in the womb, he knew everything david would think say and do. God is that way with all of us. He knows who will recieve his gift. what it will take to get that person to repent, and who will not repent no matter what is done.
We also live in Satan's domain. Enemy territory. God will do whatever it takes to go after those he declared will accept him, and call them (rescue them) to him. This is predestination. Jesus determined before time began he would come and die on the cross. God knew who would recieve his gift before time began. And he predetermined based on this knowledge who would be saved, and who would not. Based on his nature. and based on Christ's willingness to come and die in our place. and his knowledge of who would receive, and who would reject.
The word hate is also found in the translation from the greek text. Both hebrew and greek words often have variations of their meaning. There is a reason why Bible scholars have translated these hebrew (Strong's H8101).and greek (Strong's G3404) words to "hate" in the english tongue. All words must have clear implications and make sense for the reader. We are, as said, not to speculate much about the nature of God's love/wrath, of which both are real. But we have to discern the scriptures as to get their message.
Does it makes sense to say:
The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou loveth less all workers of iniquity. Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will love less the bloody and deceitful man.
Do not I love them less, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee? I love them less with perfect loving less I count them mine enemies.
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the lesser love of God abideth on him.
Thou hast loved righteousness, and loved less iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I love less.
What about the people who are in hell, are they just "loved less" by God? Loved?? He surely has a funny way of showing it, wouldn't you say?
I think it better then to lovingly warn people of that terrible end that awaits the unrepentant wicked, instead of somehow making them feeeel OK, with empty words about a love that makes not much sense for them.
Does it makes sense to say:
The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou loveth less all workers of iniquity. Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will love less the bloody and deceitful man.
Do not I love them less, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee? I love them less with perfect loving less I count them mine enemies.
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the lesser love of God abideth on him.
Thou hast loved righteousness, and loved less iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I love less.
What about the people who are in hell, are they just "loved less" by God? Loved?? He surely has a funny way of showing it, wouldn't you say?
I think it better then to lovingly warn people of that terrible end that awaits the unrepentant wicked, instead of somehow making them feeeel OK, with empty words about a love that makes not much sense for them.