Do messianic jews still obey the law of Moses to some point?

[Anamaria1]

Are there different rules to christians from jewish people and other christians? I mean, in this place from Acts 21:20-26 it doesn't look it's totally forbidden for jews to obey the law of Moses somehow:

"When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law. 21 They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs. 22 What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come, 23 so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow. 24 Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law. 25 As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality.”

26 The next day Paul took the men and purified himself along with them. Then he went to the temple to give notice of the date when the days of purification would end and the offering would be made for each of them."

 

[Moses_Young]

Are there different rules to christians from jewish people and other christians? I mean, in this place from Acts 21:20-26 it doesn't look it's totally forbidden for jews to obey the law of Moses somehow:

"When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law. 21 They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs. 22 What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come, 23 so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow. 24 Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law. 25 As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality.”

26 The next day Paul took the men and purified himself along with them. Then he went to the temple to give notice of the date when the days of purification would end and the offering would be made for each of them."

Isn't it one thing to follow a custom so as not to offend someone, and another thing to do it because you think it will save you?

Some people don't eat meat at certain times of the year. Is it wrong to fit into their schedule to fit in with them? Some don't drink alcohol. Is it wrong to abstain so as not to offend them? Paul circumcised Timothy, and many Christian males are circumcised for health reasons, but they don't rely on it as a way of obtaining righteousness. I would say that customs are not wrong, so long as they are recognised as customs, and not a means of righteousness. Whether or not a Christian identifies as a Jew, there are no special rules that apply.

 

[Melach]

its not forbidden to obey law of moses at all. i say its good to obey the laws of moses. the controversy was that some were saying you must obey it to be saved.

if messianic jews want to pretend they are keeping torah they can do so i have no problem with it. i say pretend because no one actually keeps it, there is no temple, there is no gathering at jerusalem for holy days, there is no punishments from the torah being carried out by a beit din today.

but they like to keep the holy days to the best they can and keep the kosher diet. thats fine by me.

its same rules for gentiles and jews in Christ i believe.

 

[SpoonJuly]

There is no such thing as obeying the Law "to some point".
You either obey the Law or you break the Law.

 

[Whispered]

Straight from the Camels mouth. Let Messianic's answer, and why not.

Congregation Beth Adonai
Question:
Do Messianic Jews believe that they should keep the Laws of Moses?

Answer:
Yes and no. The Torah (or Law of Moses) is composed of the 613 Mitzvot, or Commandments, in the Tenach (Old Covenant or Testament) that God gave to Moses on Mount Sinai involving the festivals, the Ten Commandments, sacrifices, kashrut (kosher laws), etc. Generally speaking, Gentile Christianity today maintains that the Law is completely dead now that Yeshua has come and that we should have nothing to do with it.
But Yeshua tells us in Mathew 5:17-19
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Laws or the Prophets: I have not come to abolish but to bring them to fulfillment. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stoke of the pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks the least of these commandments and teaches others to do they same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”
We as Messianic Jews recognize that the Law was never made to get us into Heaven, but that it is a guide to follow to help us walk in the footsteps of Yeshua. The only way to be saved is through faith and grace of our Messiah.
Yeshua said “I am the way, and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” (John 14:6)
We must remember that all of the other Laws fall under the Ten Commandments and that they are now written on our hearts. (Jer. 31:31)

 

[Nehemiah6]

i say pretend because no one actually keeps it, there is no temple, there is no gathering at jerusalem for holy days, there is no punishments from the torah being carried out by a beit din today.

And the Law of Moses makes it crystal clear that if you do not obey it perfectly you are under a curse. James says the same thing, that if you break the Law in one point, you have broken all of it. But Christ took the curse of the Law upon Himself.

The day Christ died, the Law of Moses ended. Therefore the veil within the temple was supernaturally torn from top to bottom, and the way into the Holy of Holies was no longer hidden. That was the day when every Jew should have repented, since it was the ultimate day of Atonement.

 

[Timothy5378]

Both Paul and Peter did not keep the law and were Jews and the leaders...it does not seem James the Lord's brother understood that the law was fulfilled in Christ....but the other two did...Jews have no dif rules than gentiles...but every group I meet of Christian Jews they want to keep the law still...its a shame...But Paul said Peter lived as a Gentile...even in the OT there were not 2 sets of rules for converts....so given the husband has passed...we are free from the law...the 10 commandments are woven all thru the NT...commentaries call this the moral law than is still kept today...but the law of Moses is gone

 

[JaumeJ]

Perhaps James understood well the teaching of His kBrother when He teaches the law is not destroyed. Or when John, in his writings teaaches not to disobey the commandments. Oh, let us not forget in Revelation how we are taught to obey the commandments.

When the Father, our Father, tells us to do something, it is nto a suggesstion. It stems from the perfect knowledge, wiseom and understanding from Him… Befodre throwing out all of the law, try first studying all of it and you will see the onew which Jesus fulfilled and the ones whichare obviously building blocks of Love. God is Love.

 

[Timothy5378]

The LEVITICAL law is gone...we have a new priesthood in Hebrews
..
I read Genisis..Ex..Lev...and half of numbers slowly in one day...i had read many times before...But God stopped me and said...thats not for you...you have already won....

WE have something dif...now a change if the law it says...but Jewish Christians just never seem to get it...like James did not...but Paul and Peter did get it...Peter kill and eat

 

[JaumeJ]

All should know this much, however all should go further in understanding why Jesus teaches not to teach agains the leasst of the laws. It is undersstood best when we review the law and ignore all that are fulfilled by Jesus, Yeshua.

He teaches also the law must be taught with faith, justice and mercy. When Mercy is kept foremost in mind, it is easy to discard the laws calling for punishment.


People are very quick to say the law is no more, yet they are the first wo point the finger at sinners, yet forgetting they too are the same….. Sin is breaking the law. Think about that, and live in the grace afforded by our Savior, but never use it as an excuse to live in sin...that is continuallly breaking the law. When dthis is achievved one is free indeed.

 

[Lanolin]

well the thing is those laws were given when the Israelites entered the promised land, (former canaan) as to how they were to live IN the promised land. As we know from history and the Bible shows us, when they couldnt keep the law they were exiled from the land. To Babylon etc.

Now that many Israelite descendants have returned to the land, maybe they want to try living with their old customs again, hence when celebrating passover, no longer do they need to say 'next year in Jerusalem' if they actually are IN Jerusalem.

if they want to keep those laws and they living somewhere else outside of Israel, well its pretty hard they can only keep so many because they would be under another countries rules and laws, which often conflicts with the ones given to Moses. Thats is why so many jewish people lived in ghettos or isolated communities because the laws could only be kept if everyone did them together.

 

[oldethennew]

if Christ's Commandments aren't written upon one's heart, then, obviously
they will-not/can-not KEEP THEM...
ROMANS 8:7.
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the Law of God,
neither indeed can be.
HEB. 8:10.
For this is the Covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith The Lord;
I will put My Laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts:
and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to Me a people:
1JOHN 2:4.
He that say, I know Him, and keeps not His Commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
MATT. 5:19.
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least Commandments, and shall teach men so,
he shall be called the least in The Kingdom of Heaven:
but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in The Kingdom of Heaven.

the keeping and teaching of the Commandments is going to have a direct impact on every believer's
destiny!!!

 

[Anamaria1]

Of course I know that all christians have the forgiveness only in Jesus, I was just wondering if messianic jews have somehow different relationship to Torah than other christians.

 

[Anamaria1]

Does anybody know if there is a discussion forum for messianic jews somewhere, that is open also for other christians? This would be interesting... 🙂

 

[Guojing]

Are there different rules to christians from jewish people and other christians? I mean, in this place from Acts 21:20-26 it doesn't look it's totally forbidden for jews to obey the law of Moses somehow:

"When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law. 21 They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs. 22 What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come, 23 so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow. 24 Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law. 25 As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality.”

26 The next day Paul took the men and purified himself along with them. Then he went to the temple to give notice of the date when the days of purification would end and the offering would be made for each of them."

You must try to understand how was it like to be a Jew during the transitional period in Acts. The resurrected Christ did not tell the apostles, at any time, that they are now dead to the Law of Moses. Furthermore, you probably heard that Ananias and Sapphira were slain by God for lying, which was obviously against the Law. Peter was there and he was the one who sentenced that their sins will not be forgiven.

Let me put myself in the shoes of a typical Judaizer, one of those who oppose Paul in Acts 15 and 21, and Galatians 1 and 2, to try to understand their objections to Paul.

The Jerusalem leaders are the only persons with authority to say what the true gospel is, and this authority they received direct from Christ. Paul has no comparable authority: any commission he exercises was derived by him from the Jerusalem leaders, and if he differs from them on the content or implications of the gospel, he is acting and teaching quite arbitrarily.

James was the brother of Jesus and lived with Jesus since he was a boy. The original 12 apostles were the only persons with authority to say what the true gospel is, and this authority they received direct from Christ when he was walking on Earth.

Thus, James was certainly correct when he was writing his book of James. He was taught by Jesus in the flesh, who said to keep the Law of Moses (Matt 5:19-20), to a young man who asked Jesus what must he do to gain eternal life, James may have overheard Jesus replying to "keep all the commandments" (Matt 19:17), and "sell all you have and give to the poor" (Matt 19:21).

Thus, we have to understand the book of James from that perspective. The book of James is like a throwback to the Sermon of the Mount.

Paul has no comparable authority. He claimed he got his gospel thru revelation from the ascended Christ in Gal 1

11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

He further claimed that he spent 3 years in Arabia where he probably got those revelations directed from the ascended Christ himself.

15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.

18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.

19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.

The Jerusalem leaders practiced circumcision and observed the law and the customs, but Paul struck on a line of his own, omitting circumcision and other ancient observances from the message he preached, and thus he betrayed his ancestral heritage. This law-free gospel has no authority but its own; he certainly did not receive it from the apostles, who disapprove of his course of action. Their disapproval was publicly shown on one occasion at Antioch, when there was a direct confrontation between Peter and him on the necessity of maintaining the Jewish food-laws.

Those are Paul's claims and no one else could verify the authenticity of his gospel. Why should I, as a Judaizer, believe him over the words of James and the original 12 apostles? As far as I know if Paul differs from them on the content or implications of the gospel, he is acting and teaching quite arbitrarily.

Now he is trying to preach that one can be saved without obeying the Law of Moses and that the Jews need not follow them. How dare he! (Acts 15 and Acts 21)

 

[Anamaria1]

Well I definitely believe that Jesus really appeared to Paul and that Paul is teaching right, how else could it be when the Bible proves for itself that all texts there are inspired by Holy Spirit... or then I didn't understand what you were saying.. and in this text that I quoted in the beginning Paul was following Moses' law about promises...

 

[Guojing]

Well I definitely believe that Jesus really appeared to Paul and that Paul is teaching right, how else could it be when the Bible proves for itself that all texts there are inspired by Holy Spirit... or then I didn't understand what you were saying.. and in this text that I quoted in the beginning Paul was following Moses' law about promises...

You had the benefit of hindsight, being born in a time when you found out the Bible in printed form is true, that means Paul's letters are true as well.

But during the period of Acts, the OT was the only scripture they had. If you put yourself in the mind of a typical Jew who believed in Jesus as your Messiah, it will not surprise anyone that you will oppose Paul and think he is a fraud.

 

[JaumeJ]

Judas was prophesied, the Twelve were prophesied, John the Immerser was profesied but I cannot find anything about Paul in the OT.

He is mentioned and talked about in the New Testament by Paul.

The jury is out on Paul until I learn for certain from the Word that he is truly the Thirteenth apostle as he says he is. Until then, though I read his episstles a lot, I always go to the Great Teacher, Rabboni, for my truth, because it is His, amen.

 

[JaumeJ]

Judas was prophesied, the Twelve were prophesied, John the Immerser was profesied but I cannot find anything about Paul in the OT.

He is mentioned and talked about in the New Testament by Paul.

The jury is out on Paul until I learn for certain from the Word that he is truly the Thirteenth apostle as he says he is. Until then, though I read his episstles a lot, I always go to the Great Teacher, Rabboni, for my truth, because it is His, amen.

P:S: When we consider the writings, the only writings that seem to cause a lot of friction between brothers(sisters) seems to be the teachings of Paul...………… Jesus clears up all….

 

[Guojing]

Judas was prophesied, the Twelve were prophesied, John the Immerser was profesied but I cannot find anything about Paul in the OT.

He is mentioned and talked about in the New Testament by Paul.

The jury is out on Paul until I learn for certain from the Word that he is truly the Thirteenth apostle as he says he is. Until then, though I read his episstles a lot, I always go to the Great Teacher, Rabboni, for my truth, because it is His, amen.

Imagine if I am a Jew and had a peep at Paul's letters that I see believers passing around themselves in Ephesus, Corinth, Galatia.

"My gospel" thrice, "Follow me as I follow Christ", "what I tell you are the commandments of the Lord".

What an arrogant man!