Dispensationalism...

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chess-player

Active member
Jul 14, 2022
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Well, i made a short pawn move because you are a chess player.

Next move - When did God first enact His Plan?
AND
What make syou think God is done "forever" with the earthbound nation Israel?
Because He judged them according to the law since they refused to be saved by grace. An Israel without a temple ceased to be the moment their empty temple was destroyed in A.D. 70.

Let me ask you a question. On what grounds does a Christian stand?
Just how does it diminish the cross? You’re joking, right?
Jesus finished redemption on the cross for all time and for all people regardless of race, culture, nationality, or language, therefore, to believe that the Jews will be saved in the future not only denies that all people are equal to Him without any partiality (Jews being "chosen" or special above everyone else) but also pushes redemption beyond the end of history to start a 'special period of salvation just for them (the so-called Millennium) where Christ will have to save them in a separate way after He dealt with all the world (non-Jews).

Makes sense? 🥸
 
Aug 2, 2021
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Because He judged them according to the law since they refused to be saved by grace. An Israel without a temple ceased to be the moment their empty temple was destroyed in A.D. 70.

Let me ask you a question. On what grounds does a Christian stand?


Jesus finished redemption on the cross for all time and for all people regardless of race, culture, nationality, or language, therefore, to believe that the Jews will be saved in the future not only denies that all people are equal to Him without any partiality (Jews being "chosen" or special above everyone else) but also pushes redemption beyond the end of history to start a 'special period of salvation just for them (the so-called Millennium) where Christ will have to save them in a separate way after He dealt with all the world (non-Jews).

Makes sense? 🥸
i am asleep as i write this to you = will respond tomorrow zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
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Well let's see if that is precisely what we find in the Bible regarding why he was deemed righteous.

7And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. (Gen 6:7,8) And the Bible says that we are justified by grace through FAITH. So Noah had faith in God at this point. Period. But the Ark was not even mentioned at this point.

So we go further to verse 14, and that is when God commanded Noah to build the Ark. And it was another 120 years before the Ark was completed. No doubt his faith was also behind the building of the Ark (Heb 11:7), but Noah had been justified by grace long before he started and finished the ark.

Which means that God imputed righteousness to Noah BEFORE he obeyed God. And that applies to Abraham and every person who was (and is) justified by grace through faith. See Romans 4. Romans 4 says that if justification is based on works, it is no longer based upon faith.

Too many Christian have absolutely no idea about the meaning of imputed righteousness. Therefore they misrepresent justification by grace through faith. Which is now faith in Christ and His finished work of redemption.
As the word states Noah became heir of righteousness when? After belief and taking action concerning that belief:

"By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith." Heb 11:7
 

GRACE_ambassador

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Feb 22, 2021
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Midwest
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oh really? so when they come back into obedience as Paul says .... they will then inherit the land .... right?
Since Paul is of Israel, would he not be a recipient of that inheritance?

They were church, the promise made to the church is heaven ... the promise made to the Jews is the earth.
In your perspective you seem to be saying that Paul and Peter ceased being Israel the moment they turned to Christ?

Dispensation simply means administration.
Or by your words, that Paul and Peter switched administrations?

Nobody imagined that the Jews would inherit anything apart from Christ ... they will be converted, they will repent, they will mourn for Him whom they have pierced.
And here you state that Jews don't inherit anything without Christ. Therefore nothing is received under the antiChrist-Israel "administration"?

If that is your position, the logical conclusion is that the antiChrist-Israel "administration" does not inherit or lead to the inheritance of anything: only the "administration" under Christ, that includes true-Israel, inherits anything.

Either you have a logical contradiction you are endorsing, or you agree that Israel without Christ does not inherit anything. If you still claim that Israel without Christ receives anything, what you are saying makes no sense.
 

Beckie

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2022
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Just how does it diminish the cross? You’re joking, right?
I dont have good writing abilities . Yes dispensationalism diminishes the Cross . Your own posted words do. I am not going to relocate that post. Dispensationalism teaches the physical blood of a Jewish person will save them. Which makes me wonder if a person who is half Jewish is half saved. Dispensationalism teaches animal sacrifices will resume. How does that fact not diminish the Cross of Thee Sacrifice. Yeah some of my words may read silly but a life time of dispensational teaching has lead to those silly conclusions. I believe the birth, death, and resurrection of God's Son , simply said the Cross, is the center of God's History .

Jesus prayed for His people to be one Dispensationalism divides His people, offers a different gospel to Israel. Salvation is only through the Blood of Christ. Dispensationalism teaches ruling and reigning is the hope of glory while the scriptures say this.

Col_1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory
Dispensationalism ignores , changes the very words of Jesus. Another case in point to that fact is Jesus plainly says resurrection is the last day . Dispensation teaches time continues after the resurrection.
 

Ethan1942

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Jul 23, 2022
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I agree the KJ has it right, "this generation" which generation? the generation which is alive and who witness all the signs Jesus has been talking about ... all the signs Jesus spoke about did not come to pass in 70 ad.
If you are talking about a generation that are hundreds of years distant, you use the word "that" as in the KJV -

"Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways." (Heb 3:10, KJV)
 

Ethan1942

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Jul 23, 2022
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Covenants, Dispensations and the Rapture

The phrases "covenant of works", "covenant of grace" or "covenant of redemption" are not in the Bible, they are theological constructions. We do have the "Old Covenant" and "New Covenant" clearly stated in the Bible, the exact wording.

The word "dispensation" is not found in the NET2 Bible, the REB, NRSV, GNB, Weymouth NT, CEV or Williams NT. Rather than "dispensation" you find the words "stewardship", "a commission", "a trust" and "the task assigned". The Greek word for "dispensation" is "G3622 οἰκονομία oikonomia" and it is used in Isaiah 22:19, 21 in the Septuagint where it is translated "administration".

Theologians and men of God have used the word "dispensation" in the past, but nothing like these absurd uses of today. Two examples:

Joseph Benson, 18th century Methodist on Isa. 2:2 - "The Jews, it must be observed, divided the times or succession of the world into three ages or periods: the first, before the law; the second, under the law; the third, under the Messiah: which they justly considered as the last dispensation, designed of God to remain till the consummation of all things. “Accordingly St. Paul tells us, that Christ appeared επι συντελεια των αιωνων , at the consummation of the ages, or several periods of the world, Hebrews 9:26; and, speaking of his own times, saith, τελη των αιωνων , the ends of the world, or conclusion of the ages, are come, 1 Corinthians 10:11."

R.L. Dabney, 18th century Presbyterian: "We conceive the familiar and established division to be correct,which makes two dispensations only, the Old Testament and the New."

That misused word "rapture" is found nowhere in any translation that refers to the return of Christ on the last day. The word can be found in some translations as read in the following:

"Then when you reach the hill of God, where the Philistine governor resides, you will meet a company of prophets coming down from the shrine, led by lute, drum, fife, and lyre, and filled with prophetic rapture...When they reached the hill there was a company of prophets coming to meet him, and the spirit of God suddenly took possession of him, so that he too was filled with prophetic rapture...When the prophetic rapture had passed, he went home." (1Sam 10:5, 10 13, REB)

"And Zechariah his father was filled with the Holy Spirit, and spoke in a rapture of praise." (Luke 1:67, Weymouth)

The etymology of the word "rapture" is an eye-opener:

rapture (n.)
c. 1600, "act of carrying off" as prey or plunder, from rapt + -ure, or else from French rapture, from Medieval Latin raptura "seizure, rape, kidnapping," from Latin raptus "a carrying off, abduction, snatching away; rape" (see rapt). The earliest attested use in English is with women as objects and in 17c. it sometimes meant rape (v.), which word is a cognate of this one.

The sense of "spiritual ecstasy, state of mental transport or exaltation" is recorded by c. 1600 (raptures). The connecting notion is a sudden or violent taking and carrying away. The meaning "expression of exalted or passionate feeling" in words or music is from 1610s."
https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=rapture

The biblical Hebrew or Greek is not to be found behind the word "rapture". There is NO passage in the Bible describing the dispensationalists "rapture". It must be read into Scripture out of man's perverse mind.
 

Ethan1942

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Jul 23, 2022
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But you don't do you, Paul says they will be accepted who were rejected ... you refuse to believe it, you say they are cast off forever.
If I ever wrote that the physical Jews were "cast off forever", I surely erred and mistyped. My belief is, they are cast off the promised land forever and ever. They had the entire land promised to them, they became so wicked that God did what he told them he would do, he cast them out of the promised land. There have been Jews all through the centuries whom God granted repentance and they came to Jesus Christ as their Messiah and Savior. So, I've never said, or meant to say they were cast off in that regard.
 

Ethan1942

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Jul 23, 2022
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oh really? so when they come back into obedience as Paul says .... they will then inherit the land .... right?
There is no Scripture I know that suggests such a thing as the Jews returning to the promised land. The come into the body of Christ, the New Covenant congregation of God.
 
Aug 2, 2021
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Since Paul is of Israel, would he not be a recipient of that inheritance?



In your perspective you seem to be saying that Paul and Peter ceased being Israel the moment they turned to Christ?



Or by your words, that Paul and Peter switched administrations?



And here you state that Jews don't inherit anything without Christ. Therefore nothing is received under the antiChrist-Israel "administration"?

If that is your position, the logical conclusion is that the antiChrist-Israel "administration" does not inherit or lead to the inheritance of anything: only the "administration" under Christ, that includes true-Israel, inherits anything.

Either you have a logical contradiction you are endorsing, or you agree that Israel without Christ does not inherit anything. If you still claim that Israel without Christ receives anything, what you are saying makes no sense.
Then there arose a dispute between some of John’s disciples and the Jews about purification. And they came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, He who was with you beyond the Jordan, to whom you have testified—behold, He is baptizing, and all are coming to Him!”

John answered and said, “A man can receive nothing unless it has been given to him from heaven."
You yourselves bear me witness, that I said, ‘I am not the Christ,’ but, ‘I have been sent before Him.’
He who has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom’s voice.
 
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Because He judged them according to the law since they refused to be saved by grace. An Israel without a temple ceased to be the moment their empty temple was destroyed in A.D. 70.

Let me ask you a question. On what grounds does a Christian stand?


Jesus finished redemption on the cross for all time and for all people regardless of race, culture, nationality, or language, therefore, to believe that the Jews will be saved in the future not only denies that all people are equal to Him without any partiality (Jews being "chosen" or special above everyone else) but also pushes redemption beyond the end of history to start a 'special period of salvation just for them (the so-called Millennium) where Christ will have to save them in a separate way after He dealt with all the world (non-Jews).

Makes sense? 🥸

ALL nations can only be saved by One Messiah who shed His Blood when HE offered Himself as a Pure Sinless Sacrifice on the Cross.
Because HE committed no sin the grave could not hold HIM and HE rose from the grave fulfilling the Prophecy of Jonah.
HE then ascended to the Right Hand of the Father fulfilling the Mercy Seat described in the Torah, where HE forever makes intercession on behalf of those whom the FATHER has called unto HIS SON.


"The true Light who gives light to every man was coming into the world. He was in the world, and though the world was made through Him, the world did not recognize Him. He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But to all who did receive Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God— children born not of blood, nor of the desire or will of man, but born of God."
John ch1

My Bishop takes your Rook on this move = Matthew 23:37-39
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling!
Look, your house is left to you desolate.
For I tell you that you will not see Me again until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.’”
 

chess-player

Active member
Jul 14, 2022
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ALL nations can only be saved by One Messiah who shed His Blood when HE offered Himself as a Pure Sinless Sacrifice on the Cross.
Because HE committed no sin the grave could not hold HIM and HE rose from the grave fulfilling the Prophecy of Jonah.
HE then ascended to the Right Hand of the Father fulfilling the Mercy Seat described in the Torah, where HE forever makes intercession on behalf of those whom the FATHER has called unto HIS SON.


"The true Light who gives light to every man was coming into the world. He was in the world, and though the world was made through Him, the world did not recognize Him. He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But to all who did receive Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God— children born not of blood, nor of the desire or will of man, but born of God."
John ch1

My Bishop takes your Rook on this move = Matthew 23:37-39
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling!
Look, your house is left to you desolate.
For I tell you that you will not see Me again until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.’”
I have already quoted these verses before, so I don't know what your point is. Your move is illegal, so my rook remains in its square.
 
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I have already quoted these verses before, so I don't know what your point is. Your move is illegal, so my rook remains in its square.
Move is Legal = see Posts 7, 79, 89, 90

My Bishop takes your Rook on Matthew 23:37-39 = see Post 102, 108, 109, 115
 

chess-player

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Jul 14, 2022
205
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Move is Legal = see Posts 7, 79, 89, 90

My Bishop takes your Rook on Matthew 23:37-39 = see Post 102, 108, 109, 115
Once again, what is your point with the scriptures you posted? I know them by memory, and I use them against dispensationalists when they try to ignore that the Lord gave Jerusalem an ultimatum if they didn't repent.
 
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Once again, what is your point with the scriptures you posted? I know them by memory, and I use them against dispensationalists when they try to ignore that the Lord gave Jerusalem an ultimatum if they didn't repent.
i am not a Dispenshead, so we do not need to address that.
i am not a Christian Zionist
There remains Prophecy concerning Israel according to the flesh that has yet to be fulfilled.

Matt23:37-39 counters your Post 159, 189 where you are aluding to God being forever done with Israel.

Peace
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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i am not a Dispenshead, so we do not need to address that.
i am not a Christian Zionist
There remains Prophecy concerning Israel according to the flesh that has yet to be fulfilled.

Matt23:37-39 counters your Post 159, 189 where you are aluding to God being forever done with Israel.

Peace
See Joel 2-3…
 
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Agree

Here is the scripture you have been evading.

This is the PLACE where the LORD restores the Third that HE brings thru the Fire.


For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. 15For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
16For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
19You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

ONLY ONE TREE Brother for the Jew and the Gentile
 

chess-player

Active member
Jul 14, 2022
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i am not a Dispenshead, so we do not need to address that.
i am not a Christian Zionist
There remains Prophecy concerning Israel according to the flesh that has yet to be fulfilled.

Matt23:37-39 counters your Post 159, 189 where you are aluding to God being forever done with Israel.

Peace

No, I disagree. Israel's only connection with God was with the law. When the temple was destroyed, they ceased to be God's people forever, since the law was removed to give room for the Spirit to indwell in temples made out of flesh and bones: us!


Lastly, God has only people, not two, much less a nation.