Did the LORD Violate Human Free Will???

[Jason0047]

When Job accused God of creating evil, how did God defend Himself.
There is your answer.

Uh, Job did not accuse God of doing evil. Job questioned God as to why he suffered. There is a difference. For Job knew God was good. If he didn't believe that, then he would have believed his wife and cursed God and then died. But that didn't happen. Job held out a long time in his suffering for the Lord. Why? Because he loved God.

 

[Sophia]

While I am glad that works for you, that is not the case according to Scripture and real life application of sinful men who need the Savior every day. For Scripture says, it is the fear of the Lord that is the beginning of wisdom. It also says it is the fear of the Lord that men depart from evil, too. So you response here is a lack of understanding of what the Scriptures are actually saying.



Well, you have nothing to worry about. I do not believe in Works Salvionism. I am strongly against it. In fact, I have argued plenty of times with Works Salvationists before. I believe that Holiness and fruitful works is the result of salvation. It is merely the proof in the pudding that your faith is true or that God lives within you. For God (Christ) is the source of your salvation. The answer of salvation is not in what you do, but it is in yield and or surrendering your heart to God in Godly sorrow. This then begins the transformation or regeneration of one's spirit whereby God does the good work within the beleiver.

For I am saved right now and right here by God's grace. I do not need to go out tomorrow and do something in order to be saved. God's grace. Yep. That's the ticket. The only way. Not of works. If I sin again, then I get my heart right with the Lord by confessing that sin to the Lord. It takes no effort to confess and or repent. For such things are not works. It is merely being broken before God.



And you misunderstood.

*Gives you back the box*



Perfect love casts out fear. But in the beginning one fears the Lord's Judgment and repents of their sins. If there is no Godly sorrow at their acceptance of God, then what are they actually being forgiven of? How are they really grateful? What are they being saved from? Do they value their salvation if they are not sorrowful over their sin and afraid of God's Judgment? For 2 Corinthains 5:11 says, "Therefore, knowing the fear of the Lord, we persuade men..."

Fear is the beginning of wisdom, and the beginning of Salvation,
but love drives out fear, and we have not been given a spirit of fear. We are perfected and sanctified outside of fear.
Fear does not produce works of holiness, but works of flesh. It brings us to repentance, but does not keep us. The Spirit keeps us.

 

[Jason0047]

You have a very hand-tied God.

I believe God controls both good and evil for his glorious purpose, but I do not believe God created evil, sin, and or wicked people. Man chose to be wicked, evil, and sinful over their own free will choice. God did not push man to be evil. It was man's choice. Man's free will to do evil.

 

[Jason0047]

Fear is the beginning of wisdom, and the beginning of Salvation,
but love drives out fear, and we have not been given a spirit of fear. We are perfected and sanctified outside of fear.
Fear does not produce works of holiness, but works of flesh. It brings us to repentance, but does not keep us. The Spirit keeps us.

I would agree with what you said here. It is not in conflict with what I have said so far. Again, I ask you, did God create evil, sin,, and wicked beings? Or did man choose sin and evil? Or is there some kind of third alternative?

 

[Sophia]

I would agree with what you said here. It is not in conflict with what I have said so far. Again, I ask you, did God create evil, sin,, and wicked beings? Or did man choose sin and evil? Or is there some kind of third alternative?

If man had a choice to choose it, then it was already created.
There is only One Creator.

The other option is Zoroastrian dualism, where God creates all good, and the devil creates all bad, and people have to choose between the two.
Humans did not create the concept of evil, but they did and do perform it. Satan did not create anything.

 

[SeaBass]

So you've said before. It isn't true.

How can it not be true when that is exactly what John is saying?

No. As the verse immediately following states, confessing is what is necessary to be cleansed.

Walking in the light is what brings about the cleansing of sins is what John said. In 1 Jn 1:7 the conjunction "and" ties the walking to the cleansing......"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."

Absolutely true. Therefore, walking in the light is not for cleansing or clinging to righteousness, but because of having been cleansed and therefore walking in the works Christ has prepared for us beforehand (Ephesians 2:10).

The language of 1 Jn 1:7 is too clear. You made an erroneous statement and are now trying to rewrite the last verses of 1 Jn 1.

 

[Zmouth]

The whole concept of "human rights" is a gratuitous assumption with no Biblical basis as held by the world & enshrined in the Declaration of Independence.

John 8:36
36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
KJV

 

[Zmouth]

The whole concept of "human rights" is a gratuitous assumption with no Biblical basis as held by the world & enshrined in the Declaration of Independence.

If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
John 8:36

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:2

But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Matt 9:13

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1 John 3:7-9

 

[Jason0047]

If man had a choice to choose it, then it was already created.
There is only One Creator.

The other option is Zoroastrian dualism, where God creates all good, and the devil creates all bad, and people have to choose between the two. Humans did not create the concept of evil, but they did and do perform it. Satan did not create anything.

So you are saying that God did create evil? Yes?

You have to realize that God allowing for the capacity or the potential for evil is not the same thing as directly creating evil. There is a difference. God did not create Adam, Eve, and the devil in a rebellious or sinful state. Nor did God force them to be evil, either (As if that was their only choice).

The Scriptures say, "He that commits sin is of the devil because the devil sinned from the beginning" (1 John 3:8).

Meaning, exactly that. You are of the devil and not of God when you commit sin. So it is true that God creates all things that are good and the devil only does that which is evil and sinful and seeks to destroy. Granted, the devil does not actually have creative powers like God in any way. But the Scriptures do say you are in association with the devil and or his kingdom when you do sin and or evil.

It is also true that people have a choice to choose between God and the devil in this life. When you choose yourself and or sin, you are choosing the devil. But if you repent of your sins and accept Jesus Christ as your Savior, then you would be of God's Kingdom. This is a choice. It is your free will choice.

God did not directly create evil. God created free willed beings who had the potential to do either good or evil. God did not create beings who would only do evil as if that was their only choice. No, no. Most certainly not. Neither did God create waves of evil like it was some kind of evil cloud of death that would zap people into being evil. Man chose evil in the garden and we have been living with the consequences ever since.

Evil is anything outside of God's will and goodness. God might have laid the ground rules for what potential evil was going to be, but evil would not come into existence until his creation chose to bring that evil into his world of their own free will choice. For you have to understand that God did not directly create evil. His creation was given the choice to either choose good or evil. This is free will. Unless you believe God forced man and or angels to do evil. Is that what you believe?

 

[Jason0047]

Side Note:

As for Zorro: Let's try and leave that masked vigilante out of this conversation for a while and stick to what the Bible actually says. For you have to understand that associating a teaching within a false religion is not necessarily grounds to discount what the Bible actually teaches. For the RCC believes in the Trinity, but just because they believe that, does not mean they are a true church of God that lives according to how the apostles lived in the NT. In other words, show me Scripture and not what some religion says.

 

[Jason0047]

Also, when I say that you have free will to do evil, that does not mean God approves of you doing evil. What "free will" means is that God has allowed people the capacity or choice to do evil (Even if God disagrees with their sinful or evil choice).

 

[Sophia]

So you are saying that God did create evil? Yes?

You have to realize that God allowing for the capacity or the potential for evil is not the same thing as directly creating evil. There is a difference. God did not create Adam, Eve, and the devil in a rebellious or sinful state. Nor did God force them to be evil, either (As if that was their only choice).

The Scriptures say, "He that commits sin is of the devil because the devil sinned from the beginning" (1 John 3:8).

Meaning, exactly that. You are of the devil and not of God when you commit sin. So it is true that God creates all things that are good and the devil only does that which is evil and sinful and seeks to destroy. Granted, the devil does not actually have creative powers like God in any way. But the Scriptures do say you are in association with the devil and or his kingdom when you do sin and or evil.

It is also true that people have a choice to choose between God and the devil in this life. When you choose yourself and or sin, you are choosing the devil. But if you repent of your sins and accept Jesus Christ as your Savior, then you would be of God's Kingdom. This is a choice. It is your free will choice.

God did not directly create evil. God created free willed beings who had the potential to do either good or evil. God did not create beings who would only do evil as if that was their only choice. No, no. Most certainly not. Neither did God create waves of evil like it was some kind of evil cloud of death that would zap people into being evil. Man chose evil in the garden and we have been living with the consequences ever since.

Evil is anything outside of God's will and goodness. God might have laid the ground rules for what potential evil was going to be, but evil would not come into existence until his creation chose to bring that evil into his world of their own free will choice. For you have to understand that God did not directly create evil. His creation was given the choice to either choose good or evil. This is free will. Unless you believe God forced man and or angels to do evil. Is that what you believe?

Evil is not a created entity. Nothing has been created except what God created.
Spin all you want, but God's Soveriegnty is not something to mock or diminish.

 

[Sophia]

Also, when I say that you have free will to do evil, that does not mean God approves of you doing evil. What "free will" means is that God has allowed people the capacity or choice to do evil (Even if God disagrees with their sinful or evil choice).

Hence, the idea of free-will makes mankind sovereign, and therefore responsible...
rather than the Biblical truth that God alone is Sovereign, and yet man is responsible.
You rationality is simply manmade to justify something at mankind has not been given to understand.
Talking back to God is foolishness. His ways are not your ways, as they are higher than what any of us can understand.
Stop apologizing for what God has revealed, and simply accept what He says of Himself.

God never spoke of man's free-will, nor ever suggested such a thing, but contradicted such thoughts.
Man invented the idea of free-will. It doesn't come from the Bible, but from the false prophet Zoroaster.

 

[Jason0047]

Evil is not a created entity.

Yes, I realize that.

Nothing has been created except what God created.

I will ask you again, did God directly create evil, sin, or wicked people?
If he didn't create these things, then who did?

Spin all you want, but God's Soveriegnty is not something to mock or diminish.

What exactly am I spinning?

As for God's Sovereignty: Where exactly did I mock or diminish it? I said I believe God can control both good and evil for his ultimate purposes and plans. Is that not enough for you? If it is not enough, in what way am I diminishing it?

 

[Sophia]

I will ask you again, did God directly create evil, sin, or wicked people?
If he didn't create these things, then who did?

No, God did not create evil. No one created it.
By labeling it, God defined it...
which amounts to "indirect", not direct.

 

[Jason0047]

Hence, the idea of free-will makes mankind sovereign, and therefore responsible...

Well, we are created in God's image and we will be held responsible at a Judgment of some kind.

rather than the Biblical truth that God alone is Sovereign, and yet man is responsible.

Responsible in what way? Does this responsibilty involve doing good versus say evil? You know... a free will choice?

You rationality is simply manmade to justify something at mankind has not been given to understand.

Yeah, but that statement doesn't really mean anything unless you can back it up with Scripture.

Talking back to God is foolishness. His ways are not your ways, as they are higher than what any of us can understand.
Stop apologizing for what God has revealed, and simply accept what He says of Himself.

I can say the same to you, but the real proof in the pudding is in backing up that statement with God's Word. I have already provided verses to support what I have said and you have failed to explain them.

God never spoke of man's free-will, nor ever suggested such a thing, but contradicted such thoughts.
Man invented the idea of free-will. It doesn't come from the Bible, but from the false prophet Zoroaster.

There is no mention of people going to the bathroom in the Bible like they are supposed to, but that doesn't mean they didn't go to the bathroom. Also, Modern words does not make a thing true or not. You don't even have to call it "free will." You can call it whatever you like. But the reality or fact of the matter is that there is a choice on the part of man to choose either good or evil.

 

[Jason0047]

No, God did not create evil. No one created it.
By labeling it, God defined it...
which amounts to "indirect", not direct.

Oh good. I am happy to hear that. Now onto the next hurdle. Do you believe God influenced Adam, Eve, or the devil to do evil in any way?

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

While freedom is good in itself, it also allows the potential for evil. Hence, free will made evil possible.

However, while God is responsible for the fact of freedom (which made evil possible), free creatures themselves (e.g., Lucifer and Adam originally and one-third of the angels as well as each new person except for the Christ ever born since) are responsible for their acts of freedom (which make evil actual).

God gave the power of choice to both angels and humans and instead of choosing to obey and follow the good one-third of the angels and every human except for Christ disobeyed and exercised free choice for sin.

Evil originally arose through the freewill acts by initially good creatures that God made.

did God directly create evil, sin, or wicked people?

 

[Sophia]

There is no mention of people going to the bathroom in the Bible like they are supposed to, but that doesn't mean they didn't go to the bathroom. Also, Modern words does not make a thing true or not. You don't even have to call it "free will." You can call it whatever you like. But the reality or fact of the matter is that there is a choice on the part of man to choose either good or evil.

actually, there are several examples of people going to the bathroom in Scripture. Ehud killed a man who was on the toilet.

Free-will is not simply "choice" but is very specific, and denies God's sovereignty.

 

[Sophia]

It's not as simple as the duality of choose A or choose B.
Adam had that choice, but his representative choice set the pace of slavery.
Free-will does not exist, at least for any sinner... which none of us can deny that we are.
We are born in bondage to sin.
thus we need new birth.

God chooses us. On our own, we only choose self and sin, and never choose to serve God. That's why He sent His Son, and that's why the Son sent the Spirit.