Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR
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^ @FollowerofShiloh 's Post #1180,
Thanks for the question.
To save me a bit of typing, I'll just say two things here (to address your question):
--that verse 18 is speaking first of humanity in general [Gentiles]; and then of Israel/Jews in particular (where it says, "WHO HOLD THE TRUTH in unrighteousness");... which verse (18) provides the OUTLINE of what Paul is going to lay out in the first three chpts; which specific OUTLINE I spell out in the post at the LINK I will provide, here:
--the OUTLINE of Paul's first three chapters (scroll down to the bottom half of the following post, and note esp. what I'd put there re: v.18):
Post #733 - https://christianchat.com/threads/i...-restrains-the-antichrist.195880/post-4459983
Hope that helps you see how I understand Wm Kelly's basic point in that quote (in my Post #1179 - https://christianchat.com/threads/d...en-in-the-book-of-life-or.214168/post-5256487 ).
Thanks for the question.
To save me a bit of typing, I'll just say two things here (to address your question):
--that verse 18 is speaking first of humanity in general [Gentiles]; and then of Israel/Jews in particular (where it says, "WHO HOLD THE TRUTH in unrighteousness");... which verse (18) provides the OUTLINE of what Paul is going to lay out in the first three chpts; which specific OUTLINE I spell out in the post at the LINK I will provide, here:
--the OUTLINE of Paul's first three chapters (scroll down to the bottom half of the following post, and note esp. what I'd put there re: v.18):
Post #733 - https://christianchat.com/threads/i...-restrains-the-antichrist.195880/post-4459983
Hope that helps you see how I understand Wm Kelly's basic point in that quote (in my Post #1179 - https://christianchat.com/threads/d...en-in-the-book-of-life-or.214168/post-5256487 ).
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^ @FollowerofShiloh 's Post #1180,
Thanks for the question.
To save me a bit of typing, I'll just say two things here (to address your question):
--that verse 18 is speaking first of humanity in general [Gentiles]; and then of Israel/Jews in particular (where it says, "WHO HOLD THE TRUTH in unrighteousness");... which verse (18) provides the OUTLINE of what Paul is going to lay out in the first three chpts; which specific OUTLINE I spell out in the post at the LINK I will provide, here:
--the OUTLINE of Paul's first three chapters (scroll down to the bottom half of the following post, and note esp. what I'd put there re: v.18):
Post #733 - https://christianchat.com/threads/i...-restrains-the-antichrist.195880/post-4459983
Hope that helps you see how I understand Wm Kelly's basic point in that quote (in my Post #1179 - https://christianchat.com/threads/d...en-in-the-book-of-life-or.214168/post-5256487 ).
Thanks for the question.
To save me a bit of typing, I'll just say two things here (to address your question):
--that verse 18 is speaking first of humanity in general [Gentiles]; and then of Israel/Jews in particular (where it says, "WHO HOLD THE TRUTH in unrighteousness");... which verse (18) provides the OUTLINE of what Paul is going to lay out in the first three chpts; which specific OUTLINE I spell out in the post at the LINK I will provide, here:
--the OUTLINE of Paul's first three chapters (scroll down to the bottom half of the following post, and note esp. what I'd put there re: v.18):
Post #733 - https://christianchat.com/threads/i...-restrains-the-antichrist.195880/post-4459983
Hope that helps you see how I understand Wm Kelly's basic point in that quote (in my Post #1179 - https://christianchat.com/threads/d...en-in-the-book-of-life-or.214168/post-5256487 ).
^ @FollowerofShiloh also ,
I'm inclined to agree with those who say that the phrase (in 1:18) saying, "who HOLD THE TRUTH in unrighteousness" was speaking specifically of "[OT] Israel"... who were given special revelation (that the rest of the world/humans were not given).
Later in Romans 11, (speaking of the same "people") the question is posed, "Hath God cast away His people? God forbid" (and then states, of them) "God hath not cast away His people which He FOREKNEW..." (i.e. [Israel] in OT times)... and then further down, in v.7 (speaking of the then present time), "Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded/hardened" and then further down, in v.25 says this (of them), "that blindness/a hardening in part is happened to Israel UNTIL..." (the "until," speaking of a future point in time)
,I'm inclined to agree with those who say that the phrase (in 1:18) saying, "who HOLD THE TRUTH in unrighteousness" was speaking specifically of "[OT] Israel"... who were given special revelation (that the rest of the world/humans were not given).
Later in Romans 11, (speaking of the same "people") the question is posed, "Hath God cast away His people? God forbid" (and then states, of them) "God hath not cast away His people which He FOREKNEW..." (i.e. [Israel] in OT times)... and then further down, in v.7 (speaking of the then present time), "Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded/hardened" and then further down, in v.25 says this (of them), "that blindness/a hardening in part is happened to Israel UNTIL..." (the "until," speaking of a future point in time)
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
But the rest of Rom 2 is about the jews into chpt 3
Here's why I'm inclined to disagree with you (though I understand where you are coming from)...
The word here in 2:14 (in BLUE) "having [not] / have [not]" is G2192 - "echo";
The word in 1:18 "HOLD [G2722 - katechontōn / katechō ]" ... "κατέχω katéchō, kat-ekh'-o; from G2596 and G2192; to hold down (fast), in various applications (literally or figuratively):—have, hold (fast), keep (in memory), let, × make toward, possess, retain, seize on, stay, take, withhold."
These (the Gentiles) WHO HAVE NOT the Law... but "shew THE WORK OF" it (while not "HAVING" it, the text states)... ; the "WORK OF" the law not being the same as "HAVING" the law itself, see.
It was the Jews (specifically) who both "HAD [/HAVING / HAVE]" the law, but also "HOLD THE TRUTH [in unrighteousness]" (v.18b, speaking specifically of them).
____________
I guess you could say, similarly to how Rom9 says this (re: them),
"my kinsmen according to the flesh: Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came ... "
... make sense?
The word here in 2:14 (in BLUE) "having [not] / have [not]" is G2192 - "echo";
The word in 1:18 "HOLD [G2722 - katechontōn / katechō ]" ... "κατέχω katéchō, kat-ekh'-o; from G2596 and G2192; to hold down (fast), in various applications (literally or figuratively):—have, hold (fast), keep (in memory), let, × make toward, possess, retain, seize on, stay, take, withhold."
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
It was the Jews (specifically) who both "HAD [/HAVING / HAVE]" the law, but also "HOLD THE TRUTH [in unrighteousness]" (v.18b, speaking specifically of them).
____________
I guess you could say, similarly to how Rom9 says this (re: them),
"my kinsmen according to the flesh: Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came ... "
... make sense?
Famous and well known "atheist Richard Dawkins" + others reminds me of the 18th century Voltaire. Most of the time they spend their days "telling others" God is not real. On average, they have at least 2 conferences per month to discuss that "God is not real." They spend countless hours per day researching to prove their viewpoint. They have GOD on their mind as much as Believers in God do, maybe even more.
This tells me that God is working on them DAY after DAY, YEAR after YEAR.
For those pushing this idea that God does not give the unbeliever a chance at repentance, they are clearly wrong. Most unbelievers are thinking about God as much and if not more than believers. Difference between them and us is we "chose in Free Will to believe when God made Himself known to us and they rejected God in Free Will."
But make no mistake, the unbeliever thinks about God because God puts Himself into their minds on a DAILY basis.
And why wouldn't God be making them think about Him, He died for them like He did for you and me.
This tells me that God is working on them DAY after DAY, YEAR after YEAR.
For those pushing this idea that God does not give the unbeliever a chance at repentance, they are clearly wrong. Most unbelievers are thinking about God as much and if not more than believers. Difference between them and us is we "chose in Free Will to believe when God made Himself known to us and they rejected God in Free Will."
But make no mistake, the unbeliever thinks about God because God puts Himself into their minds on a DAILY basis.
And why wouldn't God be making them think about Him, He died for them like He did for you and me.
Some truth to Support:
Both Isaiah 55 and Acts 2 indeed extend a universal invitation to salvation. Isaiah 55:1-3 invites all who are thirsty to come to the waters, signifying the free offer of God's salvation to everyone who seeks Him. Similarly, Acts 2 recounts the events of Pentecost and Peter's sermon, culminating in the call to repentance and the promise that the gift of the Holy Spirit is for all whom the Lord our God will call (Acts 2:38-39).
Acts 2 does accentuate the activity of God in salvation, particularly through the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, which empowers the disciples, fulfills prophecy, and convicts the hearts of listeners, leading about three thousand souls to be saved that day (Acts 2:41). This divine activity underscores the role of the Holy Spirit in initiating and sustaining the believers' response to the gospel.
The statement hints at the theological discussion concerning the nature of saving faith and the reasons why some responses to the gospel result in salvation while others do not. Scripture teaches that salvation involves both God's sovereignty in calling and electing (Romans 8:28-30, Ephesians 1:4-5) and human responsibility in responding in faith and repentance (John 3:16, Romans 10:9-10). The mystery of why some people respond in saving faith while others do not is ultimately known only to God and is part of the tension between divine sovereignty and human free will in salvation.
the activity of God in prompting a response, and the necessity of a human response, the complexity of the interaction between God's sovereignty and human responsibility in salvation warrants a higher understanding. Scripture affirms both God's gracious initiative in salvation and the requirement of a faith-filled response from individuals, leaving the ultimate mystery of the differing responses to God's sovereignty and wisdom.
Both Isaiah 55 and Acts 2 indeed extend a universal invitation to salvation. Isaiah 55:1-3 invites all who are thirsty to come to the waters, signifying the free offer of God's salvation to everyone who seeks Him. Similarly, Acts 2 recounts the events of Pentecost and Peter's sermon, culminating in the call to repentance and the promise that the gift of the Holy Spirit is for all whom the Lord our God will call (Acts 2:38-39).
Acts 2 does accentuate the activity of God in salvation, particularly through the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, which empowers the disciples, fulfills prophecy, and convicts the hearts of listeners, leading about three thousand souls to be saved that day (Acts 2:41). This divine activity underscores the role of the Holy Spirit in initiating and sustaining the believers' response to the gospel.
The statement hints at the theological discussion concerning the nature of saving faith and the reasons why some responses to the gospel result in salvation while others do not. Scripture teaches that salvation involves both God's sovereignty in calling and electing (Romans 8:28-30, Ephesians 1:4-5) and human responsibility in responding in faith and repentance (John 3:16, Romans 10:9-10). The mystery of why some people respond in saving faith while others do not is ultimately known only to God and is part of the tension between divine sovereignty and human free will in salvation.
the activity of God in prompting a response, and the necessity of a human response, the complexity of the interaction between God's sovereignty and human responsibility in salvation warrants a higher understanding. Scripture affirms both God's gracious initiative in salvation and the requirement of a faith-filled response from individuals, leaving the ultimate mystery of the differing responses to God's sovereignty and wisdom.
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I totally agree that it takes both (1. the spirit working in our heart and 2. the sinner turning from unbelief to faith in Christ). This is a mystery we will never totally understand in this lifetime. But I truly believe that without that act of the spirit we would never come to Christ.
To God be the the glory!
To God be the the glory!
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Its all of God, a person believes because its been given to them for Christs Sake Phil 1:29
29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
Paul also understood this when he told the Philippian Jailor Acts 16:31
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
Paul also understood this when he told the Philippian Jailor Acts 16:31
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
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Yes it does make them believe. And when Christ gives repentance, it causes them to repent Acts 5:31
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
The word repentance here and in Acts 11:18 is metanoia :
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
The word repentance here and in Acts 11:18 is metanoia :
- a change of mind, as it appears to one who repents, of a purpose he has formed or of something he has done
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When God puts His word and Spirit into a sinner's heart and soul, their heart is indeed renewed and they will believe. Turning to Him is not a work on our part, it is grace from Him which cannot be resisted.
Just as He says in John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.
If your looking for a verse that claims God forced you to be saved, then you are correct, there is no such verse!
Just as He says in John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.
If your looking for a verse that claims God forced you to be saved, then you are correct, there is no such verse!
21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves,
25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever
People still have the Free Will to reject God even if He puts His Word into their heart.
24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves,
25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever
People still have the Free Will to reject God even if He puts His Word into their heart.