Do you believe in (OSAS) Once Saved, Always Saved?

Webers.Home · Jun 10, 2022

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Jesus' sheep are a gift from his Father.

• John 6:37 . . All that the Father gives me will come to me

It is his Father's will that Jesus lose none of the sheep given to him.

• John 6:39 . . This is the will of Him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all
that He has given me

Jesus came into the world to satisfy his Father's will.

• John 6:38 . . I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the
will of Him who sent me.

Jesus has never yet failed to satisfy his Father' will.

• John 8:29 . . I do always those things that please Him.

Were Jesus to lose even one of the sheep given to him by his Father, it
would be dishonest of him to say that he "always" pleases Him. He would
have to tone his claim down a bit by saying he mostly pleases Him instead of
always.

People who insist that it's possible for Jesus to lose some of the sheep given
to him by his Father; have actually cast a vote of no-confidence in Jesus'
determination to please his Father. It is their implied consent that Jesus is a
so-so shepherd instead of the good shepherd who sacrifices his life to
protect the sheep.

I would suggest that those slanderers use what time they have remaining to
begin preparing themselves for the worst when they pass on.
_

listenyoumustAll · Jun 10, 2022

Snacks said:

He said to him, “Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the greatest and most important command. The second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself.
(Matthew 22:37-39) extending to neighbor is the work done . giving life even to an evil neighbor

Chester · Jun 10, 2022

Webers.Home said:

And yet Jesus did "lose" one of the twelve: He himself says so in John 17:

10 All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them. 11 And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one. 12 While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

Perhaps we can say that Judas was not ever "saved", and that is likely so, but then really none of the 12 disciples were "saved" until after Jesus' death and resurrection was complete: when the church began at Pentecost and the book of Acts.

Snacks · Jun 10, 2022

listenyoumustAll said:

That work is done from a joyful heart as an active display of love and gratitude towards God, not as an attempt to maintain salvation.

FreeGrace2 · Jun 10, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:
Guys, the Gospel is about salvation. The 10 commandments do not lead to salvation. Neither does repentance, by itself.

The Gospel message is that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, died for your sins, and putting your full trust in Him alone for salvation is what saves you.

iow, we are saved by trusting in His work alone. Our works have nothing to do with getting saved. It is our works that sent Him to the cross in the first place.

listenyoumustAll said:

My point was about "repentance by itself".

Repentance is changing your mind. That is the literal Greek meaning. Many people have changed their minds about their lifestyles, etc. But that doesn't save them. They have to specifically believe in the Person and Work of Jesus Christ on the cross as Savior to be saved.

Changing lifestyles does not save.

FreeGrace2 · Jun 10, 2022

Chester said:

That one never believed. Judas did not lose salvation. He never had it. Proven by John 6:70,71.
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

listenyoumustAll · Jun 10, 2022

Snacks said:

Certainly not to maintain salvation. Salvation is a free gift .
Romans 2:14-15 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

. Good works are a manifestation of God in the believer that's all am saying ..

listenyoumustAll · Jun 10, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

FreeGrace2 said:
Guys, the Gospel is about salvation. The 10 commandments do not lead to salvation. Neither does repentance, by itself.

The Gospel message is that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, died for your sins, and putting your full trust in Him alone for salvation is what saves you.

iow, we are saved by trusting in His work alone. Our works have nothing to do with getting saved. It is our works that sent Him to the cross in the first place.

My point was about "repentance by itself".

Repentance is changing your mind. That is the literal Greek meaning. Many people have changed their minds about their lifestyles, etc. But that doesn't save them. They have to specifically believe in the Person and Work of Jesus Christ on the cross as Savior to be saved.

Changing lifestyles does not save.

Excellent " good "people don't enter the kingdom of God ,Believers in Jesus do only .

FreeGrace2 · Jun 10, 2022

Chester:
To answer your point about "really none of the 12 discipels were saved", let's examine John 13-
2 The evening meal was in progress, and the devil had already prompted Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, to betray Jesus.
3 Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under his power, and that he had come from God and was returning to God;
4 so he got up from the meal, took off his outer clothing, and wrapped a towel around his waist.
5 After that, he poured water into a basin and began to wash his disciples’ feet, drying them with the towel that was wrapped around him.
6 He came to Simon Peter, who said to him, “Lord, are you going to wash my feet?”
7 Jesus replied, “You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand.”
8 “No,” said Peter, “you shall never wash my feet.” Jesus answered, “Unless I wash you, you have no part with me.”
9 “Then, Lord,” Simon Peter replied, “not just my feet but my hands and my head as well!”
10 Jesus answered, “Those who have had a bath need only to wash their feet; their whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you.”
11 For he knew who was going to betray him, and that was why he said not every one was clean.

This was during the Last Supper in the Upper Room.
v.2-5 is about Jesus demonstrating humility to His disciples.
v.6-9 Peter didn't understand and didn't want Jesus to humiliate Himself by washing his feet.
Jesus tells him in v.7 that he didn't understand ow but would later.
v.8 Confused Peter thinks "more is better", so he asked Jesus to give him a bath.

Jesus answered that Peter didn't need another bath because he was already "clean", a figure of speech to indicate that Peter was already saved in v.10. Also, Jesus plainly said that 'not everyone of you is clean". And v.11 explains plainly who that was.

Judas left the Last Supper in ch 13. Fast forward to ch 15-
1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.
2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.
3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.

This was said only to the 11 remaining disciples, and Jesus makes clear that all of the 11 are saved (clean).

4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.
6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

These verses speak of having fellowship with the Lord by "remaining" in Him, and He would "remain" in them. The point is that believers can only bear fruit when they are in fellowship with the Lord.

Webers.Home · Jun 10, 2022

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Chester said:

Judas wasn't a sheep. He was a "son of destruction" viz: Judas was assigned
to Jesus for a very different purpose than the other eleven guys.

• Acts 1:15-17 . . In those days Peter stood up among the believers (a group
numbering about a hundred and twenty) and said: Brethren, the scripture
had to be fulfilled which the Holy Spirit spoke long ago through the mouth of
David concerning Judas, who served as guide for those who arrested Jesus

The prophecy to which Peter referred is located in Palm 109:6-8

I think it safe to suggest that Judas is a pretty good example of the tares
spoken of by Matt 13:24-30 and the infiltrators spoken of by 2Cor 11:26.
_

XavierJesusLovesIndia · Jun 10, 2022

Thanks, all, for the responses.

Has anyone who believes OSAS addressed 2 Pet 2:22? AFAIR, no one did. Maybe I missed it, but I don't think so. To me, it is one of the clearest passages (along with Heb 10:29,39; Mat 24, Jn 15 etc) showing real apostasy is possible. The Calvinist view is basically that apostasy is impossible. These warnings are written in the Scripture so that we may not be over-confident of not falling in future. St. Peter himself was over-confident on the night of the Lord's Passion that he would not sin: "33Peter said to Him, “Even if all fall away on account of You, I never will.” Yet he precisely was one of those who fell away most, by denying the Lord 3 times, as the Scriptures show.

We see clearly that by the time of Pentecost, after St. Peter had been filled with the Holy Spirit, and confirmed in Grace, he had changed his mind, and now warns us in his Epistles that falling away is really possible even for genuine believers. Simon Magus also showed this.

We are to Keep Watch and Pray, as Our Lord told His Apostles, so that we may not fall. We are to pray "Lead us not into Temptation". as He Himself taught in the Lord's Prayer. Then, He who promised He will give us whatever we ask for if we persistently pray for it, will grant it.

Now, I want to address a response made to Mat 24. Someone said it refers not to soul salvation but deliverance from physical death.

Let's read the passage again, in Mat 24:

9Then they will deliver you over to be persecuted and killed, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. 10At that time many will fall away and will betray and hate one another, 11and many false prophets will arise and mislead many.

12Because of the multiplication of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold. 13But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.

(1) Now, clearly, the first thing that appears is that the passage is NOT talking about being saved from physical death. It clearly says they will be persecuted and killed. It says their SOULS will be saved, but their bodies will perish through being persecuted and killed.

(2) So, what is it talking about? It's saying that, during the tribulation, wickedness will multiply and the love of many will grow cold. As others pointed out, the word for love here is ἀγάπη (agapē). Only believers can love with agape love. And that shows again that it is believers who will grow cold in their love for the Lord by loving wickedness over Him.

(3) And compare what the Lord said twice in the same Gospel earlier on: "He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it." (10:39) and "For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it." (16:25). Here, the Lord says those who lose physical life for Him will gain eternal life.

And so with all those considered, it's very clear that the Lord is saying the one who perseveres through physical death, tribulations etc, including Martyrdom - unlike those believers who once loved with agape love but then grew cold - will be saved. It IS Soul Salvation imo. God Bless.

Magenta · Jun 10, 2022

XavierJesusLovesIndia said:

2 Peter 2 is talking about false prophets among the people, just as there will be
false teachers. Why do you assume people labeled as false, are true believers???

XavierJesusLovesIndia · Jun 10, 2022

Yes, in the beginning the Apostle speaks of false prophets, false teachers. Interesting, he says the Lord died for these also, which would seem to go against limited atonement: "2:1 "But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves." The verse says the Lord died even for False Prophets, underlining that He died for all.

But, I was speaking of the verses from 20-22, which I quoted in the OP if IIRC: "20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,”[g] and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”

In brief, these 3 verses say:

1) some people escaped the corruption of the world by knowing Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,
2) but they again got entangled in it and were overcome, and therefore
3) the latter state into which they fell is worse than they were in the beginning.

God Bless.

FreeGrace2 · Jun 10, 2022

XavierJesusLovesIndia said:

It seems you believe that if a believer ceases to believe, they lose salvation? Where is that taught? It is not.

As to 2 Pet 2, let's consider the context:
20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.
21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.
22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”

v.20 clearly indicates a believer who "are again entangled in the corruption of the world".
v.21 isn't about ending up in the lake of fire, as many assume or even presume. It is about the rest of their life on earth that will be worse. They will end up without the blessings of God on their lives, and have no reward in eternity.
v.22 is a proverb. A quote from Prob 26:11 - As a dog returns to its vomit, so fools repeat their folly.

The proverb teaches that idiots (fools) repeat their folly. It says nothing about an unsaved person returning to an unsaved state.

This is what Paul taught about those who lose out on blessings and eternal reward:

1 Cor 3-
12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw,
13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work.
14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.
15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

v.12 speaks of works done by divine power (filling of the Holy Spirit), and works done by the power of the flesh. Figurative speech.
v.13 speaks of the Bema, or Judgment Seat of Christ, 2 Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.
v.14 speaks of God's FIRE of evaluation on the believer's works, whether good or bad. If good, the believer will be rewarded.
v.15 speaks of God's FIRE of evaluation on the believer's bad works, and will LOSE (suffer loss) eternal reward, "BUT YET WILL BE SAVED".

So it's clear; believers who only have bad works, or works from the energy of the flesh will lose all potential reward, but still be saved.

The "flames" and "fire" here speak of God's evaluation, just as fire was used to burn off all the impurities in gold.

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. Believes and has are both PRESENT TENSE verbs. This means the very MOMENT one believes savingly in Christ, they POSSESS eternal life. Boom!

John 10:28 -
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Here, we find Jesus teaching that those given eternal life shall never perish. So, when combining John 5:24 and 10:28, we KNOW that from the MOMENT one believes savingly in Christ, they shall never perish.

And notice that Jesus gave no exceptions to this; such as certain sins will cause them to perish, etc.

Eternal security is most certainly taught in Scripture.

This is one of their errors.

The Bible encourages and admonishes believers to continue to believe, for sure. But not for keeping or maintaining salvation.

Acts 11:23 - When he arrived and saw what the grace of God had done, he was glad and encouraged them all to remain true to the Lord with all their hearts.
Acts 14:22 - strengthening the disciples and encouraging them to remain true to the faith. “We must go through many hardships to enter the kingdom of God,” they said.

And never lost his salvation.

Absolutely! But that does NOT mean loss of salvation.

All this is true and doesn't support the notion that salvation can be lost.

That is the point. People WILL BE killed during the Tribulation. iow, they WON'T ENDURE to the end. They won't reach the end of the Tribulation.

No, the text is quite plain. Those who survive the Tribulation wil be saved. They will have persevered.

The words "gain eternal life" refers to something greater than just having eternal life. Just like 2 Pet 1:10,11
10 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble,
11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

There is quite a difference between being welcomed into the eternal kingdom, which will be for every believer, and being RICHLY WELCOMED into the eternal kingdom. This will be part of the eternal rewards that deserving believers will experience.

If all this were true, then Jesus couldn't have been truthful about John 5:24 and 10:28. These 2 words refute the teaching that salvation can be lost.

Magenta · Jun 10, 2022

John 6:37 plus John 10:28

Webers.Home · Jun 10, 2022

Magenta said:

There are sincere folks out and about who honestly believe that the sheep,
of their own free will, can snatch themselves out of the good shepherd's
hand. But the Father's free will trumps the sheep's free will.

• John 6:39 . . This is the will of Him who sent me, that I shall lose none of
all that He has given me.

The very life's blood of Jesus' mission was to satisfy his Father's free will.

• John 4:34 . . My food-- said Jesus --is to do the will of Him who sent me
and to finish His work.

Now, the sheep may not be all that interested in satisfying the Father's will, but
Jesus is far more zealous about it than they; and can boast a 0.0% failure rate.

• John 8:29 . . I do always those things that please Him.

Even were the sheep to manage somehow to snatch themselves out of the
good shepherd's hand, they would still have the Father's hand to overcome;
which isn't likely seeing as how Almighty God has all the powers of Heaven
and Earth at His disposal to keep the sheep right where His free will wants
them to be.

• John 10:9 . . My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no
one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.

The Father's hand combined with His son's hand, represents a very strong
alliance of the two mightiest Titans known to man.

• John 10:30 . . I and the Father are one.
_

Carry_Your_Name · Jun 10, 2022

XavierJesusLovesIndia said:

Walking in the newness of life is like riding a bike. At the beginning it was extremely difficult, you took one fall after another, and no amount of instruction, either in plain text, video tutorials or any other formats could explain how to keep the balance; but there's this one critical threshold in your learning curve, once you cross it, you've got it, it's like all of a sudden a switch is flipped, and the bike no longer throws you down either at your port side or your starboard side, but carries you wherever you wanna go at top speed, and you feel the wind rushing agaisnt your face as though you're flying. And the magically thing is, once you got it, it stays with you forever like a second nature. Even if for a whole decade you have abandoned your bike, the moment you get back up on the wheels, that skill is instantaneously activated in your muscle memory.

So, put your fancy verses aside, just remember this, as long as you ALWAYS know how to ride a bike, you ALWAYS have your salvation. And here's a shocker to you, believe it or not, this brilliant analogy doesn't come from a cyclist, but PASTORS at the pulpit. Not one, but multiple pastors who use this analogy to illustrate OSAS, I've heard it with my own ears and taken it into my heart.

Chester · Jun 11, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

Webers.Home said:

Here is a clear example of putting one's doctrinal preconceptions into use when interpreting Scripture.

If you look carefully at my post 1203 I suggest that Judas likely never was "saved" to begin with: but not believing in OSAS I do not need to impose my doctrine onto a rigid interpretation of the text. I simply leave it like Scripture does: Jesus lost him (whether on not he was "saved" to begin with does not really matter).

But I quickly had two OSAS believers quickly respond to "prove" that Judas was never a sheep to begin with. They use Scriptures that to them prove their point, yet these Scriptures do not directly say that (my opinion

)

Point being this: when you come to a Scripture with a prior doctrinal bias to defend, you must interpret any Scripture in such a way as to keep your doctrine intact.

Chester · Jun 11, 2022

Carry_Your_Name said:

Walking in the newness of life is like riding a bike. At the beginning it was extremely difficult, you took one fall after another, and no amount of instruction, either in plain text, video tutorials or any other formats could explain how to keep the balance; but there's this one critical threshold in your learning curve, once you cross it, you've got it, it's like all of a sudden a switch is flipped, and the bike no longer throws you down either at your port side or your starboard side, but carries you wherever you wanna go at top speed, and you feel the wind rushing agaisnt your face as though you're flying. And the magically thing is, once you got it, it stays with you forever like a second nature. Even if for a whole decade you have abandoned your bike, the moment you get back up on the wheels, that skill is instantaneously activated in your muscle memory.

So, put your fancy verses aside, just remember this, as long as you ALWAYS know how to ride a bike, you ALWAYS have your salvation. And here's a shocker to you, believe it or not, this brilliant analogy doesn't come from a cyclist, but PASTORS at the pulpit. Not one, but multiple pastors who use this analogy to illustrate OSAS, I've heard it with my own ears and taken it into my heart.

What if the cyclist has a brain injury and can't then remember how to ride the bike? Can he still ride the bike?

Carry_Your_Name · Jun 11, 2022

Chester said:

I'm sure amnesia wouldn't hinder that skill since it's embedded in the muscle memory.

Do you believe in (OSAS) Once Saved, Always Saved?

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