Do you believe in (OSAS) Once Saved, Always Saved?

[cv5]

The issue in textual interpretation is never on what view is popular or not, or does it match my doctrine or not.

The issue is what was the author saying by inspiration of the Lord in the context. What does the text actually say?

In Jesus' 7 epistles to the 7 Churches, warnings are made to nonbelievers who are who are unsaved. However, impregnable promises and guarantees are given to those who DO believe.

Furthermore, the elect the saved are foreordained from eternity past to inevitable glorification. These are no contingencies for failure or a plan "B".

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Repent and do the deeds you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your menorah from its place—unless you repent.

Repent then! If not, I will come to you soon and make war against them with the sword of My mouth.

So remember what you have received and heard— keep it, and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come upon you

So because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I am about to spew you out of My mouth.
^
those are found in the Warnings to the 7 Churches.
those don't read like they can keep on sinning and be saved.
it's all in how some choose to interpret God's Word i suppose.

 

[cv5]

There are no contingencies for failure or a plan "B". Further.......Jesus is no loser. He never loses. In fact it is impossible for Him to ever lose one of His own per John 6:39. Also see John 10:27-29.

The most unassailable ironclad guarantees in all of the history of creation.

 

[wattie]

Repent and do the deeds you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your menorah from its place—unless you repent.

Repent then! If not, I will come to you soon and make war against them with the sword of My mouth.

So remember what you have received and heard— keep it, and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come upon you

So because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I am about to spew you out of My mouth.
^
those are found in the Warnings to the 7 Churches.
those don't read like they can keep on sinning and be saved.
it's all in how some choose to interpret God's Word i suppose.

When an entire church is being spewed out of the mouth of God.. is that every single member of that church losing eternal life?

If my church lost the presence of the Holy Spirit because it went off beam.. the members wouldn't lose the Holy Spirit's indwelling. My church would no longer be one God calls His own.. but the members would not lose eternal life.

Context.. context.. context..

There are similar cases in Acts.. where the Holy Spirit is empowering already saved people .. assembled in groups. These people were most of the times mentioned.. already believers.. who receive the Holy Spirit as a group.

As a group !

Sort out the difference between a believer being indwelled individually aka through the book of John.. and the Holy Spirit empowering/being 'in the midst' of a group or church.

Big differences between the work of the Holy Spirit on an individual and a group or church.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

When an entire church is being spewed out of the mouth of God.. is that every single member of that church losing eternal life?

If my church lost the presence of the Holy Spirit because it went off beam.. the members wouldn't lose the Holy Spirit's indwelling. My church would no longer be one God calls His own.. but the members would not lose eternal life.

Context.. context.. context..

There are similar cases in Acts.. where the Holy Spirit is empowering already saved people .. assembled in groups. These people were most of the times mentioned.. already believers.. who receive the Holy Spirit as a group.

As a group !

Sort out the difference between a believer being indwelled individually aka through the book of John.. and the Holy Spirit empowering/being 'in the midst' of a group or church.

Big differences between the work of the Holy Spirit on an individual and a group or church.

where does it say all members of each Church were not committing the sins mentioned by Christ?

 

[wattie]

where does it say all members of each Church were not committing the sins mentioned by Christ?

It doesn't, but the removal of the Holy Spirit from a church as a whole is different from personal indwelling.

From the whole is not soul indwelling, but 'in the midst' presence.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

It doesn't, but the removal of the Holy Spirit from a church as a whole is different from personal indwelling.

From the whole is not soul indwelling, but 'in the midst' presence.

i understand what you're saying but we also have the Church at Corinth as a prime example of a Church BODY gone bad. so there is no reason to think the 7 Churches are not also being held by Leadership and Body accountable.

 

[wattie]

i understand what you're saying but we also have the Church at Corinth as a prime example of a Church BODY gone bad. so there is no reason to think the 7 Churches are not also being held by Leadership and Body accountable.

Yes, they are accountable, as the church at Corinth was. Discipline, rebuke, admonishing..not removal of the Holy Spirit from a person's spirit.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Yes, they are accountable, as the church at Corinth was. Discipline, rebuke, admonishing..not removal of the Holy Spirit from a person's spirit.

the warnings are right there in the Bible and it does include removing the menorah. it's in black ink on white parchment.
the sin is for forsaking their First Love and the references for this meaning can be found in Jeremiah 2:2, 13; and Ezekiel. 16:8, 15-23.

Jeremiah:
2:2 thus says ADONAI: I remember the devotion of your youth, your love as a bride, and the way you followed Me in the wilderness, in a land not sown.

2:13 My people have committed two evils: They have forsaken Me —the spring of living water— and they dug their own cisterns


Ezekiel:
16:8 “Again I passed by and saw you, and behold, you were truly at the time of love. I spread the corner of my garment over you and covered your nakedness. I swore to you and entered into a covenant with you,” says ADONAI. “So you became Mine."

16:15 “But you trusted in your beauty and used your fame to become a harlot. You poured out your enticements on everyone who passed by—they were his. 16 You took your garments, made high places decked out with various colors and fornicated on them—this should not happen, it should not be! 17 You also took your jewelry—My gold and My silver, which I gave you—made male images for yourself and committed harlotry with them. 18 You took your embroidered garments, covered them and placed My oil and My incense before them. 19 My bread that I gave you, fine flour, oil and honey that I fed you with, you set before them as a sweet aroma. That is what happened.” It is a declaration of ADONAI. 20 “You took your sons and your daughters whom you bore for Me, and sacrificed them to be eaten by them. Were your obscene practices not enough? 21 You slaughtered My children, making them pass through fire for them. 22 In all your abominations and harlotry, you have not remembered the days of your youth, when you were naked and bare, kicking about in your blood. 23 So it was after all your wickedness —oy, oy to you!” It is a declaration of ADONAI.


so yes, God is indeed judging them INDIVIDUALLY here!

 

[wattie]

the warnings are right there in the Bible and it does include removing the menorah. it's in black ink on white parchment.
the sin is for forsaking their First Love and the references for this meaning can be found in Jeremiah 2:2, 13; and Ezekiel. 16:8, 15-23.

Jeremiah:
2:2 thus says ADONAI: I remember the devotion of your youth, your love as a bride, and the way you followed Me in the wilderness, in a land not sown.

2:13 My people have committed two evils: They have forsaken Me —the spring of living water— and they dug their own cisterns


Ezekiel:
16:8 “Again I passed by and saw you, and behold, you were truly at the time of love. I spread the corner of my garment over you and covered your nakedness. I swore to you and entered into a covenant with you,” says ADONAI. “So you became Mine."

16:15 “But you trusted in your beauty and used your fame to become a harlot. You poured out your enticements on everyone who passed by—they were his. 16 You took your garments, made high places decked out with various colors and fornicated on them—this should not happen, it should not be! 17 You also took your jewelry—My gold and My silver, which I gave you—made male images for yourself and committed harlotry with them. 18 You took your embroidered garments, covered them and placed My oil and My incense before them. 19 My bread that I gave you, fine flour, oil and honey that I fed you with, you set before them as a sweet aroma. That is what happened.” It is a declaration of ADONAI. 20 “You took your sons and your daughters whom you bore for Me, and sacrificed them to be eaten by them. Were your obscene practices not enough? 21 You slaughtered My children, making them pass through fire for them. 22 In all your abominations and harlotry, you have not remembered the days of your youth, when you were naked and bare, kicking about in your blood. 23 So it was after all your wickedness —oy, oy to you!” It is a declaration of ADONAI.


so yes, God is indeed judging them INDIVIDUALLY here!

Yes judging them.. but removing the individual salvation from them?

Ezra...Israel is continually getting caught up in sins. They rebuild the temple but then it is revealed that they are intermingling with other people.

Ezra.. astonied.. frustrated.. grieving.. what is God doing?

Withholding punishment! Giving grace.

But even if God did wipe out Israel.. that doesn't mean He removed salvation from them individually.

 

[Runningman]

The Bible says a lot of things. There just isn't a verse that plainly says "Once saved always saved," resulting in these kind of threads. If you want OSAS then you can find it in the Bible at the expense of ignoring verses that seem to suggest salvation can be lost.

Furthermore, eternal life seems based on access to the tree of life and access to the tree of life can be revoked per the story of Adam and Eve, thus losing access to immortality.

Genesis 3:22 KJV
22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Revelation 2:7 KJV
7He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who overcomes, I will grant the right to eat from the tree of life in the Paradise of God.

It's possible that continual eating of the tree of life is necesarry to life forever. Adam and Eve lost their access to immortality so why can't anyone else?

 

[FreeGrace2]

The Bible says a lot of things. There just isn't a verse that plainly says "Once saved always saved," resulting in these kind of threads. If you want OSAS then you can find it in the Bible at the expense of ignoring verses that seem to suggest salvation can be lost.

Here's the difference. As you note here, there are "verses THAT SEEM TO SUGGET salvation can be lost".

What you have to IGNORE are the verses that very clearly SAY that those given eternal life shall never perish, and that those sealed with the Holy Spirit are GUARANTEED an inheritance for the day of redemption as God's POSSESSION.

If a person just can't figure out what these verses are saying, they have a huge problem.

Anyway, thanks for clarifying the issue. The OSNAS'ers only have verses THAT SEEM TO SUGGEST salvation can be lost.

And then they completely ignore the clear verses that make very clear that those who believe possess eternal life and shall never perish (John 10:28) and that those who believe are sealed with the Holy Spirit, who is a deposit GUARANTEEING an inheritance for the day of redemption as God's possession.

Eternal security couldn't be said any more clear.

Furthermore, eternal life seems based on access to the tree of life and access to the tree of life can be revoked per the story of Adam and Eve, thus losing access to immortality.

No, eternal life is based on what God promises. John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:40,47 and 1 John 5:13 all say that believers HAVE (as in POSSESS) eternal life. Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall NEVER PERISH in John 10:28.

What's so difficult to understand here?

 

[justpassinthrough]

Paul was preaching to a world wholly turned away from God. Repent and turn to God are synonymous, they mean the same thing.

Yes, this is what the scriptures teach.


If a person is called to turn to God, then they are called to turn away from Satan as their lord.



They way we obey the Gospel command “repent” is to confess Jesus Christ as Lord.




JLB

 

[justpassinthrough]

You are STILL having a very difficult time with the truth.

Post a verse where the apostles preached Jesus’s death for sin payment, and resurrection to life BEFORE Jesus’s did those things.

Or say you are wrong, and they never did.

You will not squirm off this hook!

The Apostles were sent out by Jesus before His death, burial and resurrection to preach the Gospel of the kingdom.


And He called the twelve to Himself, and began to send them out two by two, and gave them power over unclean spirits. He commanded them to take nothing for the journey except a staff—no bag, no bread, no copper in their money belts— but to wear sandals, and not to put on two tunics.
Also He said to them, “In whatever place you enter a house, stay there till you depart from that place. And whoever will not receive you nor hear you, when you depart from there, shake off the dust under your feet as a testimony against them. Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!”
So they went out and preached that people should repent. And they cast out many demons, and anointed with oil many who were sick, and healed them.
Mark 6:7-13

• Are you saying people were not saved under the ministry of Jesus?

The Gospel of the Kingdom of God is — Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand.


Peter preached this on the day of Pentecost —

Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 2:38



If your “gospel” doesn’t have REPENT in it then it’s not the Gospel of Jesus Christ.


Repent is the call of God to “turn to Him”.


The way we obey the Gospel command REPENT, is to confess Jesus Christ as LORD.



JLB

 

[LoveBrokeThru]

How many times does God save you if you are born again?
So, are you saved once, or are you "re-saved" over and over?

Just a little common sense here, and you can get out of this misunderstanding of OSAS.

 

[PennEd]

The Apostles were sent out by Jesus before His death, burial and resurrection to preach the Gospel of the kingdom.


And He called the twelve to Himself, and began to send them out two by two, and gave them power over unclean spirits. He commanded them to take nothing for the journey except a staff—no bag, no bread, no copper in their money belts— but to wear sandals, and not to put on two tunics.
Also He said to them, “In whatever place you enter a house, stay there till you depart from that place. And whoever will not receive you nor hear you, when you depart from there, shake off the dust under your feet as a testimony against them. Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!”
So they went out and preached that people should repent. And they cast out many demons, and anointed with oil many who were sick, and healed them.
Mark 6:7-13

• Are you saying people were not saved under the ministry of Jesus?

The Gospel of the Kingdom of God is — Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand.


Peter preached this on the day of Pentecost —

Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 2:38



If your “gospel” doesn’t have REPENT in it then it’s not the Gospel of Jesus Christ.


Repent is the call of God to “turn to Him”.


The way we obey the Gospel command REPENT, is to confess Jesus Christ as LORD.



JLB

I missed the verse you posted where the apostles preached the death of Jesus for the payment of sin, and His subsequent resurrection.

Either you are STILL prevaricating, or are too prideful to admit they didn’t preach the Gospel unto Salvation, UNTIL after His resurrection.

Which is it?

 

[AndrewMorgan]

Here's the difference. As you note here, there are "verses THAT SEEM TO SUGGET salvation can be lost".

What you have to IGNORE are the verses that very clearly SAY that those given eternal life shall never perish, and that those sealed with the Holy Spirit are GUARANTEED an inheritance for the day of redemption as God's POSSESSION.

If a person just can't figure out what these verses are saying, they have a huge problem.

Anyway, thanks for clarifying the issue. The OSNAS'ers only have verses THAT SEEM TO SUGGEST salvation can be lost.

And then they completely ignore the clear verses that make very clear that those who believe possess eternal life and shall never perish (John 10:28) and that those who believe are sealed with the Holy Spirit, who is a deposit GUARANTEEING an inheritance for the day of redemption as God's possession.

Eternal security couldn't be said any more clear.


No, eternal life is based on what God promises. John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:40,47 and 1 John 5:13 all say that believers HAVE (as in POSSESS) eternal life. Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall NEVER PERISH in John 10:28.

What's so difficult to understand here?

What's "so difficult to understand" is that verses which I've read such as Heb. 6:4 and others seem to warn about the risk of losing salvation. Maybe there are other scriptures that contradict that, but the bottom line is that I'm not convinced either way.
One thought which may be relevant - What about Judas Iscariot? Apparently he believed and wasn't saved at the end.
Another thought - What if someone is very negative and hates the idea being a slave of God and encounters the gospel. Although he hates it, he believes it in the sense of believing the facts are true, but without a change of heart. He continues his worldly life, having contempt for God - even leading others away from God - even encouraging others "to use this loophole".
Eventually he dies after cursing God one last time.
Is he saved?

 

[peldom10]

When an entire church is being spewed out of the mouth of God.. is that every single member of that church losing eternal life?

If my church lost the presence of the Holy Spirit because it went off beam.. the members wouldn't lose the Holy Spirit's indwelling. My church would no longer be one God calls His own.. but the members would not lose eternal life.

Context.. context.. context..

There are similar cases in Acts.. where the Holy Spirit is empowering already saved people .. assembled in groups. These people were most of the times mentioned.. already believers.. who receive the Holy Spirit as a group.

As a group !

Sort out the difference between a believer being indwelled individually aka through the book of John.. and the Holy Spirit empowering/being 'in the midst' of a group or church.

Big differences between the work of the Holy Spirit on an individual and a group or church.

He speaks of individuals...not church.

 

[Runningman]

Here's the difference. As you note here, there are "verses THAT SEEM TO SUGGET salvation can be lost".

What you have to IGNORE are the verses that very clearly SAY that those given eternal life shall never perish, and that those sealed with the Holy Spirit are GUARANTEED an inheritance for the day of redemption as God's POSSESSION.

If a person just can't figure out what these verses are saying, they have a huge problem.

Anyway, thanks for clarifying the issue. The OSNAS'ers only have verses THAT SEEM TO SUGGEST salvation can be lost.

And then they completely ignore the clear verses that make very clear that those who believe possess eternal life and shall never perish (John 10:28) and that those who believe are sealed with the Holy Spirit, who is a deposit GUARANTEEING an inheritance for the day of redemption as God's possession.

Eternal security couldn't be said any more clear.

Do you believe the Bible is the word of God? Yes? Then you must assume they God does not speak impotently.

No, eternal life is based on what God promises. John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:40,47 and 1 John 5:13 all say that believers HAVE (as in POSSESS) eternal life. Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall NEVER PERISH in John 10:28.

What's so difficult to understand here?

Jesus said those who have eternal life will never perish. Totally agree with that. Do those in hell live forever too?

 

[AndrewMorgan]

How many times does God save you if you are born again?
So, are you saved once, or are you "re-saved" over and over?

Just a little common sense here, and you can get out of this misunderstanding of OSAS.

"Common sense" - the poor man's logic! Common sense is what one instinctively believes to be true and is demonstrably unreliable.