Did He, Or Didn't He?

[eternally-gratefull]

Faith and Deeds
JAMES 2


14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds?
Can such faith save them?


15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” (THE COMMAND TO LOVE THY NEIGHBOR) but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it?
17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.


18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”


Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.

19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.


20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?


21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?


22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.


23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend.


24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.


26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

faith produces works, because people are fully assured of the person they trust (true meaning of faith)

If a person comes to your church, and claims to have faith, but never does anything but live like the world. You can rest assured, That persons faith is dead. and he is most likely not saved, never had been, You can learn to give him the gospel message, because that is what he needs And james would be a great book to start..

for a person who claims to have faith, But you see the love of Gd in him as he serves others (works) you can know. That guy is most likely saved, And james was not talking to that person. Because they have works that those who have true faith will have.

What james is not saying, is a person must be saved by works, and thus could lose salvation.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Does anyone disagree with this scripture? James chapter 2

I ask this because I want to make sure we are not all just arguing semantics here.

we all agree.

I just think we interpret it differently

The legalist say it proves you can lose salvation

the gracist say it is a confrontation of people in the church who claim to have faith, but are hearers of the word not doers.. Who still live like the world Who have no fruit. Most likely, because they have never been saved, They believe, well thats good. even demons believe, but belief is not enough to save you.

 

[Grace777x70]

I agree...James is simply saying that there will always be a corresponding action to what we believe. The demons believe in God but they do not believe in redemption because that is not for them as it is for us. There is no word from God to supply faith to demons for salvation as there is for us.

A "work" is a response to the word of God to us. I noticed that every one of James examples of a 'work" being done in chapter 2 - it is a one time happening..

Abraham offered Isaac up "once" in response to God's word to him ( this is a great example of listening to the now word proceeding out of God's mouth or Abraham would have continued to slay his son - if he didn't listen to what God was telling him now..not the old word from God )...

Rahab herself was justified by receiving the messengers and sending them away safe...this is a one time event.

The chapter 1 and 2 in James is talking about showing your faith by corresponding action/response in helping out our brothers that need things like food and clothing. James 2:14-17

This book of James has nothing to do with being justified by the blood of Jesus for salvation/redemption which is by grace through faith alone as you have pointed out in Eph. 2:8-9

Romans 10:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

we all agree.

I just think we interpret it differently

The legalist say it proves you can lose salvation

the gracist say it is a confrontation of people in the church who claim to have faith, but are hearers of the word not doers.. Who still live like the world Who have no fruit. Most likely, because they have never been saved, They believe, well thats good. even demons believe, but belief is not enough to save you.

 

[FreeNChrist]

Colossians 2:13

"When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins"

 

[FreeNChrist]

No, because the blood, which is proof of his death, abides in heaven.

The efficacy of Christ's blood lies not in some property of the blood itself, but in the fact that Christ shed it in death, and His death was the price that had to be paid in order to redeem us. It is not the actual liquid that cleanses us from our sins, but the work of redemption Christ accomplished in pouring it out.

 

[PeterJens]

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:7-9

Christ did enough to save us. But like any person if you do not get in the bath to wash inside and out, you will still be unclean.

We are purified, but we have to choose to take captive our thoughts and deeds and turn them to the glory of Christ.

What you will here is those who feel this or that makes you right or wrong, when it is simple, walk in purity.
We are made righteous through our faith, and we walk in fellowship with God by obedience to the Spirit and His commands.

But it is us who have to do the walking, obeying, thinking, actions. They will not just happen by themselves like magic.
This is why young christians often fall away, because the words need to be put into action to bring about the fruit that confirms the faith held.

 

[FreeNChrist]

"Walk", in scripture, refers to our life and how we live it. How we live as Christians is by faith in Jesus Christ, who is the Light. We walk in total dependence upon Him, being receptive to His activity, abiding in Him. It is no longer we who live but Christ living in and through us. Through that connection with Christ, He produces His good fruit in and through us, and it draws us into fellowship with others who have the same connection, and we all share in the cleansing of sin that Christ has provided by His finished work on the cross.

 

[Budman]

It's simple. If we are trying to retain our salvation in any way through our good works, those works are just as filthy to God as those of an unbeliever who is trying to earn his way to heaven.

If a Christian's good works are "evidence" of their salvation, what does a believer do that an unbeliever cannot?

An unbeliever can feed the homeless, read the Bible, go to church, give to charity, love their neighbors, etc.

If anyone believes works are needed to retain their salvation, then here's God's standard; absolute perfection - in thought, word, and deed. Either we are made perfect through Christ, or you make yourself perfect - you can't have it both ways.

If we are indeed made perfect through Christ, what works could possibly be needed to retain salvation?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:7-9

Christ did enough to save us. But like any person if you do not get in the bath to wash inside and out, you will still be unclean.

Then he did not do enough to save you, You have to save yourself by cleaninng yourself out.

God says different.

John 13:10
Jesus said to him, “He who is bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.”

John 15:3
You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.

Ephesians 5:26
that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word,

Titus 3:5
not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

Don't sit there and claim to not teach works, When you continually preach them, You can not wash yourself. As all these passages and many many others say, it is God who washes you. You are washed by the blood of the lamb.

We are purified, but we have to choose to take captive our thoughts and deeds and turn them to the glory of Christ.

so we are purified but we are not. That makes no sense, we are either pure, righteous, are we are impure sinners There is no inbetween state

What you will here is those who feel this or that makes you right or wrong, when it is simple, walk in purity.
We are made righteous through our faith, and we walk in fellowship with God by obedience to the Spirit and His commands.

But it is us who have to do the walking, obeying, thinking, actions. They will not just happen by themselves like magic.
This is why young christians often fall away, because the words need to be put into action to bring about the fruit that confirms the faith held.

Christians fall away because of people like you. They (you) place burdens on them no one can handle or fulfill. they can nlt fathom why they still struggle wiht certain sins, They are afraid to go get help. Because we do not confess our sins,, (you proved that yesterday) so we are left to our own vice, to use our own power to break our sin, and when we find out we can not do it. We give up. and walk away.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It's simple. If we are trying to retain our salvation in any way through our good works, those works are just as filthy to God as those of an unbeliever who is trying to earn his way to heaven.

If a Christian's good works are "evidence" of their salvation, what does a believer do that an unbeliever cannot?

An unbeliever can feed the homeless, read the Bible, go to church, give to charity, love their neighbors, etc.

If anyone believes works are needed to retain their salvation, then here's God's standard; absolute perfection - in thought, word, and deed. Either we are made perfect through Christ, or you make yourself perfect - you can't have it both ways.

If we are indeed made perfect through Christ, what works could possibly be needed to retain salvation?

to a proud religious do gooder. who thinks he is righteous. Those words are meaningless.

You hit the nail on the head, Non believers can do works, Paul even said it, the gentiles do not have the law by nature do the law

So works prove nothing, (except to ourselves)

what makes me more righteous or less righteous that the athiest who is feeding the poor, giving to all kinds of charity, staying faithful to his wife. Never says a bad word about anyone, Loves people..

in the same token, what makes me think I am more righteous that Hitler.. I have siinned and fall short of the glory of God also.. I have my own sin which must be purged,, I am no better than anyone else when left standing on my own, I am GUILTY!

 

[p_rehbein]

If God is telling you that He will remember your sins no more and no more sacrifice for sins is necessary, why are you confessing sins in order to obtain forgiveness already granted through Jesus' sacrifice? This isn't an anti-confession stance, but a stance against making Jesus' blood common, or trampling underfoot the Son of God.

If Jesus died for all our sins, then what has been taken care of needs no more sacrifice. Sin confession is equivalent to going back to the temple sacrifices for forgiveness of sins, it is attempting to find forgiveness outside of the simplicity of the Gospel. Faith in Jesus Christ.

This isn't a matter of doubt, or a lack of faith but rather a lack of revelation of what Jesus truly accomplished through His death and resurrection. Sin confession for forgiveness makes void the cross, and religiously puts a barrier in between God and man when Christ has made reconciliation already. This doctrine of sin confession is at odds with the Gospel.

Hmm, lots of people confuse this issue, and, in my opinion, they are doing so dangerously. Usually it is the once saved - always saved crowd.

As for trampling the blood of Christ, or His work on the cross thing goes, IF once we come to Christ, and then, as human beings are prone to do.............and MESS UP..........WE STILL must repent of that sinful action..........IT IS NOT crucifying Christ anew/again..........His blood is FOREVER..........it is simply recognizing when we mess up, confessing to God we messed up, and repenting, and BEING ASSURED His precious blood will ALWAYS be there to atone for our mess ups.

People simply confuse this issue waaaaayyyyyy too much. As for those who BELIEVE one can sin, sin, and sin again AFTER their Salvation, and NEVER have to worry about it.............well, I suggest they invest in some serious tanning cream.

 

[FreeNChrist]

Hmm, lots of people confuse this issue, and, in my opinion, they are doing so dangerously. Usually it is the once saved - always saved crowd.

As for trampling the blood of Christ, or His work on the cross thing goes, IF once we come to Christ, and then, as human beings are prone to do.............and MESS UP..........WE STILL must repent of that sinful action..........IT IS NOT crucifying Christ anew/again..........His blood is FOREVER..........it is simply recognizing when we mess up, confessing to God we messed up, and repenting, and BEING ASSURED His precious blood will ALWAYS be there to atone for our mess ups.

People simply confuse this issue waaaaayyyyyy too much. As for those who BELIEVE one can sin, sin, and sin again AFTER their Salvation, and NEVER have to worry about it.............well, I suggest they invest in some serious tanning cream.

Yes. We see your confusion.

 

[p_rehbein]

It's simple. If we are trying to retain our salvation in any way through our good works, those works are just as filthy to God as those of an unbeliever who is trying to earn his way to heaven.

If a Christian's good works are "evidence" of their salvation, what does a believer do that an unbeliever cannot?

An unbeliever can feed the homeless, read the Bible, go to church, give to charity, love their neighbors, etc.

If anyone believes works are needed to retain their salvation, then here's God's standard; absolute perfection - in thought, word, and deed. Either we are made perfect through Christ, or you make yourself perfect - you can't have it both ways.

If we are indeed made perfect through Christ, what works could possibly be needed to retain salvation?

You and Christ and GOD differ greatly on this point. You want to keep saying "good works" do not save us.......WELL YEAH, EVERYONE KNOWS THAT..........however, when you say that "good works" are not required of us BY GOD, you are dangerously mistaken..........and you are not alone in this......and it is a sad thing.

 

[Grace777x70]

I hear ya'...

I believe a lot of sincere believers have left the church ( not Jesus ) because they could not live this religious Christian life that was being preached to them. They loved Jesus but they didn't want to be a hypocrite so they backed away from the organized church.

Then there is the group that struggled with a certain sin and was never taught about grace properly and so they left because they were defeated. Constantly feeling condemned and guilty and full of shame. The legalists keep preaching at them to change!

The only change that is effective is from the life of Jesus in us and that only comes with the message of the gospel of the grace of Christ.

They (you) place burdens on them no one can handle or fulfill. they can not fathom why they still struggle with certain sins, We give up. and walk away.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

It's simple. If we are trying to retain our salvation in any way through our good works, those works are just as filthy to God as those of an unbeliever who is trying to earn his way to heaven.

If a Christian's good works are "evidence" of their salvation, what does a believer do that an unbeliever cannot?

An unbeliever can feed the homeless, read the Bible, go to church, give to charity, love their neighbors, etc.

If anyone believes works are needed to retain their salvation, then here's God's standard; absolute perfection - in thought, word, and deed. Either we are made perfect through Christ, or you make yourself perfect - you can't have it both ways.

If we are indeed made perfect through Christ, what works could possibly be needed to retain salvation?

Good works involve more than doing good to other people; they also mean abstaining from sin and separating from evil. In the latter sense, those who think that good works aren't required are simply delusional. They have been snared by the devil.

Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been revealed. We know that whenever he is revealed we will be like him, because we will see him just as he is. And everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as that one is pure. 1 John 3:2-3​

 

[Grace777x70]

Good works flow from the life of Christ that is in us. It is not us generating it by our own will-power...this is the work of the flesh. Only the Holy Spirit within us can judge the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Not all "good works" are of God. The person 'receiving" those good works are getting blessed for sure.

The people that the Lord said.."Depart from Me ..I never knew you"..they were "doing good works"

Good works are not a "requirement" from God ( this is a legalistic view ) - they are a natural by-product of the fruit of being a branch in Christ - our Vine and life. We get to participate with what He is doing in and through us as it is the fruit of His life and love that is flowing out to others.

John 15:5 (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

 

[PeterJens]

Getting it real

When we are saved we have faith, but many inbuilt behaviour patterns and issues that need working through.
Some teachers will say, it will just happen, but actually you have to follow Jesus and obey.

We are washed by the word of Christ as we dwell on it, reading, listening, talking about, thinking on.
We are transformed through action, forgiving, repenting, confessing, giving, doing.
We are made righteous through the blood of Jesus and faith in Him.

Practising the presence of Jesus. Wherever you go, pray to the Lord, and commit the things you are doing to Him.
You will find your understanding changes as you bring Jesus into every situation.

Practice loving people. Think of the things they do well, what a blessing they are to others, how you can help them.
Forgive their hurts to you, and their mistakes. This will change every relationship you have.

These are things that are a choice of the will, and simple spiritual exercises. Those who talk against such things do not know how to walk with Jesus, so do not listen to them.

Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience.
Col 3:12

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hmm, lots of people confuse this issue, and, in my opinion, they are doing so dangerously. Usually it is the once saved - always saved crowd.

As for trampling the blood of Christ, or His work on the cross thing goes, IF once we come to Christ, and then, as human beings are prone to do.............and MESS UP..........WE STILL must repent of that sinful action..........IT IS NOT crucifying Christ anew/again..........His blood is FOREVER..........it is simply recognizing when we mess up, confessing to God we messed up, and repenting, and BEING ASSURED His precious blood will ALWAYS be there to atone for our mess ups.

People simply confuse this issue waaaaayyyyyy too much. As for those who BELIEVE one can sin, sin, and sin again AFTER their Salvation, and NEVER have to worry about it.............well, I suggest they invest in some serious tanning cream.

So let me get this straight.

1. I am a non believer in God, an enemy of God, a person who is dead to Christ.
2. I come to repentance, and agree, I must love my neighbor. One of the reasons I needed saved, was because I failed to love my neighbor. and ask God to forgive me of my sins based on his sacrifice.. And he saves me and adopts me as his son.
3. 3 weeks later, Someone needs my help and although I KNOW I SHOULD HELP HIM, My flesh gets in the way, because I have a football game to watch.

If I do not repent of that sin (which is impossible, because I already agree with God, it was sin) I will go to hell??

That to me is mocking God.. God saved me knowing long before I did that sin I was going to do it. And to say I need to repent again when I never changed my mind back to say it was not a sin in the first place. that's just mockery!

 

[psychomom]

k, i haven't read the whole thread (sorry, guys!) but i'm gonna put this in terms of my closest human relationship--
my husband.

i like to keep what my grandmother called 'short accounts' with my husband. so when i become aware i've offended him, i apologize. i'll even bother him at work to do it. not because i think he'll hold a grudge, but because i love him and don't want anything interfering with the closeness we share.

have i been justified by the blood of Christ? absolutely! will anything change it? never.
yet when i become aware i have offended our Holy God, i want to be quick to apologize and ask for help in not repeating said offense.

and, you know? it also makes me aware of how much i've been forgiven and helps me be quicker to forgive others. it makes me more compassionate toward the failings and frailties of others as i see my own more clearly.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You and Christ and GOD differ greatly on this point. You want to keep saying "good works" do not save us.......WELL YEAH, EVERYONE KNOWS THAT..........however, when you say that "good works" are not required of us BY GOD, you are dangerously mistaken..........and you are not alone in this......and it is a sad thing.

Look at the bolded and think about it for a minute

Good works do not save us

Good works are required to save us.

these are polar opposite statements and contradict each other.

If Good works are REQUIRED to be saved. then Good works save us.. (there is no way around this your stuck, if it is one way, then it has to be both ways. )