Did I really choose to sin, or was it Adam's fault?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
I get Max Lucado things sent to my email all the time....this showed up today. Thought it applied to this thread.

spacer.gif
The Choice

by Max Lucado

He placed one scoop of clay upon another until a form lay lifeless on the ground.
All of the Garden’s inhabitants paused to witness the event. Hawks hovered. Giraffes stretched. Trees bowed. Butterflies paused on petals and watched.
“You will love me, nature,” God said. “I made you that way. You will obey me, universe. For you were designed to do so. You will reflect my glory, skies, for that is how you were created. But this one will be like me. This one will be able to choose.”
All were silent as the Creator reached into himself and removed something yet unseen. A seed. “It’s called ‘choice.’ The seed of choice.”
Creation stood in silence and gazed upon the lifeless form.
An angel spoke, “But what if he … ”
“What if he chooses not to love?” the Creator finished. “Come, I will show you.”
Unbound by today, God and the angel walked into the realm of tomorrow.
“There, see the fruit of the seed of choice, both the sweet and the bitter.”
The angel gasped at what he saw. Spontaneous love. Voluntary devotion. Chosen tenderness. Never had he seen anything like these. He felt the love of the Adams. He heard the joy of Eve and her daughters. He saw the food and the burdens shared. He absorbed the kindness and marveled at the warmth.
“Heaven has never seen such beauty, my Lord. Truly, this is your greatest creation.”
“Ah, but you’ve only seen the sweet. Now witness the bitter.”
A stench enveloped the pair. The angel turned in horror and proclaimed, “What is it?”
The Creator spoke only one word: “Selfishness.”
The angel stood speechless as they passed through centuries of repugnance. Never had he seen such filth. Rotten hearts. Ruptured promises. Forgotten loyalties. Children of the creation wandering blindly in lonely labyrinths.
“This is the result of choice?” the angel asked.
“Yes.”
“They will forget you?”
“Yes.”
“They will reject you?”
“Yes.”
“They will never come back?”
“Some will. Most won’t.”
“What will it take to make them listen?”

The Creator walked on in time, further and further into the future, until he stood by a tree. A tree that would be fashioned into a cradle. Even then he could smell the hay that would surround him.
With another step into the future, he paused before another tree. It stood alone, a stubborn ruler of a bald hill. The trunk was thick, and the wood was strong. Soon it would be cut. Soon it would be trimmed. Soon it would be mounted on the stony brow of another hill. And soon he would be hung on it.
He felt the wood rub against a back he did not yet wear.
“Will you go down there?” the angel asked.
“I will.”
“Is there no other way?”
“There is not.”
“Wouldn’t it be easier to not plant the seed? Wouldn’t it be easier to not give the choice?”
“It would,” the Creator spoke slowly. “But to remove the choice is to remove the love.”
He looked around the hill and foresaw a scene. Three figures hung on three crosses. Arms spread. Heads fallen forward. They moaned with the wind.
Men clad in soldiers’ garb sat on the ground near the trio. They played games in the dirt and laughed.
Men clad in religion stood off to one side. They smiled. Arrogant, cocky. They had protected God, they thought, by killing this false one.
Women clad in sorrow huddled at the foot of the hill. Speechless. Faces tear streaked. Eyes downward. One put her arm around another and tried to lead her away. She wouldn’t leave. “I will stay,” she said softly. “I will stay.”
All heaven stood to fight. All nature rose to rescue. All eternity poised to protect. But the Creator gave no command.
“It must be done … ,” he said, and withdrew.
But as he stepped back in time, he heard the cry that he would someday scream: “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” (Mark 15:34) He wrenched at tomorrow’s agony.
The angel spoke again. “It would be less painful … ”
The Creator interrupted softly. “But it wouldn’t be love.”
They stepped into the Garden again. The Maker looked earnestly at the clay creation. A monsoon of love swelled up within him. He had died for the creation before he had made him. God’s form bent over the sculptured face and breathed. Dust stirred on the lips of the new one. The chest rose, cracking the red mud. The cheeks fleshened. A finger moved. And an eye opened.
But more incredible than the moving of the flesh was the stirring of the spirit. Those who could see the unseen gasped.
Perhaps it was the wind who said it first. Perhaps what the star saw that moment is what has made it blink ever since. Maybe it was left to an angel to whisper it:
“It looks like … it appears so much like … it is him!”
The angel wasn’t speaking of the face, the features, or the body. He was looking inside—at the soul.
“It’s eternal!” gasped another.
Within the man, God had placed a divine seed. A seed of his self. The God of might had created earth’s mightiest. The Creator had created, not a creature, but another creator. And the One who had chosen to love had created one who could love in return.
Now it’s our choice.
From In the Eye of the Storm
Copyright (Thomas Nelson, 1997) Max Lucado
 
But I didn't even have a choice whether I would sin. I was destined to be sinful from the day I was born.

whether you were a sinner or not, do you think that as you are is what god wants?

we did not have a choice about who our parents were, and we don't have a choice about our nature. we do have a choice about whether we sin our not. but our nature is such that we do not know god as he is, because our father, adam, sinned, and through this sin died. therefore, we all die. this is unacceptable to god, and he wants us to live, forever. so through jesus, who died for us to sin and to death, and was raised from the dead to live forever, we too are raised in him to newness of life, to live in him, forever.
 
The very fact that you are feeling the urge to blame others for your sin reveals your sinful nature. Adam and Eve never repented for their sins, instead they blamed each other and the serpent.

Original sin is not disobedience, it is failure to repent - this is also what blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is.

If Adam and Eve repented of their sin, God would have forgiven them immediately and life would have continued on in the Garden.

Instead, Adam and Eve choose to pass the buck and that habit has been pasted on through the generations.

God had to send his Son to die (I think of it as His heart breaking) for us, in order to communicate the impact our lack of remorse has had on Him - and for us to truly understand what it means for Him to forgive us.

I can't believe you actually believe that aspen 'original sin is not disobedience it is a failure to repent'

So sin is not being disobedient, it is just the fact that you never repent? I think you seriously need to rethink what sin is aspen.

The very fact that they did not repent makes matters worse as we saw the consequences, however it was the act of Disobedience that brought death, that hurt God to the core, that went against God.

Of course in a sense it was Blasphemous, you are right there as long as your not referring to the blasphemy against the spirit to which Jesus spoke.

The blasphemey in the garden was such of relying on the serpent, believing him against God.


phil
 
But I didn't even have a choice whether I would sin. I was destined to be sinful from the day I was born.
ask yourself this before u blame Adam,do u have a choice now yes or no?i belief the bible says that all things are new in Christ, are u doing the right thing?
 
I agree with Sharp. The bible makes it very clear that we are born sinners because of the fall.

I doubt we would do any better than Adam if we started sinfree, but I do find it unfair that we are born into sin... that's kinda like if you blidfolded someone from birth, even if they could see

Paul clarifies a lot of this in Romans, that we were born with a sinful nature because of Adam. This nature is in conflict with God, which is the problem if you are to approach His throne. The act of sinning, everyone does eventually because we inherited it from Adam.
 
to say that we have a sin nature does not go far enough, in my case. i was a liar against god, claiming to follow him, when in truth i was lifting myself up using his word and his salvation for my own purposes. it doesn't get much worse than that.

as people, we will contrive and scheme and lie and twist everything, for our own purpose. as people of the world, it is our nature to lift ourselves up above others, and even above god. every person is different. everyone's faults are different. each of us is a very complex personality, with seemingly good points and bad points. but what we should realize is that god's redemption for and of us is complete, encompassing our entire nature, a complete and total redemption. my belief is that all of my life is not godly, and needs to be crucified with jesus, to be raised up in him new, completely and complete.
 
Well Paul blamed Eve:

1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
 
Well Paul blamed Eve:

1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
adam also blamed eve, well really he blamed god, say something about the woman god had given him bid him to eat.
 
I'm having trouble with this passage as it seems to imply that the reason I am sinful is because Adam sinned.

If that is the case, maybe I didn't have a choice as to whether to sin, and so how can my sin be held against me?

What if I was in Adam's position? Maybe I would not have sinned?

I'm finding myself blaming Adam for man's sinfulness.

Greetings Sharp and excellent question!

To answer briefly, the saints of old taught of two types of sin. The first type is a disposition of the heart toward rebellion and hatred of God. The second type is the actual sin that we choose to commit; our specific external sinful actions.

The disposition of the heart is not your fault, but persistence in a life of outward sinful actions will take your soul to hell. God made a way out of your sin through faith in Him. God's promises offer complete freedom from both types of sin; external as well as the internal disposition.

I always get a little bit stuck at this point. Wesley says that a justified believer who still has the sinful disposition should be free enough not to commit willful outward sin. That's not been my personal experience however.

One possibility is that the only sins that we are guilty of are unbelief and an attempt to establish our own righteousness. Repenting in the Bible could specifically mean to stop all trust in one's own good works to save himself. Repent and believe = Stop trying to save yourself with your works (like the Pharisees) and start believing on Christ.

God Bless,

Quest
 
How can I not sympathise with a person who never asked to be created, never asked Jesus to die for them, and spends eternity in hell?

This peron would say, thanks alot Adam.

But, do we know, theologically, whether, if any given person was in Adam's place, they would have sinned? Was mankind destined to sin, with Adam just being the poor fella who came first?

You are expressing a whole lot of hopelessness in your words. God has an answer for you Sharp, and that answer is a full salvation from sin. Please Google: "The Second Blessing."

God is giving you a chance to learn to hate your sin, and see your need for His Spirit to fill you.

Quest
 
1. I hope you empathize with Adam - I do. Who knows what Adam did when Jesus preached to the people in prison during the two days in the tomb?

2. I do not believe any of us would have sinned - that implies that sin was supposed to be apart of Creation - I do not believe it was. You should read Palandra, by CS Lewis - it is a different take on the story of Adam and Eve - I really enjoyed it.

Jesus is God of the living He said. Abraham, Moses and most likely Adam were all in heaven when Jesus was on earth. It was Cain and his descendants that cruelly departed from God. I believe Adam and Eve are in heaven with Abel.

Quest
 
I guess precisely what I'm struggling with is the doctrine of original sin. i.e. the logistics of how it works, why it happened and how.

Why did Adam's choice represent the collective choice of mankind to sin? Why did the fate of mankind's disposition towards God depend upon the actions of the first man created?
 
I guess precisely what I'm struggling with is the doctrine of original sin. i.e. the logistics of how it works, why it happened and how.

Why did Adam's choice represent the collective choice of mankind to sin? Why did the fate of mankind's disposition towards God depend upon the actions of the first man created?

The only alternative to us being born with sin would be for Adam and Eve's children to be taken from them at birth and be flown back to the Garden of Eden by an angel. But I think that the Father passes the sin nature down anyway.

Sharp, it is my belief that God planned for Adam to fall and the rest of us with Him, so that He could show us how wonderful He is to us; by saving us from our corruption even when we are so evil that we nailed Him to a tree. I also believe that He gives men free will to choose or reject Him.

Quest