Do i have to Keep the Sabbath or was it only for Israel?

[Magenta]

I think you are trying hard there but struggling to wrap your head around some things.

Uh, no. I think you missed the dots completely. False teachers mislead people who are lacking in knowledge.

Also, there are the fruit of the flesh and the Spirit as discussed in Galatians 5. Note that knowledge is not mentioned.

1 Corinthians 2:12; Colossians 2:13
1Co 12:8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit,

 

[Soyeong]

God's people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Paul also said, And indeed, there must be differences among
you to show which of you are approved. However, I understand what you are saying. God's purposes will stand.

In Hosea 4:6, the lack of knowledge that they are destroyed by and the knowledge that they have rejected is that they have forgotten the Torah.

 

[Soyeong]

You have quite the mental gymnastics there to 'prove' your point. I was just reading for the plain text meaning because I was in a circumstance to look with fresh eyes. Nonetheless, it is Holy Spirit's job to interpret and teach us, and we are responsible for following God as He shows us.

Colossians 2:16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.

This verse in itself does not have a plain meaning because it could be either the case that Paul was saying not to let anyone judge them for doing those things or for not doing those things, so I don't see how you can accuse me of doing mental gymnastics by saying that we need look at the context of what of what Paul described of the views of the people who were judging them to determine which is the case. The position that all of Scripture is true, that none of it contradicts each other, and that followers of God should follow what God has commanded in it should be as it gets. The people that you consider to be doing mental gymnastics are the ones who think that it makes sense to interpret a servant of God as speaking against obeying His commands and who interpret parts of God's word out to be speaking against following each other.

I have my suspicions about this person's integrity (too?),

What have said that you think calls my integrity into question?

In Jeremiah 31:33, it says that the New Covenant involves God putting the Torah in our minds and writing it on our hearts, so why does taking that position cause you to question my integrity?

 

[Mem]

In Hosea 4:6, the lack of knowledge that they are destroyed by and the knowledge that they have rejected is that they have forgotten the Torah.

God gave them the commandments gave them what their hearts desired without actually taking them back to Egypt. They've always had, and always will have, the opportunity to come out of slavery.

Colossians 2:16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.

This verse in itself does not have a plain meaning because it could be either the case that Paul was saying not to let anyone judge them for doing those things or for not doing those things, so I don't see how you can accuse me of doing mental gymnastics by saying that we need look at the context of what of what Paul described of the views of the people who were judging them to determine which is the case. The position that all of Scripture is true, that none of it contradicts each other, and that followers of God should follow what God has commanded in it should be as it gets. The people that you consider to be doing mental gymnastics are the ones who think that it makes sense to interpret a servant of God as speaking against obeying His commands and who interpret parts of God's word out to be speaking against following each other.


What have said that you think calls my integrity into question?

In Jeremiah 31:33, it says that the New Covenant involves God putting the Torah in our minds and writing it on our hearts, so why does taking that position cause you to question my integrity?

And this context speaks toward freedom, not allowing anyone to place you back under a slave master.

 

[Mem]

Romans 11:
11I ask then, did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery?f Certainly not! However, because of their trespass, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel jealous. 12But if their trespass means riches for the world, and their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!

I'm not completely convinced that Israel rejected Him as much as they failed to completely, and wholeheartedly, follow Him out of Egypt.

But the world works to distract them, keeping them to busy defending their camp to even consider if they've missed the turn that He meant for them to take, in following Him, because the world subconsciously knows (at the least, their god does know) of the greater riches their fullness will bring!

 

[Magenta]

In Hosea 4:6, the lack of knowledge that they are destroyed by and the
knowledge that they have rejected is that they have forgotten the Torah.

Whereas now it is becoming obsolete, having been replaced with a better covenant.

 

[Soyeong]

God gave them the commandments gave them what their hearts desired without actually taking them back to Egypt. They've always had, and always will have, the opportunity to come out of slavery.



And this context speaks toward freedom, not allowing anyone to place you back under a slave master.

If God saved the Israelites out of slavery in Egypt in order to put the under slavery to His law, then it would be for slavery that God sets us free, however, Galatians 5:1 says that it is for freedom that God sets us free, so God gave His law as a gift to teach how to live as people who have been freed from slavery. In Psalms 119:142, God’s law is truth, and in John 8:31-36, it is the transgression of God’s law that puts us in slavery while it is the truth that sets us free. Going back to Egypt is equated with going back to sin, not with repenting and going back to obedience to God.

 

[Mem]

If God saved the Israelites out of slavery in Egypt in order to put the under slavery to His law, then it would be for slavery that God sets us free, however, Galatians 5:1 says that it is for freedom that God sets us free, so God gave His law as a gift to teach how to live as people who have been freed from slavery. In Psalms 119:142, God’s law is truth, and in John 8:31-36, it is the transgression of God’s law that puts us in slavery while it is the truth that sets us free. Going back to Egypt is equated with going back to sin, not with repenting and going back to obedience to God.

What does, "the law was a taskmaster' mean to you?

 

[Ballaurena]

Uh, no. I think you missed the dots completely. False teachers mislead people who are lacking in knowledge.

1 Corinthians 2:12; Colossians 2:13
1Co 12:8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit,

I hope you read the verses in 1 John at least. I was trying to dig into the issue, and in a respectful and honest way.

The person we were discussing, though, sounded more like the deceived than someone intentionally deceiving. A false teacher is not the same as a mistaken teacher, the latter of which we all are to some extent.

As for 1 Corinthians 12:8, it does fit in with what I wrote in my previous post. As I said there, it is one evidence but knowledge isn't the most significant evidence to differentiate the presence of Holy Spirit. It takes time for God to teach us, we don't all start in the same place, and He has to first build-in the traits of resilience (humility, faith to withstand, etc.) before he can completely alter our framework.

 

[TheLearner]

Those verses by themselves leave room for two possible scenarios:

1.) The Colossians weren't keeping God's feasts, they were being judged by Jews because they were not, and Paul was encouraging them not to let any man judge them for not keeping them.

2.) The Colossians were keeping God's feasts, they were being judged by pagans because they were, and Paul was encouraging them not to let any man judge them for keeping them.

In Colossians 2:16-23, Paul described the people who were judging the Colossians as promoting human teachings and precepts, self-made religion, asceticism, and severity to the body, which means that they were being judged by pagans and that the second scenario is the case. Those promoting asceticism and severity to the body would not have been judging people for refraining from celebrating feasts, so it is ironic when people try to use verses where Paul was encouraging the Colossians not to let anyone prevent them from obeying God's commands to justify their refusal to obey God's commands.


In Romans 14:1, the topic of the chapter is in regard to how to handle disputable matters of opinion in which God has given no command, not in regard to whether followers of God should follow God's commands, so nothing in the chapter should be interpreted as speaking against obeying God. For example, in Roman 14:2-3, they were judging and resenting each other over whether or not someone ate only vegetables even though God gave no command to do that.

In Romans 14:4-6, it is speaking about those who eat or refrain from eating unto the Lord, so it is speaking about those who esteem certain days for fasting as a disputable matter of opinion. For example, in the 1st century it had become a common practice to fast twice a week even though God gave no command to do that and people were judging and resenting each other based on whether or not they chose to do that (Luke 18:12). The reason why were are to keep the Sabbath holy is not because man esteemed it as a disputable matter of opinion, but because God rest on it, blessed it, sanctified it, and commanded His people to keep it holy in memorial of when He rested. Paul was not suggesting that we are free to break the Sabbath or disobey God's commands against committing murder, theft, idolatry, adultery, rape, kidnapping, favoritism, or any of God's other commands as long as we are convinced in our own minds that it is ok to rebel against God, but rather that was only said in regard to disputable matters of opinion in which God has give no command.

Colossians 2

Easy-to-Read Version



2 I want you to know that I am trying very hard to help you. And I am trying to help those in Laodicea and others who have never seen me. 2 I want them to be strengthened and joined together with love and to have the full confidence that comes from understanding. I want them to know completely the secret truth that God has made known. That truth is Christ himself. 3 In him all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are kept safe.
4 I tell you this so that no one can fool you by telling you ideas that seem good, but are false. 5 Even though I am far away, my thoughts are always with you. I am happy to see your good lives and your strong faith in Christ.
Continue to Follow Christ Jesus
6 You accepted Christ Jesus as Lord, so continue to live following him. 7 You must depend on Christ only, drawing life and strength from him. Just as you were taught the truth, continue to grow stronger in your understanding of it. And never stop giving thanks to God.
8 Be sure you are not led away by the teaching of those who have nothing worth saying and only plan to deceive you. That teaching is not from Christ. It is only human tradition and comes from the powers that influence[a] this world. 9 I say this because all of God lives in Christ fully, even in his life on earth. 10 And because you belong to Christ you are complete, having everything you need. Christ is ruler over every other power and authority.
11 In Christ you had a different kind of circumcision, one that was not done by human hands. That is, you were made free from the power of your sinful self. That is the kind of circumcision Christ does. 12 When you were baptized, you were buried with Christ, and you were raised up with him because of your faith in God’s power. God’s power was shown when he raised Christ from death.
13 You were spiritually dead because of your sins and because you were not free from the power of your sinful self. But God gave you new life together with Christ. He forgave all our sins. 14 Because we broke God’s laws, we owed a debt—a debt that listed all the rules we failed to follow. But God forgave us of that debt. He took it away and nailed it to the cross. 15 He defeated the rulers and powers of the spiritual world. With the cross he won the victory over them and led them away, as defeated and powerless prisoners for the whole world to see.
Don’t Follow Rules That People Make
16 So don’t let anyone make rules for you about eating and drinking or about Jewish customs (festivals, New Moon celebrations, or Sabbath days). 17 In the past these things were like a shadow that showed what was coming. But the new things that were coming are found in Christ. 18 Some people enjoy acting as if they are humble and love to worship angels.[b] They always talk about the visions they have seen. Don’t listen to them when they say you are wrong because you don’t do these things. It is so foolish for them to feel such pride, because it is all based on their own human ideas. 19 They don’t keep themselves under the control of the head. Christ is the head, and the whole body depends on him. Because of Christ all the parts of the body care for each other and help each other. So the body is made stronger and held together as God causes it to grow.
20 You died with Christ and were made free from the powers that influence this world. So why do you act as if you still belong to the world? I mean, why do you follow rules like these: 21 “Don’t eat this,” “Don’t taste that,” “Don’t touch that”? 22 These rules are talking about earthly things that are gone after they are used. They are only human commands and teachings. 23 These rules may seem to be wise as part of a made-up religion in which people pretend to be humble and punish their bodies. But they don’t help people stop doing the evil that the sinful self wants to do.
Footnotes

1. Colossians 2:8 powers that influence Or “elementary rules of.” Also in verse 20.
2. Colossians 2:18 worship angels Or “worship with angels” (that they see in visions).

 

[TheLearner]

Romans 14

Easy-to-Read Version



Don’t Criticize Others
14 Be willing to accept those who still have doubts about what believers can do. And don’t argue with them about their different ideas. 2 Some people believe they can eat any kind of food,[a] but those who have doubts eat only vegetables. 3 Those who know they can eat any kind of food must not feel that they are better than those who eat only vegetables. And those who eat only vegetables must not decide that those who eat all foods are wrong. God has accepted them. 4 You cannot judge the servants of someone else. Their own master decides if they are doing right or wrong. And the Lord’s servants will be right, because the Lord is able to make them right.
5 Some people might believe that one day is more important than another. And others might believe that every day is the same. Everyone should be sure about their beliefs in their own mind. 6 Those who think one day is more important than other days are doing that for the Lord. And those who eat all kinds of food are doing that for the Lord. Yes, they give thanks to God for that food. And those who refuse to eat some foods do that for the Lord. They also give thanks to God.
7 We don’t live or die just for ourselves. 8 If we live, we are living for the Lord. And if we die, we are dying for the Lord. So living or dying, we belong to the Lord. 9 That is why Christ died and rose from death to live again—so that he could be Lord over those who have died and those who are living.
10 So why do you judge your brother or sister in Christ? Or why do you think that you are better than they are? We will all stand before God, and he will judge us all. 11 Yes, the Scriptures say,
“‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
‘Everyone will bow before me;
everyone will say that I am God.’”
12 So each of us will have to explain to God about the things we do.
Don’t Cause Others to Sin
13 So we should stop judging each other. Let’s decide not to do anything that will cause a problem for a brother or sister or hurt their faith. 14 I know that there is no food that is wrong to eat. The Lord Jesus is the one who convinced me of that. But if someone believes that something is wrong, then it is wrong for that person.
15 If you hurt the faith of your brother or sister because of something you eat, you are not really following the way of love. Don’t destroy anyone’s faith by eating something they think is wrong. Christ died for them. 16 Don’t allow what is good for you to become something they say is evil. 17 In God’s kingdom, what we eat and drink is not important. Here is what is important: a right way of life, peace, and joy—all from the Holy Spirit. 18 Whoever serves Christ by living this way is pleasing God, and they will be accepted by others.
19 So let’s try as hard as we can to do what will bring peace. Let’s do whatever will help each other grow stronger in faith. 20 Don’t let the eating of food destroy the work of God. All food is right to eat, but it is wrong for anyone to eat something that hurts the faith of another person. 21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything else that hurts the faith of your brother or sister.
22 You should keep your beliefs about these things a secret between yourself and God. It is a blessing to be able to do what you think is right without feeling guilty. 23 But anyone who eats something without being sure it is right is doing wrong. That is because they did not believe it was right. And if you do anything that you believe is not right, it is sin.
Footnotes

1. Romans 14:2 any kind of food The Jewish law said there were some foods that Jews could not eat. When they became followers of Christ, some of them did not understand that they could now eat all foods.

 

[TheLearner]

I have my suspicions about this person's integrity (too?), but at least at this point I think I will leave them to God to judge (I haven't read much of the discussion but I see no future in getting into divisive arguments). God doesn't care about doctrine since he isn't after intellect and knowledge (1 Corinthians 1). Really all denominations have their errors (ex. I left strict Sabbath-keeping and clean & unclean meat doctrines only to find my more mainstream Christian college forbade drinking and dancing), and I know of many cases where God clearly led someone to a denomination that other Christians despised as cults and heretics. Two separate people I know of even knew those groups were off but also that God was calling them to them.

Some early SDA believed the false teachings of the Christian Connextion that Jesus was not God.

 

[TheLearner]

rth