In your own mind you might think you have countered the huge amounts of scripture placed before you. But I can assure you, not according to the Holy Spirit
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In your own mind you might think you have countered the huge amounts of scripture placed before you. But I can assure you, not according to the Holy Spirit
“As in the days when you came out of Egypt,
I will show them my wonders.”
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Nations will see and be ashamed,
deprived of all their power.
They will put their hands over their mouths
and their ears will become deaf.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]They will lick dust like a snake,
like creatures that crawl on the ground.
They will come trembling out of their dens;
they will turn in fear to the Lord our God
and will be afraid of you.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Who is a God like you,
who pardons sin and forgives the transgression
of the remnant of his inheritance?
You do not stay angry forever
but delight to show mercy.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]You will again have compassion on us;
you will tread our sins underfoot
and hurl all our iniquities into the depths of the sea.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]You will be faithful to Jacob,
and show love to Abraham,
as you pledged on oath to our ancestors
in days long ago.
Micah 7:15-20
I will show them my wonders.”
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Nations will see and be ashamed,
deprived of all their power.
They will put their hands over their mouths
and their ears will become deaf.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]They will lick dust like a snake,
like creatures that crawl on the ground.
They will come trembling out of their dens;
they will turn in fear to the Lord our God
and will be afraid of you.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Who is a God like you,
who pardons sin and forgives the transgression
of the remnant of his inheritance?
You do not stay angry forever
but delight to show mercy.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]You will again have compassion on us;
you will tread our sins underfoot
and hurl all our iniquities into the depths of the sea.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]You will be faithful to Jacob,
and show love to Abraham,
as you pledged on oath to our ancestors
in days long ago.
Micah 7:15-20
This is what the Lord says:
“In the time of my favor I will answer you,
and in the day of salvation I will help you;
I will keep you and will make you
to be a covenant for the people,
to restore the land
and to reassign its desolate inheritances,
[SUP]9 [/SUP]to say to the captives, ‘Come out,’
and to those in darkness, ‘Be free!’
“They will feed beside the roads
and find pasture on every barren hill.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]They will neither hunger nor thirst,
nor will the desert heat or the sun beat down on them.
He who has compassion on them will guide them
and lead them beside springs of water.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]I will turn all my mountains into roads,
and my highways will be raised up.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]See, they will come from afar—
some from the north, some from the west,
some from the region of Aswan.[SUP][b][/SUP]”
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Shout for joy, you heavens;
rejoice, you earth;
burst into song, you mountains!
For the Lord comforts his people
and will have compassion on his afflicted ones.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]But Zion said, “The Lord has forsaken me,
the Lord has forgotten me.”
[SUP]15 [/SUP]“Can a mother forget the baby at her breast
and have no compassion on the child she has borne?
Though she may forget,
I will not forget you!
[SUP]16 [/SUP]See, I have engraved you on the palms of my hands;
your walls are ever before me.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Your children hasten back,
and those who laid you waste depart from you.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Lift up your eyes and look around;
all your children gather and come to you.
As surely as I live,” declares the Lord,
“you will wear them all as ornaments;
you will put them on, like a bride.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]“Though you were ruined and made desolate
and your land laid waste,
now you will be too small for your people,
and those who devoured you will be far away.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]The children born during your bereavement
will yet say in your hearing,
‘This place is too small for us;
give us more space to live in.’
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Then you will say in your heart,
‘Who bore me these?
I was bereaved and barren;
I was exiled and rejected.
Who brought these up?
I was left all alone,
but these—where have they come from?’”
[SUP]22 [/SUP]This is what the Sovereign Lord says:
“See, I will beckon to the nations,
I will lift up my banner to the peoples;
they will bring your sons in their arms
and carry your daughters on their hips.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Kings will be your foster fathers,
and their queens your nursing mothers.
They will bow down before you with their faces to the ground;
they will lick the dust at your feet.
Then you will know that I am the Lord;
those who hope in me will not be disappointed.”
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Can plunder be taken from warriors,
or captives be rescued from the fierce[SUP][c][/SUP]?
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But this is what the Lord says:
“Yes, captives will be taken from warriors,
and plunder retrieved from the fierce;
I will contend with those who contend with you,
and your children I will save.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]I will make your oppressors eat their own flesh;
they will be drunk on their own blood, as with wine.
Then all mankind will know
that I, the Lord, am your Savior,
your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.”
Isaiah 49:8-26
“In the time of my favor I will answer you,
and in the day of salvation I will help you;
I will keep you and will make you
to be a covenant for the people,
to restore the land
and to reassign its desolate inheritances,
[SUP]9 [/SUP]to say to the captives, ‘Come out,’
and to those in darkness, ‘Be free!’
“They will feed beside the roads
and find pasture on every barren hill.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]They will neither hunger nor thirst,
nor will the desert heat or the sun beat down on them.
He who has compassion on them will guide them
and lead them beside springs of water.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]I will turn all my mountains into roads,
and my highways will be raised up.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]See, they will come from afar—
some from the north, some from the west,
some from the region of Aswan.[SUP][b][/SUP]”
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Shout for joy, you heavens;
rejoice, you earth;
burst into song, you mountains!
For the Lord comforts his people
and will have compassion on his afflicted ones.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]But Zion said, “The Lord has forsaken me,
the Lord has forgotten me.”
[SUP]15 [/SUP]“Can a mother forget the baby at her breast
and have no compassion on the child she has borne?
Though she may forget,
I will not forget you!
[SUP]16 [/SUP]See, I have engraved you on the palms of my hands;
your walls are ever before me.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Your children hasten back,
and those who laid you waste depart from you.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Lift up your eyes and look around;
all your children gather and come to you.
As surely as I live,” declares the Lord,
“you will wear them all as ornaments;
you will put them on, like a bride.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]“Though you were ruined and made desolate
and your land laid waste,
now you will be too small for your people,
and those who devoured you will be far away.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]The children born during your bereavement
will yet say in your hearing,
‘This place is too small for us;
give us more space to live in.’
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Then you will say in your heart,
‘Who bore me these?
I was bereaved and barren;
I was exiled and rejected.
Who brought these up?
I was left all alone,
but these—where have they come from?’”
[SUP]22 [/SUP]This is what the Sovereign Lord says:
“See, I will beckon to the nations,
I will lift up my banner to the peoples;
they will bring your sons in their arms
and carry your daughters on their hips.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Kings will be your foster fathers,
and their queens your nursing mothers.
They will bow down before you with their faces to the ground;
they will lick the dust at your feet.
Then you will know that I am the Lord;
those who hope in me will not be disappointed.”
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Can plunder be taken from warriors,
or captives be rescued from the fierce[SUP][c][/SUP]?
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But this is what the Lord says:
“Yes, captives will be taken from warriors,
and plunder retrieved from the fierce;
I will contend with those who contend with you,
and your children I will save.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]I will make your oppressors eat their own flesh;
they will be drunk on their own blood, as with wine.
Then all mankind will know
that I, the Lord, am your Savior,
your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.”
Isaiah 49:8-26
I will make known my holy name among my people Israel. I will no longer let my holy name be profaned, and the nations will know that I the Lord am the Holy One in Israel. [SUP]8 [/SUP]It is coming! It will surely take place, declares the Sovereign Lord. This is the day I have spoken of.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]“‘Then those who live in the towns of Israel will go out and use the weapons for fuel and burn them up—the small and large shields, the bows and arrows,the war clubs and spears. For seven years they will use them for fuel. [SUP]10 [/SUP]They will not need to gather wood from the fields or cut it from the forests, because they will use the weapons for fuel. And they will plunder those who plundered them and loot those who looted them, declares the Sovereign Lord.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]“‘On that day I will give Gog a burial place in Israel, in the valley of those who travel east of the Sea. It will block the way of travelers, because Gog and all his hordes will be buried there. So it will be called the Valley of Hamon Gog.[SUP][b][/SUP]
[SUP]12 [/SUP]“‘For seven months the Israelites will be burying them in order to cleanse the land. [SUP]13 [/SUP]All the people of the land will bury them, and the day I display my glorywill be a memorable day for them, declares the Sovereign Lord. [SUP]14 [/SUP]People will be continually employed in cleansing the land. They will spread out across the land and, along with others, they will bury any bodies that are lying on the ground.
“‘After the seven months they will carry out a more detailed search. [SUP]15 [/SUP]As they go through the land, anyone who sees a human bone will leave a marker beside it until the gravediggers bury it in the Valley of Hamon Gog, [SUP]16 [/SUP]near a town called Hamonah.[SUP][c][/SUP] And so they will cleanse the land.’
[SUP]17 [/SUP]“Son of man, this is what the Sovereign Lord says: Call out to every kind of bird and all the wild animals: ‘Assemble and come together from all around to the sacrifice I am preparing for you, the great sacrifice on the mountains of Israel. There you will eat flesh and drink blood. [SUP]18 [/SUP]You will eat the flesh of mighty men and drink the blood of the princes of the earth as if they were rams and lambs, goats and bulls—all of them fattened animals from Bashan.[SUP]19 [/SUP]At the sacrifice I am preparing for you, you will eat fat till you are glutted and drink blood till you are drunk. [SUP]20 [/SUP]At my table you will eat your fill of horses and riders, mighty men and soldiers of every kind,’ declares the Sovereign Lord.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]“I will display my glory among the nations, and all the nations will see the punishment I inflict and the hand I lay on them. [SUP]22 [/SUP]From that day forward the people of Israel will know that I am the Lord their God. [SUP]23 [/SUP]And the nations will know that the people of Israel went into exile for their sin, because they were unfaithful to me. So I hid my face from them and handed them over to their enemies, and they all fell by the sword. [SUP]24 [/SUP]I dealt with them according to their uncleanness and their offenses, and I hid my face from them.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]“Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will now restore the fortunes of Jacob[SUP][d][/SUP] and will have compassion on all the people of Israel, and I will be zealous for my holy name. [SUP]26 [/SUP]They will forget their shame and all the unfaithfulness they showed toward me when they lived in safety in their land with no one to make them afraid. [SUP]27 [/SUP]When I have brought them back from the nations and have gathered them from the countries of their enemies, I will be proved holy through them in the sight of many nations. [SUP]28 [/SUP]Then they will know that I am the Lord their God, for though I sent them into exile among the nations, I will gather them to their own land, not leaving any behind. [SUP]29 [/SUP]I will no longer hide my face from them, for I will pour out my Spirit on the people of Israel, declares the Sovereign Lord.”
Ezekiel 39:7-29
[SUP]9 [/SUP]“‘Then those who live in the towns of Israel will go out and use the weapons for fuel and burn them up—the small and large shields, the bows and arrows,the war clubs and spears. For seven years they will use them for fuel. [SUP]10 [/SUP]They will not need to gather wood from the fields or cut it from the forests, because they will use the weapons for fuel. And they will plunder those who plundered them and loot those who looted them, declares the Sovereign Lord.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]“‘On that day I will give Gog a burial place in Israel, in the valley of those who travel east of the Sea. It will block the way of travelers, because Gog and all his hordes will be buried there. So it will be called the Valley of Hamon Gog.[SUP][b][/SUP]
[SUP]12 [/SUP]“‘For seven months the Israelites will be burying them in order to cleanse the land. [SUP]13 [/SUP]All the people of the land will bury them, and the day I display my glorywill be a memorable day for them, declares the Sovereign Lord. [SUP]14 [/SUP]People will be continually employed in cleansing the land. They will spread out across the land and, along with others, they will bury any bodies that are lying on the ground.
“‘After the seven months they will carry out a more detailed search. [SUP]15 [/SUP]As they go through the land, anyone who sees a human bone will leave a marker beside it until the gravediggers bury it in the Valley of Hamon Gog, [SUP]16 [/SUP]near a town called Hamonah.[SUP][c][/SUP] And so they will cleanse the land.’
[SUP]17 [/SUP]“Son of man, this is what the Sovereign Lord says: Call out to every kind of bird and all the wild animals: ‘Assemble and come together from all around to the sacrifice I am preparing for you, the great sacrifice on the mountains of Israel. There you will eat flesh and drink blood. [SUP]18 [/SUP]You will eat the flesh of mighty men and drink the blood of the princes of the earth as if they were rams and lambs, goats and bulls—all of them fattened animals from Bashan.[SUP]19 [/SUP]At the sacrifice I am preparing for you, you will eat fat till you are glutted and drink blood till you are drunk. [SUP]20 [/SUP]At my table you will eat your fill of horses and riders, mighty men and soldiers of every kind,’ declares the Sovereign Lord.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]“I will display my glory among the nations, and all the nations will see the punishment I inflict and the hand I lay on them. [SUP]22 [/SUP]From that day forward the people of Israel will know that I am the Lord their God. [SUP]23 [/SUP]And the nations will know that the people of Israel went into exile for their sin, because they were unfaithful to me. So I hid my face from them and handed them over to their enemies, and they all fell by the sword. [SUP]24 [/SUP]I dealt with them according to their uncleanness and their offenses, and I hid my face from them.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]“Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will now restore the fortunes of Jacob[SUP][d][/SUP] and will have compassion on all the people of Israel, and I will be zealous for my holy name. [SUP]26 [/SUP]They will forget their shame and all the unfaithfulness they showed toward me when they lived in safety in their land with no one to make them afraid. [SUP]27 [/SUP]When I have brought them back from the nations and have gathered them from the countries of their enemies, I will be proved holy through them in the sight of many nations. [SUP]28 [/SUP]Then they will know that I am the Lord their God, for though I sent them into exile among the nations, I will gather them to their own land, not leaving any behind. [SUP]29 [/SUP]I will no longer hide my face from them, for I will pour out my Spirit on the people of Israel, declares the Sovereign Lord.”
Ezekiel 39:7-29
J
JesusistheChrist
Guest
Friend, the Holy Spirit isn't leading you in the least bit in that He is the Spirit of truth and you're in great error. So, you want me to counter the scriptures that you've placed before me? How about if I just explain them to you since you obviously don't know what they say? For example, you placed this before me (and I couldn't possibly thank you more for doing the same):In your own mind you might think you have countered the huge amounts of scripture placed before you. But I can assure you, not according to the Holy Spirit
You placed this long passage from Isaiah 49:8-26 before me WHILE CONVENIENTLY IGNORING THE VERSES WHICH IMMEDIATELY PRECEDE IT and therefore you either honestly don't even know what it says or you're deliberately out to deceive God's people (not on my watch, friend). Here's what you omitted:michael56 said:This is what the Lord says:
“In the time of my favor I will answer you,
and in the day of salvation I will help you;
I will keep you and will make you
to be a covenant for the people,
to restore the land
and to reassign its desolate inheritances,
[SUP]9 [/SUP]to say to the captives, ‘Come out,’
and to those in darkness, ‘Be free!’
“They will feed beside the roads
and find pasture on every barren hill.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]They will neither hunger nor thirst,
nor will the desert heat or the sun beat down on them.
He who has compassion on them will guide them
and lead them beside springs of water.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]I will turn all my mountains into roads,
and my highways will be raised up.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]See, they will come from afar—
some from the north, some from the west,
some from the region of Aswan.[SUP][b][/SUP]”
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Shout for joy, you heavens;
rejoice, you earth;
burst into song, you mountains!
For the Lord comforts his people
and will have compassion on his afflicted ones.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]But Zion said, “The Lord has forsaken me,
the Lord has forgotten me.”
[SUP]15 [/SUP]“Can a mother forget the baby at her breast
and have no compassion on the child she has borne?
Though she may forget,
I will not forget you!
[SUP]16 [/SUP]See, I have engraved you on the palms of my hands;
your walls are ever before me.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Your children hasten back,
and those who laid you waste depart from you.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Lift up your eyes and look around;
all your children gather and come to you.
As surely as I live,” declares the Lord,
“you will wear them all as ornaments;
you will put them on, like a bride.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]“Though you were ruined and made desolate
and your land laid waste,
now you will be too small for your people,
and those who devoured you will be far away.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]The children born during your bereavement
will yet say in your hearing,
‘This place is too small for us;
give us more space to live in.’
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Then you will say in your heart,
‘Who bore me these?
I was bereaved and barren;
I was exiled and rejected.
Who brought these up?
I was left all alone,
but these—where have they come from?’”
[SUP]22 [/SUP]This is what the Sovereign Lord says:
“See, I will beckon to the nations,
I will lift up my banner to the peoples;
they will bring your sons in their arms
and carry your daughters on their hips.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Kings will be your foster fathers,
and their queens your nursing mothers.
They will bow down before you with their faces to the ground;
they will lick the dust at your feet.
Then you will know that I am the Lord;
those who hope in me will not be disappointed.”
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Can plunder be taken from warriors,
or captives be rescued from the fierce[SUP][c][/SUP]?
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But this is what the Lord says:
“Yes, captives will be taken from warriors,
and plunder retrieved from the fierce;
I will contend with those who contend with you,
and your children I will save.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]I will make your oppressors eat their own flesh;
they will be drunk on their own blood, as with wine.
Then all mankind will know
that I, the Lord, am your Savior,
your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.”
Isaiah 49:8-26
Isaiah chapter 49
[1] Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.
[2] And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;
[3] And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.
[4] Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the LORD, and my work with my God.
[5] And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength.
[6] And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
[7] Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.
Anybody who hasn't cemented their own eyes shut will notice that there are TWO TOTALLY DIFFERENT "ISRAELS" here:
1. The "Israel in whom God will be glorified" (vs. 3)
2. The "Israel which shall not be gathered" while the other "Israel" is still found to be "glorious in the eyes of the LORD" (vs. 5)
Who, then, is this first "Israel"?
Well, there's really no need to guess if we just follow the identifiers.
For starters, this first "Israel" was "called from the womb" and "from the bowels of His mother God has made mention of His name" (vs. 1). Well, that sounds an awful lot like JESUS CHRIST, doesn't it? Sure, it does:
Matthew chapter 1
[20] But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
[21] And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
[22] Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
[23] Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
This first "Israel" also has a "mouth like a sharp sword" (vs. 2). Well, that sounds an awful lot like JESUS CHRIST, too, doesn't it? Sure, it does:
"And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength." (Revelation 1:16)
"And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;" (Revelation 2:12)
"Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth." (Revelation 2:16)
"And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God." (Revelation 19:15)
"And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh." (Revelation 19:21)
This first "Israel" was also given "to raise up the tribes of Jacob and to restore the preserved of Israel" and also given as "a light to the Gentiles that He might be God's salvation to the end of the earth" (vs. 6). Well, that sounds an awful lot like JESUS CHRIST also, doesn't it? Sure, it does.
Yes, this first "Israel" is none other than Jesus Christ...AND HE IS HEARD LAMENTING ABOUT ANOTHER "ISRAEL" WHICH REFUSES TO BE GATHERED. Yes, in verse 4, He says:
"I have labored in vain, I have spent my strength for nought".
Again, in verse 5, He says:
"THOUGH ISRAEL BE NOT GATHERED, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD".
Yes, in verse 5, the first "Israel", JESUS CHRIST, is heard lamenting how the second "Israel", natural Israel, will "be not gathered" in that many of the natural born Israelites were going to reject their own Messiah, Jesus Christ. Again, in verse 6, He makes a distinction between "the preserved of Israel" who will be "restored" or between THE REMNANT OF BELIEVING JEWS as opposed to the majority of unbelieving Jews who were going to reject Him.
That's REALITY, friend, and you can either embrace the same or continue on in your error.
It's your choice...with either rewards or consequences attached to the same.
D
DesiredHaven
Guest
Heres a few scriptures showing Christ and Israel here, for example if you start here as well, where Joseph departs INTO Egypt
Mat 2:14 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed -INTO- Egypt:
And stayed there UNTIL that it might be fulfilled what was spoken of in Hosea 11:1
Mat 2:15 And was there until the death of Herod: that -it might be- fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, -OUT OF- Egypt have I called my son.
(Referencing this back here)
Hosea 11:1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son -OUT OF- Egypt.
So that it might be fulfilled in respects to his (Israel's) departure here
Mat 2:19 But when Herod was dead, behold, an angel of the Lord appeareth in a dream to Joseph IN Egypt, Saying, Arise,and take the young child and his mother, and -GO INTO- the land of Israel: for they are dead which sought the young child's life.
All of which was determined before to be done
Acts 4:26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined -before- to be done.
Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Romans 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Romans 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Luke 24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you
Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
And what makes one Christ's?
Romans 8:9 ...Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Just figured I would add to this
Mat 2:14 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed -INTO- Egypt:
And stayed there UNTIL that it might be fulfilled what was spoken of in Hosea 11:1
Mat 2:15 And was there until the death of Herod: that -it might be- fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, -OUT OF- Egypt have I called my son.
(Referencing this back here)
Hosea 11:1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son -OUT OF- Egypt.
So that it might be fulfilled in respects to his (Israel's) departure here
Mat 2:19 But when Herod was dead, behold, an angel of the Lord appeareth in a dream to Joseph IN Egypt, Saying, Arise,and take the young child and his mother, and -GO INTO- the land of Israel: for they are dead which sought the young child's life.
All of which was determined before to be done
Acts 4:26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined -before- to be done.
Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Romans 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Romans 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Luke 24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you
Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
And what makes one Christ's?
Romans 8:9 ...Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Just figured I would add to this
J
JesusistheChrist
Guest
Thanks.Heres a few scriptures showing Christ and Israel here, for example if you start here as well, where Joseph departs INTO Egypt
Mat 2:14 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed -INTO- Egypt:
And stayed there UNTIL that it might be fulfilled what was spoken of in Hosea 11:1
Mat 2:15 And was there until the death of Herod: that -it might be- fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, -OUT OF- Egypt have I called my son.
(Referencing this back here)
Hosea 11:1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son -OUT OF- Egypt.
So that it might be fulfilled in respects to his (Israel's) departure here
Mat 2:19 But when Herod was dead, behold, an angel of the Lord appeareth in a dream to Joseph IN Egypt, Saying, Arise,and take the young child and his mother, and -GO INTO- the land of Israel: for they are dead which sought the young child's life.
All of which was determined before to be done
Acts 4:26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined -before- to be done.
Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Romans 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Romans 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Luke 24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you
Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
And what makes one Christ's?
Romans 8:9 ...Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Just figured I would add to this
I'm hoping to even further document from scripture how that Christ is the True Israel and how natural Israel was originally called to represent Him and how, for the most part, they miserably failed at the same. I'm trying not to get ahead of myself, though, in that a lot of people (and I'm not referring to you) just pull verses totally out of their context, even as michael56 did in relation to Isaiah chapter 49, and I'm trying to offset the same by giving an overview of God's plan of salvation beginning with "before the foundation of the world" and then continuing forward from there. So far, in the little bit that I've covered in relation to both "before the foundation of the world" and up until the time of Adam and Eve, natural Israel isn't even on the scene yet and won't even appear for close to another 2,000 years. IOW, I'm trying to counter this whole "replacement theology" or "supersessionism" NONSENSE in that CHRIST AND THE CHURCH CAME FIRST and therefore natural Israel couldn't possibly have been either "replaced" or "superseded". In fact, IT'S THE EXACT OPPOSITE. IOW, the real teachers of "replacement theology" or "supersessionism" are those who would seek to dupe us into believing that God's plan of salvation somehow centers around natural Israel WHEN IT DOES NOT. Whether anybody likes it or not, the Bible teaches from cover to cover that when everything is said and done there will be a lot more Gentiles saved than there will be natural born Jews saved. Granted, I take no pleasure in saying that and I'm doing all that I can to reach Jews with the gospel myself, but that's simply the way that it is.
D
DesiredHaven
Guest
Thanks.
I'm hoping to even further document from scripture how that Christ is the True Israel and how natural Israel was originally called to represent Him and how, for the most part, they miserably failed at the same. I'm trying not to get ahead of myself, though, in that a lot of people (and I'm not referring to you) just pull verses totally out of their context, even as michael56 did in relation to Isaiah chapter 49, and I'm trying to offset the same by giving an overview of God's plan of salvation beginning with "before the foundation of the world" and then continuing forward from there. So far, in the little bit that I've covered in relation to both "before the foundation of the world" and up until the time of Adam and Eve, natural Israel isn't even on the scene yet and won't even appear for close to another 2,000 years. IOW, I'm trying to counter this whole "replacement theology" or "supersessionism" NONSENSE in that CHRIST AND THE CHURCH CAME FIRST and therefore natural Israel couldn't possibly have been either "replaced" or "superseded". In fact, IT'S THE EXACT OPPOSITE. IOW, the real teachers of "replacement theology" or "supersessionism" are those who would seek to dupe us into believing that God's plan of salvation somehow centers around natural Israel WHEN IT DOES NOT. Whether anybody likes it or not, the Bible teaches from cover to cover that when everything is said and done there will be a lot more Gentiles saved than there will be natural born Jews saved. Granted, I take no pleasure in saying that and I'm doing all that I can to reach Jews with the gospel myself, but that's simply the way that it is.
Im not familar with all the teachings out there on the same but I like that you take it from the top and follow through on the verses as you do, that is very helpful.
S
Sophia
Guest
If you remember the Scripture about 2 Jerusalems, one above and one below,So the following refers to Gentile Christians?
his is what the Lord Almighty says: “I will save my people from the countries of the east and the west.[SUP]8 [/SUP]I will bring them back to live in Jerusalem; they will be my people, and I will be faithful and righteous to them as their God Zech 8:7&8
Also
But now I will not deal with the remnant of this people as I did in the past,” declares the LordAlmighty.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]“The seed will grow well, the vine will yield its fruit, the ground will produce its crops, and the heavens will drop their dew. I will give all these things as an inheritance to the remnant of this people. [SUP]13 [/SUP]Just as you, Judah and Israel, have been a curse[SUP][a][/SUP] among the nations, so I will save you, and you will be a blessing.[SUP][b][/SUP] Do not be afraid, but let your hands be strong
Zech 8:11-13
Also
I will strengthen Judah
and save the tribes of Joseph.
I will restore them
because I have compassion on them.
They will be as though
I had not rejected them,
for I am the Lord their God
and I will answer them.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]The Ephraimites will become like warriors,
and their hearts will be glad as with wine.
Their children will see it and be joyful;
their hearts will rejoice in the Lord.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]I will signal for them
and gather them in.
Surely I will redeem them;
they will be as numerous as before.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Though I scatter them among the peoples,
yet in distant lands they will remember me.
They and their children will survive,
and they will return.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]I will bring them back from Egypt
and gather them from Assyria.
I will bring them to Gilead and Lebanon,
and there will not be room enough for them.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]They will pass through the sea of trouble;
the surging sea will be subdued
and all the depths of the Nile will dry up.
Assyria’s pride will be brought down
and Egypt’s scepter will pass away.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]I will strengthen them in the Lord
and in his name they will live securely,”
declares the Lord. Zech 10:6-12
All of the above scripture refers to Gentile Christians in your view?
I will post much more as you respond
and remember that the Word of Christ has also been dispersed to all nations,
then it can be seen that Zechariah was being shown evidence of the "mystery" of Christ and His dispensing of grace.
God will gather all of His elect to the New Jerusalem.
Remember that His Children, both born Jew and Gentile, are called lost sheep, and are called to return to the fold. His sheep hear His voice.
The call to "return" is given to all who were chosen before the foundations of the earth.
S
Sophia
Guest
For your own encouragement and edification, try to read this with the New Covenant and the New Jerusalem as the focus.This is what the Lord says:
“In the time of my favor I will answer you,
and in the day of salvation I will help you;
I will keep you and will make you
to be a covenant for the people,
to restore the land
and to reassign its desolate inheritances,
[SUP]9 [/SUP]to say to the captives, ‘Come out,’
and to those in darkness, ‘Be free!’
“They will feed beside the roads
and find pasture on every barren hill.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]They will neither hunger nor thirst,
nor will the desert heat or the sun beat down on them.
He who has compassion on them will guide them
and lead them beside springs of water.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]I will turn all my mountains into roads,
and my highways will be raised up.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]See, they will come from afar—
some from the north, some from the west,
some from the region of Aswan.[SUP][b][/SUP]”
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Shout for joy, you heavens;
rejoice, you earth;
burst into song, you mountains!
For the Lord comforts his people
and will have compassion on his afflicted ones.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]But Zion said, “The Lord has forsaken me,
the Lord has forgotten me.”
[SUP]15 [/SUP]“Can a mother forget the baby at her breast
and have no compassion on the child she has borne?
Though she may forget,
I will not forget you!
[SUP]16 [/SUP]See, I have engraved you on the palms of my hands;
your walls are ever before me.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Your children hasten back,
and those who laid you waste depart from you.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Lift up your eyes and look around;
all your children gather and come to you.
As surely as I live,” declares the Lord,
“you will wear them all as ornaments;
you will put them on, like a bride.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]“Though you were ruined and made desolate
and your land laid waste,
now you will be too small for your people,
and those who devoured you will be far away.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]The children born during your bereavement
will yet say in your hearing,
‘This place is too small for us;
give us more space to live in.’
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Then you will say in your heart,
‘Who bore me these?
I was bereaved and barren;
I was exiled and rejected.
Who brought these up?
I was left all alone,
but these—where have they come from?’”
[SUP]22 [/SUP]This is what the Sovereign Lord says:
“See, I will beckon to the nations,
I will lift up my banner to the peoples;
they will bring your sons in their arms
and carry your daughters on their hips.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Kings will be your foster fathers,
and their queens your nursing mothers.
They will bow down before you with their faces to the ground;
they will lick the dust at your feet.
Then you will know that I am the Lord;
those who hope in me will not be disappointed.”
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Can plunder be taken from warriors,
or captives be rescued from the fierce[SUP][c][/SUP]?
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But this is what the Lord says:
“Yes, captives will be taken from warriors,
and plunder retrieved from the fierce;
I will contend with those who contend with you,
and your children I will save.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]I will make your oppressors eat their own flesh;
they will be drunk on their own blood, as with wine.
Then all mankind will know
that I, the Lord, am your Savior,
your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.”
Isaiah 49:8-26
Remember that these things were "veiled" even to the Prophets before the unveiling of Christ, and Him tearing the veil.
The teachings were always present, but also hidden by the physical things. Soon the physical will be taken away entirely, when the Revelation(revealing) of Christ is made full at His Return.
I don't agree that "Dispensationalism is heresy", but more that it has a wrong focus, and is missing out on some blessings and encouragement due to that rejection.
If you truly believe the Word given to the Apostles, that all Scripture points to Christ, then in looking for Christ in the OT prophecies, and looking for His Body and His Promised Kingdom,
rather than a people of earth, and a kingdom of earth,
you will find blessing and clarity in the Word given to the Prophets.
We are not engrafted into a secondary Israel, but into the real thing.
Christ was before physical Israel, as in the beginning He was the Word,
and His Salvation was made know before physical Israel, as the patriarchs preceeded the nation,
and the election of those predestined was before any physical birth, as it occurred before the foundations of the earth.
The promise made to our mother, Sarah, is given to us,
and the promise made to our father, Abraham, is given to us.
The same heart that was in David is given to us: the heart of God.
Even Abraham looked for a land better than Canaan, or he would not have left,
but he looked for the land of which we also look.
encouraging tidbit: (for the remnant)(for everyone and anyone Yahweh choses to show mercy to)
".......9 I will perform miracles in the sky above
and signs on the earth below —
blood, fire and thick smoke.
20 The sun will become dark
and the moon blood
before the great and fearful Day of Adonai comes.
21 And then, whoever calls on the name of Adonai will be saved.”’[a]
".......9 I will perform miracles in the sky above
and signs on the earth below —
blood, fire and thick smoke.
20 The sun will become dark
and the moon blood
before the great and fearful Day of Adonai comes.
21 And then, whoever calls on the name of Adonai will be saved.”’[a]
S
Sophia
Guest
We don't have to read and interpret the Scriptures through the eyes of those who received the Oracles, because we are told that they were blinded to them when they were given.
The Light has come, and we can read under that Light, rather than in the darkness of former days.
That is why the strict "historical" hermeneutic is so unspiritual. It has benefits to our edification, and to study it for a time is good,
but not for the sake of understanding and growing in Grace, only in knowledge.
We must read the OT through the eyes and mind of Christ, given to us.
The Light has come, and we can read under that Light, rather than in the darkness of former days.
That is why the strict "historical" hermeneutic is so unspiritual. It has benefits to our edification, and to study it for a time is good,
but not for the sake of understanding and growing in Grace, only in knowledge.
We must read the OT through the eyes and mind of Christ, given to us.
Friend, the Holy Spirit isn't leading you in the least bit in that He is the Spirit of truth and you're in great error. So, you want me to counter the scriptures that you've placed before me? How about if I just explain them to you since you obviously don't know what they say? For example, you placed this before me (and I couldn't possibly thank you more for doing the same):
You placed this long passage from Isaiah 49:8-26 before me WHILE CONVENIENTLY IGNORING THE VERSES WHICH IMMEDIATELY PRECEDE IT and therefore you either honestly don't even know what it says or you're deliberately out to deceive God's people (not on my watch, friend). Here's what you omitted:
Isaiah chapter 49
[1] Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.
[2] And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;
[3] And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.
[4] Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the LORD, and my work with my God.
[5] And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength.
[6] And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
[7] Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.
Anybody who hasn't cemented their own eyes shut will notice that there are TWO TOTALLY DIFFERENT "ISRAELS" here:
1. The "Israel in whom God will be glorified" (vs. 3)
2. The "Israel which shall not be gathered" while the other "Israel" is still found to be "glorious in the eyes of the LORD" (vs. 5)
Who, then, is this first "Israel"?
Well, there's really no need to guess if we just follow the identifiers.
For starters, this first "Israel" was "called from the womb" and "from the bowels of His mother God has made mention of His name" (vs. 1). Well, that sounds an awful lot like JESUS CHRIST, doesn't it? Sure, it does:
Matthew chapter 1
[20] But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
[21] And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
[22] Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
[23] Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
This first "Israel" also has a "mouth like a sharp sword" (vs. 2). Well, that sounds an awful lot like JESUS CHRIST, too, doesn't it? Sure, it does:
"And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength." (Revelation 1:16)
"And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;" (Revelation 2:12)
"Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth." (Revelation 2:16)
"And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God." (Revelation 19:15)
"And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh." (Revelation 19:21)
This first "Israel" was also given "to raise up the tribes of Jacob and to restore the preserved of Israel" and also given as "a light to the Gentiles that He might be God's salvation to the end of the earth" (vs. 6). Well, that sounds an awful lot like JESUS CHRIST also, doesn't it? Sure, it does.
Yes, this first "Israel" is none other than Jesus Christ...AND HE IS HEARD LAMENTING ABOUT ANOTHER "ISRAEL" WHICH REFUSES TO BE GATHERED. Yes, in verse 4, He says:
"I have labored in vain, I have spent my strength for nought".
Again, in verse 5, He says:
"THOUGH ISRAEL BE NOT GATHERED, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD".
Yes, in verse 5, the first "Israel", JESUS CHRIST, is heard lamenting how the second "Israel", natural Israel, will "be not gathered" in that many of the natural born Israelites were going to reject their own Messiah, Jesus Christ. Again, in verse 6, He makes a distinction between "the preserved of Israel" who will be "restored" or between THE REMNANT OF BELIEVING JEWS as opposed to the majority of unbelieving Jews who were going to reject Him.
That's REALITY, friend, and you can either embrace the same or continue on in your error.
It's your choice...with either rewards or consequences attached to the same.
The only way anyone could try and theologise away such huge swathes of plain scripture is with that natural mind. What does Paul say concerning this?
Do not deceive yourselves. If any of you think you are wise by the standards of this age, you should become “fools” so that you may become wise. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight. As it is written: “He catches the wise in their craftiness”[SUP][a][/SUP]; [SUP]20 [/SUP]and again, “The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile. 1Cor 3:18-20
All those prophecies said the time would come when God would return the exiles to their homeland. In 1948 the Israeli nation was born. The natural mind looks to human reasoning as to why that happened.
But then, as most refused to accept Christ and the prophecies concerning him, so some sadly refuse to accept the huge swathes of prophecies concerning Israel once again being a nation in their own land.
For your own encouragement and edification, try to read this with the New Covenant and the New Jerusalem as the focus.
Remember that these things were "veiled" even to the Prophets before the unveiling of Christ, and Him tearing the veil.
The teachings were always present, but also hidden by the physical things. Soon the physical will be taken away entirely, when the Revelation(revealing) of Christ is made full at His Return.
I don't agree that "Dispensationalism is heresy", but more that it has a wrong focus, and is missing out on some blessings and encouragement due to that rejection.
If you truly believe the Word given to the Apostles, that all Scripture points to Christ, then in looking for Christ in the OT prophecies, and looking for His Body and His Promised Kingdom,
rather than a people of earth, and a kingdom of earth,
you will find blessing and clarity in the Word given to the Prophets.
We are not engrafted into a secondary Israel, but into the real thing.
Christ was before physical Israel, as in the beginning He was the Word,
and His Salvation was made know before physical Israel, as the patriarchs preceeded the nation,
and the election of those predestined was before any physical birth, as it occurred before the foundations of the earth.
The promise made to our mother, Sarah, is given to us,
and the promise made to our father, Abraham, is given to us.
The same heart that was in David is given to us: the heart of God.
Even Abraham looked for a land better than Canaan, or he would not have left,
but he looked for the land of which we also look.
How true the following is:
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do. Luke 10:21
The only way anyone could try and theologise away such huge swathes of plain scripture is with that natural mind. What does Paul say concerning this?
Do not deceive yourselves. If any of you think you are wise by the standards of this age, you should become “fools” so that you may become wise.[SUP]19 [/SUP]For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight. As it is written: “He catches the wise in their craftiness”[SUP][a][/SUP];[SUP]20 [/SUP]and again, “The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile. 1Cor 3:18-20
All those prophecies said the time would come when God would return the exiles to their homeland. In 1948 the Israeli nation was born. The natural mind looks to human reasoning as to why that happened.
But then, as most refused to accept Christ and the prophecies concerning him, so some sadly refuse to accept the huge swathes of prophecies concerning Israel once again being a nation in their own land.
Once again, the difference of view here is not ''spiritual Israel''/righteousness by faith in Christ rather than law, or one of two Jerusalems. It is simply whether biblical prophecies state God's sovereign plan is to turn all the physical Jews to accept Christ(grace) at a time in the future. It has nothing to do with accepting the new covenant, for if God opens their eyes to accept Christ, they will all accept it from the least to the greatest.
The only way anyone could try and theologise away such huge swathes of plain scripture is with that natural mind. What does Paul say concerning this?
Do not deceive yourselves. If any of you think you are wise by the standards of this age, you should become “fools” so that you may become wise.[SUP]19 [/SUP]For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight. As it is written: “He catches the wise in their craftiness”[SUP][a][/SUP];[SUP]20 [/SUP]and again, “The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile. 1Cor 3:18-20
All those prophecies said the time would come when God would return the exiles to their homeland. In 1948 the Israeli nation was born. The natural mind looks to human reasoning as to why that happened.
But then, as most refused to accept Christ and the prophecies concerning him, so some sadly refuse to accept the huge swathes of prophecies concerning Israel once again being a nation in their own land.
The days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them,
declares the Lord.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”
Heb 8:8-12
Who did not remain faithful to the old covenant? The same people who eventually will ALL know God from the least to the greatest.
We don't have to read and interpret the Scriptures through the eyes of those who received the Oracles, because we are told that they were blinded to them when they were given.
The Light has come, and we can read under that Light, rather than in the darkness of former days.
That is why the strict "historical" hermeneutic is so unspiritual. It has benefits to our edification, and to study it for a time is good,
but not for the sake of understanding and growing in Grace, only in knowledge.
We must read the OT through the eyes and mind of Christ, given to us.
Do prophets of God prophecy what God tells them to prophecy? If they do, do prophecies that come from the Holy Spirits leading come to pass or not?
Does the Holy Spirit lead people to not accept the leading he gave to the prophets of God to write down prophecy that came from Him?
We don't have to read and interpret the Scriptures through the eyes of those who received the Oracles, because we are told that they were blinded to them when they were given.
The Light has come, and we can read under that Light, rather than in the darkness of former days.
That is why the strict "historical" hermeneutic is so unspiritual. It has benefits to our edification, and to study it for a time is good,
but not for the sake of understanding and growing in Grace, only in knowledge.
We must read the OT through the eyes and mind of Christ, given to us.
The human mind can study much. For many they have no more pleasurable pastime, they revel in it. However, the Holy Spirit will not contradict himself, only the mind of man can do that. And only the Holy Spirit can lead into spiritual truth, not the studying of man reliant on himself to learn
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Sophia
Guest
That's what I was trying to explain. If Christ used these Scriptures to refer to the New things, then the New things alone are what the Oracles of the OT are truly about.The human mind can study much. For many they have no more pleasurable pastime, they revel in it. However, the Holy Spirit will not contradict himself, only the mind of man can do that. And only the Holy Spirit can lead into spiritual truth, not the studying of man reliant on himself to learn
If we use them to mean things for physical Israel, then the New Covenant could never have applied to anyone but those born of the 12 Tribes. (As the passage is directed only to Judah and Israel, not to the world)
If we use them to mean things for physical Israel, then Christ was not the one prophecied in Hosea as coming out of Egypt. (As the passage is directed at Israel, not mentioning the Messiah as the fulfillment)
If we use them to mean things for physical Israel, then Christ would have commanded all Gentiles to make pilgrimage to physical Jerusalem. (As the verse references Jerusalem, not seeking the Kingdom)
The hope of Israel was never supposed to be for physical things. The Apostles tell us that their hope in physical things is what led them astray, an why they were cut off; and turning their mind to a spiritual hope brings them (all of us) back to True Israel, which is Christ.
You seem to think that "scholarly mind" brings us to spiritualizing the OT. This is not the case. The scholarly mind brings people to take the OT physically (Letter, literal),
but the Spirit bring us to recognize the spiritual nature of the OT. It was never supposed to be physical, or interpreted physically.
A physical prophecy to a physical nation is not the Gospel, and yet the NT tells us that ALL Scriptures point to Christ.
If your interpretation points to physical things, then it is not pointing to Christ, but to physical Israel, rather than True Israel.
Please, at least attempt to see Christ in those prophecies of Israel.
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Sophia
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Posting prophecies directed at "Israel" doesn't help your case.
Understanding what Israel is, and who receives the Promises, is why we disagree about each of their meanings.
You have to prove that these cannot reference Christ and His Body and His Kingdom and the New Jerusalem and True Israel; because there are those born of physical Israel, and also those who BELONG to Israel.
The Church is in dispersion. Scattered across the world in time and space. Christ is Coming back to gather His Church together, and ushering in a New Jerusalem to restore what Jerusalem was named to be.
Understanding what Israel is, and who receives the Promises, is why we disagree about each of their meanings.
You have to prove that these cannot reference Christ and His Body and His Kingdom and the New Jerusalem and True Israel; because there are those born of physical Israel, and also those who BELONG to Israel.
The Church is in dispersion. Scattered across the world in time and space. Christ is Coming back to gather His Church together, and ushering in a New Jerusalem to restore what Jerusalem was named to be.