Did Jonah die or live inside the sea creature?

[Skovand]

A lot of times in passerby comments people mention surviving inside a “whale” for three days as something Jonah accomplished. But scripture points towards another understanding. We see in his prayer in Jonah two several clues. First he mentions he cried out from Sheol, which is the grave. In verse six it states that he was in the pit and that the bars of the earth was around him but God called him up out of the pit. It seems as he was dying Jonah was praying to God and afterwards at some point God called himself back to life.

This also fits with the sign Jesus said he would give them.
In Matthew 12:38-41 Jesus said he would give them only the sign of Jonah. Jesus was not alive in the tomb for three days. He died and came back. In the same way Jonah did.

 

[Webers.Home]

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he cried out from Sheol, which is the grave.

Sheol likely includes the grave, but it's not the whole picture. Jonah's sheol
was located at the roots of the mountains, which of course aren't located in
the tummy of a fish, rather, deep in the Earth. Well; in order for Jonah to be
at the bottoms of the mountains while simultaneously in the tummy of a
fish, the man and his body had to part company.

the bars of the earth was around him but God called him up out of the pit.

Actually God brought him up from the pit rather than calling him. Plus; the
Hebrew word for "the pit" in the Old Testament often speaks of putrefaction,
i.e. rot and decay. The very same word is located in Ps 16:8-10, which Acts
2:25-31 verifies is speaking of a dead body. In other words: Jonah 2:6 tells
about Jonah's recovery.

● Matt 12:40 . . For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of
a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the
heart of the earth.

Now when you think about it, Jesus' crucified dead body wasn't laid to rest in
the heart of the earth. In point of fact it wasn't even buried in the earth's
soil. In order for Jesus' body to be up on the surface of the earth while
simultaneously in its heart, the man and his body had to part company and
go their separate ways.
_

 

[Skovand]

I’m pretty sure in Jonah two it’s talking clearly about him being dead. The symbolism about below the earth, the mountains, and bars of the earth and so on are all about death. Which is hades.

Then just like Jesus was dead for three days, so was Jonah. That’s the sign. Coming back from death.

Bringing up or calling forth is the same thing different way of phrasing it.

 

[Scribe]

I think J. Vernon McGee was known for teaching this on the radio for many years. Not that he was the first to teach it but he did make it popular with his radio platform and charming personality and being a generally solid fundamentalist preacher, he caused many to accept it as true.

I never understood it that way from the first reading and was shocked when I heard McGee teach it. I thought McGee was smarter than that. The sign of Jonas was just that "A sign" A shadow, a Type, not the real.

Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly,
2And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice. (here he is in the belly of the fish when he says out of the belly of hell I cried. CONTEXTUAL CONTEXT requires such an interpretation. He is calling his condition the belly of hell as it would be such a miserable place and he is using poetic license)

3For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me.

4Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple.

5The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head. (Is there sea weed in spiritual hell?)

6I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.

7When my soul fainted within me I remembered the LORD: and my prayer came in unto thee, into thine holy temple.

8They that observe lying vanities forsake their own mercy.

This is not even the least bit confusing. He was clearly talking about the fact that the fish took him down to the bottom of the ocean and somehow Jonah probably could feel the pressure and knew he was at an awful depth and he had SEA WEED WRAPPED ABOUT HIS HEAD... that part was probably recorded because God knew someone would think Jonah had died and gone to hell and been resurrected if that detail was not included. That Jesus pointed to it as a TYPE or sign means that it was not that Jonah literally did what Jesus did. Theologically Jonah could not have been the first. However it does give us another reason to believe that Jesus did descend into the lower parts of the earth after his death as this is still debated.

 

[Scribe]

I think J. Vernon McGee was known for teaching this on the radio for many years. Not that he was the first to teach it but he did make it popular with his radio platform and charming personality and being a generally solid fundamentalist preacher, he caused many to accept it as true.

I never understood it that way from the first reading and was shocked when I heard McGee teach it. I thought McGee was smarter than that. The sign of Jonas was just that "A sign" A shadow, a Type, not the real.

Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly,
2And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice. (here he is in the belly of the fish when he says out of the belly of hell I cried. CONTEXTUAL CONTEXT requires such an interpretation. He is calling his condition the belly of hell as it would be such a miserable place and he is using poetic license)

3For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me.

4Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple.

5The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head. (Is there sea weed in spiritual hell?)

6I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.

7When my soul fainted within me I remembered the LORD: and my prayer came in unto thee, into thine holy temple.

8They that observe lying vanities forsake their own mercy.

This is not even the least bit confusing. He was clearly talking about the fact that the fish took him down to the bottom of the ocean and somehow Jonah probably could feel the pressure and knew he was at an awful depth and he had SEA WEED WRAPPED ABOUT HIS HEAD... that part was probably recorded because God knew someone would think Jonah had died and gone to hell and been resurrected if that detail was not included. That Jesus pointed to it as a TYPE or sign means that it was not that Jonah literally did what Jesus did. Theologically Jonah could not have been the first. However it does give us another reason to believe that Jesus did descend into the lower parts of the earth after his death as this is still debated.

Also remember that if you trace every mention of sheol in the Old Testament you will find that it is not simply the grave. It is almost always except for a few cases used to describe a place of punishment for the wicked, a place for the unrighteous. Even those cases that seem otherwise such as Jacob saying he was going to descend into sheol like Joseph who he thought was dead was probably referring to the belief that they had both been unrighteous in some way as to deserve such tragic fates as him loosing both sons (if Benjamin died) and Joseph having been torn by wild beasts (as he thought had happened at the time)

Jonah meant it in the negative sense, that he felt the horror of it in the belly of the fish and felt it was like a ride to hell literally, surely he expected it to end in his literal descent into hell after death. The phrase "Going to hell in a hand basket" hadn't been invented yet, but he felt he was going to hell in a fish for disobeying God.

 

[JaumeJ]

Is not the signe of Johan no sign at all?

 

[Skovand]

I guess I think you’re response is way off and when I’m home I’ll be able to respond more.

But to begin Jonah is an ahistorical satire. It’s not real. You can double the ages. Scott McKnight also goes fairly in depth to the Hebrew language focused parodies in the story. But I guess that’s for another thread that I’m working on after Noah’s flood and tracing back revelation’s war language symbolism to its actual meanings in the Torah.

But anyways Jonah never went to hell. He went to hades which is the land of the dead. Hell is where the lost goes after the white throne judgement. Gehenna is not hades it Sheol.

Secondly what’s being done here is a lot of symbolism. He’s referring to places of chaos and death. To Sheol the underworld which is hades. He’s referring to being underneath the mountains, as in being in the ground. He’s referring to being at the bottom of the ocean wrapped in seaweed dead. None of it was things he was actually dealing with first hand. The story was wrote after all the events, not as it was occurring. That’s the point of the view the tale was written from. Hyperbolic. The white Torah was a shadow of things to come. None of that means real or not real.

The story contains a man eaten by a giant sea monster ( it’s not actually a whale that’s impossible and it’s not any known fishes either but rather the term is linked to sea dragon). He’s swallowed and dies and resurrects a few days later spat out onto a shore. A lot of it will make a lot more sense once I begin to draw out the comedy thst the story is. It’s a comedy drama wrote from the perspective of Jonah well after he’s dead.

 

[Skovand]

Is not the signe of Johan no sign at all?

The sign is there.
jesus was buried , and dead, for a few days before he was resurrected to life. That’s hyperlinking back to Jonah being dead for a few days before being resurrected back to life.

 

[JaumeJ]

The Pharisees asked for a sign, and they were told they would receive no sign except the sign of Jonah.

I cannot hyperlink to anything other than when Jonah wanted a sign from God concerning Nineveh, there was no response whatsoever, and Johnna became a bit peeved.

 

[posthuman]

I think J. Vernon McGee was known for teaching this on the radio for many years. Not that he was the first to teach it but he did make it popular with his radio platform and charming personality and being a generally solid fundamentalist preacher, he caused many to accept it as true.

It was from McGee that i first heard this interpretation too; i hadn't had it taught that way growing up in church. Come to think of it i don't think they said, one way or another, in sunday - school?

i tend to agree with the view that he did in fact die in the fish and that God raised him up later, but i am open to being convinced by argument either way.
Am not sure whether Jonah could have felt pressure change inside the belly - does a fish have positive pressure inside, so it doesn't collapse?

 

[posthuman]

Am not sure whether Jonah could have felt pressure change inside the belly - does a fish have positive pressure inside, so it doesn't collapse?

Actually a little poking around reveals that whales do seem to let their lungs collapse when diving.. So I would assume any air in the belly is also expelled. This is looking more like Jonah actually dies - or is miraculously kept alive without oxygen?

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-do-deep-diving-sea-cr/

 

[Scribe]

It was from McGee that i first heard this interpretation too; i hadn't had it taught that way growing up in church. Come to think of it i don't think they said, one way or another, in sunday - school?

i tend to agree with the view that he did in fact die in the fish and that God raised him up later, but i am open to being convinced by argument either way.
Am not sure whether Jonah could have felt pressure change inside the belly - does a fish have positive pressure inside, so it doesn't collapse?

I don't know how he knew the fish had gone to the bottom of the undersea mountains, or how he knew which direction the temple was, but I know he did not die, his prayers for deliverance from death were heard and the fish vomited him out on the shore. Now I myself have resisted the call of God to preach repentance in Nineveh and got on a ship headed for Tarshish. I too found myself in the belly of hell and when I cried out to God in repentance he delivered me and now I am back on shore preaching to the Nehnevites.

 

[Skovand]

Actually a little poking around reveals that whales do seem to let their lungs collapse when diving.. So I would assume any air in the belly is also expelled. This is looking more like Jonah actually dies - or is miraculously kept alive without oxygen?

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-do-deep-diving-sea-cr/

Another thing to consider is that the largest whale we know of is the blue whale and it’s throat is a little wider in diameter than an apple. So Jonah would have been in the mouth of a whale and never in the belly of any known whale or fish. The word translated belly is ambiguous. It could mean back of mouth near the throat which again is an area routinely flooded with water.

In any shape or form Jonah died and as he was fainting he was praying and after being dead for a few days was spat out and brought back to life.

It also runs parallels with baptism.

Repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins so that you may receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Jonah was buried under water and resurfaced alive and carried a message of repentance.

 

[Scribe]

Another thing to consider is that the largest whale we know of is the blue whale and it’s throat is a little wider in diameter than an apple. So Jonah would have been in the mouth of a whale and never in the belly of any known whale or fish. The word translated belly is ambiguous. It could mean back of mouth near the throat which again is an area routinely flooded with water.

In any shape or form Jonah died and as he was fainting he was praying and after being dead for a few days was spat out and brought back to life.

It also runs parallels with baptism.

Repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins so that you may receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Jonah was buried under water and resurfaced alive and carried a message of repentance.

Here is something someone else wrote that I thought was worth repeating:

Psalm 116:3 says, "The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of Sheol got hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow." Also, "For great [is] thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest Sheol.( Psalm 86:13 )" I don't think that David was actually dead before he wrote this psalm.

Although the above verses demonstrate that death isn't necessary in Jonah's case, I think that the more convincing evidence is found in Matthew 12:40:
"For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

Jesus here is drawing a comparison between the prophet and Himself. However, He is also opposing His future location (the heart of the earth) to that of Jonah (the belly of the fish). If we are to assume that Jesus meant Sheol when he said heart of the earth (and I feel this is a logical conclusion, because Joseph of Arimathaea's tomb was no more than a few feet inside the earth - hardly the "heart"), then He places Jonah's position not in Sheol, but still in the belly of the fish. Jesus here makes it known that Jonah was a type of Christ, but He also seems to say that His future is much greater in degree than Jonah's.

 

[Skovand]

Matthew 12:39-40 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
39 But He answered and said to them, “An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign; and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet; 40 for just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the sea monster, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

You are trying to make a hyperbolic statement over literal and legalistic. The earth has no heart. Hades is not a literal place. There is no center of the earth full of ghosts.

It’s so clear.
Jonah clearly died. He was not eternally drowning but kept alive for three days. He died. Just like any of us would have. He was dead for three days. Just like Jesus was.

The point to the Jews was that Christ’s final and ultimate sign for them would be his death, burial, and resurrection. Gods joke was that Jonah could not even escape his will in death. Reading through Jonah you can see he would rather die than preach salvation to the Assyrians. He willingly went to death and wa snot allowed. He was brought back and carried out the will of God.

 

[Skovand]

The Pharisees asked for a sign, and they were told they would receive no sign except the sign of Jonah.

I cannot hyperlink to anything other than when Jonah wanted a sign from God concerning Nineveh, there was no response whatsoever, and Johnna became a bit peeved.

Well the verse does all the hyperlinking for you.

Matthew 12:39-40 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
39 But He answered and said to them, “An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign; and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet; 40 for just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the sea monster, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Jesus’s sign Would be the sign of Jonah , for just as Jonah was in the stomach of a whale for three days so would Christ be in the heart of the earth.

 

[Webers.Home]

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● Jonah 1:17a . .The Lord provided a great fish to swallow Jonah,

I think if we allow that the great fish was very possibly a freak of nature--
i.e. an anomaly -- then we can avoid all the quarrelling whether or not it was
able to swallow a man.

● Jonah 1:17b . . Jonah was inside the fish three days and three nights.

According to Gen 1:4-5; day is when there's light, and night is when there's
darkness.

Gen 1:14-16 further defines day on Earth as when the sun is up, and night
on Earth is when the sun is down.

According to John 11:9-10, Jesus defined day and night in accord with Gen
1:14-16.

So then, when we see days in passages like Matt 12:40 and Rev 21:23-25,
we are safe to insist that they are not talking about calendar days
consisting of 24 hours apiece, rather, actual physical days when the sun is
up.

Now, this may seem like a superfluous point, but there are quite a few Bible
students out there making the mental knee-jerk mistake of assuming that
the days of Matt 12:40 began at sundown, when in reality that's when nights
began in Israel back when Jesus was living there.
_

 

[Nehemiah6]

It seems as he was dying Jonah was praying to God and afterwards at some point God called himself back to life.

It would appear that Jonah did die and was resurrected, since he went to Sheol (just as Christ went to Sheol).

 

[garee]

Is not the signe of Johan no sign at all?

It was the rendering or mixing of the two parables. Two witnesses to one event . Difference is Jonas did the work reluctantly. .Jonas the sign as a wonder pointed to its fulfillment , the last sign and or with as wonder given.

The garden, cross and tomb demonstrations rolled together equals three days in the heart of the earth ."Heart of the earth" living hell or "belly of the whale". The suffering of the letter of the law . . The living sufferings we experience daily in these bodies of death.

Yoked with Christ (sabbath rest) the sufferings load is made lighter.

Some who have been given a new spirit will rise on the last day . others will not. There corrupted bodies will return to the dust and the temporal spirit under the letter of the law (death) will return to the father of all spirit life who gave it temporarily .

 

[bojack]

I heard a preacher that said Jonah drowned, the whale probably spit him up on shore near Nineveh where at least a couple Ninevites witnessed him get resurrected .. And probably the story spread like wildfire throughout the land as Jonah preached to repent..