Do you believe that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?

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Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?


  • Total voters
    9

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,042
8,375
113
#61
In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.
Indeed. The prosperity gospel conmen being the most odious example.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,131
3,689
113
#62
The term "twelve tribes" is never ever a reference to Christians or even Jewish Christians. It is always a reference to the nation of Israel as a whole. Context matters. Audience matters.

James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,042
8,375
113
#63
The term "twelve tribes" is never ever a reference to Christians or even Jewish Christians. It is always a reference to the nation of Israel as a whole. Context matters. Audience matters.

James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
Saved Jewish believers in the Christ of Glory, their YHVH come in the flesh.
BTW, that statement demolishes the "lost 10 tribes" heresy.
 

Gideon300

Well-known member
Mar 18, 2021
5,368
3,164
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#64
Our salvation is based on grace through faith, and the evidence of our salvation comes from the deeds of our faith. It is not possible to be a Christian and not be carrying out His will in our lives.

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. "And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. "For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. "But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.

- John 3:16-21

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Ephesians 2:8-10
Not true. Many Christians are a mixture of self will and God's will. The Christian life is a process. No one is instantly perfect. As James says, we stumble in many ways. (James 3:2).
 

Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
2,984
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44
#65
I believe that faith and obedience to God are both essential elements of the Christian life, and that obedience to God is not legalism.
That depends on who gets the glory for your obedience. Are "YOU" being obedient? Or is it Him in you that is the ONLY reason you do or are anything good at all? You can be obedient in your head and not saved, but you cannot be truly reborn and not seek to be more obedient daily. This is sanctification and guess who get's the glory for this? So while I do agree with your comment 100% I just wanted to add a bit more to it.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,131
3,689
113
#66
Saved Jewish believers in the Christ of Glory, their YHVH come in the flesh.
BTW, that statement demolishes the "lost 10 tribes" heresy.
There are no Jews in the body of Christ. At least part of the audience had not received the word and their souls were not saved.

1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
19,325
6,649
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62
#67
There are no Jews in the body of Christ. At least part of the audience had not received the word and their souls were not saved.

1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
No Jews in the body of Christ?
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,042
8,375
113
#68
There are no Jews in the body of Christ. At least part of the audience had not received the word and their souls were not saved.

1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Of course there are and were Jews in Body. All of the Apostles were Jews. There are Jewish converts today. You do not stop becoming a Jew when you become a believer. Quite the contrary.

Rom 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Furthermore, Jews can certainly become Christians. But gentiles cannot ever become Jews. And it is impossible for a Jew to become a gentile. Once born a Jew, you are a Jew forever.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,131
3,689
113
#70
Of course there are and were Jews in Body. All of the Apostles were Jews. There are Jewish converts today. You do not stop becoming a Jew when you become a believer. Quite the contrary.
Yes, your physical distinctions are done away with in Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,131
3,689
113
#71
Of course there are and were Jews in Body. All of the Apostles were Jews. There are Jewish converts today. You do not stop becoming a Jew when you become a believer. Quite the contrary.

Rom 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Furthermore, Jews can certainly become Christians. But gentiles cannot ever become Jews. And it is impossible for a Jew to become a gentile. Once born a Jew, you are a Jew forever.
Please post another passage where the term "twelve tribes" is a reference to Christian Jews. I'll wait.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
19,325
6,649
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62
#72
We are all one in Christ, no more distinctions. To address the twelve tribes as part of the body of Christ would be counterproductive to the body.
I see. Agree.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,131
3,689
113
#74
Rev. 7:1-8; 14:1-4; James 1:18
The Revelation passage is a reference to the 144,000 Jewish male virgins who will be servants during the tribulation. This is not the body of Christ.

Yes, the Jews were begotten by God through Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. These are not part of the body of Christ.

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,479
455
83
#75
The Revelation passage is a reference to the 144,000 Jewish male virgins who will be servants during the tribulation. This is not the body of Christ.

Yes, the Jews were begotten by God through Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. These are not part of the body of Christ.

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
The 144,000 are Jews (Rev. 7) They are the first-fruits for God and the Lamb. (Rev. 14:4). James says the Jewish servants of God and the Lord Jesus Christ (1:1) of which James was one, (1:2) are the first-fruits brought forth by the word of truth (1:18), which Paul says in Col. 1:5 is the gospel. Hence the 144,000 are the faithful Jewish contingent of the church.

Rev. 6 ends at the last day, the day of God's wrath. Chapter 7 is a new vision starting back at the founding of the church, where God marks as under His protection 144,000 Jews of that time who were believers in YHWH and who YHWH was giving to Jesus, and who would believe in the Son and His message when they heard, because they already believed in the Father and His message. They had been taught of God and learned from Him.
The great multitude are the Gentile and Jewish believers in Christ throughout history since Pentecost, who were added to the 144,000 first century Jewish believers. The great multitude is from every nation, tribe, people and language. That includes Jews.
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,479
455
83
#76
The Revelation passage is a reference to the 144,000 Jewish male virgins who will be servants during the tribulation. This is not the body of Christ.

Yes, the Jews were begotten by God through Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. These are not part of the body of Christ.

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
The 144,000 are Jews (Rev. 7) They are the first-fruits for God and the Lamb. (Rev. 14:4). James says the Jewish servants of God and the Lord Jesus Christ (1:1) of which James was one, (1:2) are the first-fruits brought forth by the word of truth (1:18), which Paul says in Col. 1:5 is the gospel. Hence the 144,000 are the faithful Jewish contingent of the church.

Rev. 6 ends at the last day, the day of God's wrath. Chapter 7 is a new vision starting back at the founding of the church, where God marks as under His protection 144,000 Jews of that time who were believers in YHWH and who YHWH was giving to Jesus, and who would believe in the Son and His message when they heard, because they already believed in the Father and His message. They had been taught of God and learned from Him.
The great multitude are the Gentile and Jewish believers in Christ throughout history since Pentecost, who were added to the 144,000 first century Jewish believers. The great multitude is from every nation, tribe, people and language. That includes Jews.

Chapter 8 takes up where Chapter 6 left off.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,131
3,689
113
#77
The 144,000 are Jews (Rev. 7) They are the first-fruits for God and the Lamb. (Rev. 14:4). James says the Jewish servants of God and the Lord Jesus Christ (1:1) of which James was one, (1:2) are the first-fruits brought forth by the word of truth (1:18), which Paul says in Col. 1:5 is the gospel. Hence the 144,000 are the faithful Jewish contingent of the church.

Rev. 6 ends at the last day, the day of God's wrath. Chapter 7 is a new vision starting back at the founding of the church, where God marks as under His protection 144,000 Jews of that time who were believers in YHWH and who YHWH was giving to Jesus, and who would believe in the Son and His message when they heard, because they already believed in the Father and His message. They had been taught of God and learned from Him.
The great multitude are the Gentile and Jewish believers in Christ throughout history since Pentecost, who were added to the 144,000 first century Jewish believers. The great multitude is from every nation, tribe, people and language. That includes Jews.
Do you believe the letter of James is written to the 144,000?
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
14,177
5,727
113
#78
It is written in scripture that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only.
“Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness,

and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.”
‭‭James‬ ‭1:21-22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: he is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.

But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:46-49‬ ‭KJV‬‬
 

timemeddler

Active member
Jul 13, 2023
449
201
43
#79
I've always taken this section of James to mean if you actually have faith there will be works of some sort, if not you're probably full of it. Kind of like operating a radio transmitter without actually producing RF, it doesn't work that way.
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,479
455
83
#80
Do you believe the letter of James is written to the 144,000?
Not only the 144,000. James wrote to all the Jews of his day. But the 144,000 Jews were the Yahweh-believing Jewish remnant alive world-wide in AD 33.
In Elijah's day, that was 3000. In James' day that was 144,000.