Do You Believe Unrepentant Sinners in Hell Can be Saved?

[tylerbones1313]

All that typing smoke, and you didn't actually answer the two questions you were supposedly responding to?

The questions were, "Do you believe that a being doesn't need a physical body to suffer torment, but they need a physical body to repent? How does that make sense of scripture?"

"Do you believe that a being doesn't need a physical body to suffer torment?" Luke 16:19-31 says you can suffer without one and of course with a physical body you can suffer.

but they need a physical body to repent? There is no scripture that directly says you have to have a physical body/no physical body to repent.

 

[tylerbones1313]

How do you know that is "the ONE THING that happened"? I had eggs for breakfast. Does that mean you can conclude logically that eggs are the only thing I had from breakfast? Scripture does not provide us with exhaustive accounts and lists.

What about Jesus going and preaching to the souls in hades who had been drowned in Noah's flood?

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19 in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, 20 because they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water.
1 Peter 4:4 With respect to this they are surprised when you do not join them in the same flood of debauchery, and they malign you; 5 but they will give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6 For this is why the gospel was preached even to those who are dead, that though judged in the flesh the way people are, they might live in the spirit the way God does.

What about Jesus going and preaching to the souls in hades who had been drowned in Noah's flood? You got me there so two things. Forgot about Him preaching and leading captivity captive. But they were not just from Noah's flood. These were ALL the Righteous dead in a place called Abraham's bosom (comfort, rest, peace, joy), a separate compartment from the burning side of Hell, fixed by a great gulf.

 

[Mem]

This short article explains the problem you are having relying on one concordance.
https://makepeacewithjesus.org/4-scholars

I only skimmed through this article and even if it is a given that the Greek doesn't speaking in the sense of eternity, you wrote elsewhere in reference to the Jewish view of eternity...

I can tell you that aiOnios is a greek word and did not mean eternal in the first century AD. The concept of eternity is a philosophical abstraction invented by philosophers meaning timelessness/outside of time. It is not something biblical authors had in mind. It has more recently been conflated with endless time. That is a concept the Jews had.

And indeed, Daniel wrote of it in Daniel 12:2
Berean Standard Bible
And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, but others to shame and everlasting contempt.
It is my view that all who fell asleep, both before and after Jesus' resurrection, go back to the dust and 'sleep' (and the parable Jesus spoke was an illustration to teach an 'even if...even then' reality. And scripture tells us that the dead are aware of nothing but that is until they are 'awakened.' I mean, how can we know whether Lazarus was aware of how many days had passed when Jesus called him forth? And even in the account of the transfiguration where Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus (perhaps they are examples of those absent from the body and present with the LORD?), how can we know whether they were aware of the disciples looking at them (they were speaking only with the LORD). It is my opinion that death and the Greek hell are synonymous with Sheol (but the lake of fire is another thing) and none of these can prevail against Him who calls forth the dead, small and great.

 

[PaulThomson]

What about Jesus going and preaching to the souls in hades who had been drowned in Noah's flood? You got me there so two things. Forgot about Him preaching and leading captivity captive. But they were not just from Noah's flood. These were ALL the Righteous dead in a place called Abraham's bosom (comfort, rest, peace, joy), a separate compartment from the burning side of Hell, fixed by a great gulf.

You are reading a lot extra into what those texts actually say. There is no indication that Jesus only went to believers who were drowned in Noah's flood. There is no indication that the post-resurrection Jesus could not cross the gulf between Abraham's bosom and the fire. Nor is there any indication that Jesus' sacrifice could not work retroactively by grace through faith for those who drowned as unbelievers.

 

[PaulThomson]

I only skimmed through this article and even if it is a given that the Greek doesn't speaking in the sense of eternity, you wrote elsewhere in reference to the Jewish view of eternity...

And indeed, Daniel wrote of it in Daniel 12:2
Berean Standard Bible
And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, but others to shame and everlasting contempt.
It is my view that all who fell asleep, both before and after Jesus' resurrection, go back to the dust and 'sleep' (and the parable Jesus spoke was an illustration to teach an 'even if...even then' reality. And scripture tells us that the dead are aware of nothing but that is until they are 'awakened.' I mean, how can we know whether Lazarus was aware of how many days had passed when Jesus called him forth? And even in the account of the transfiguration where Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus (perhaps they are examples of those absent from the body and present with the LORD?), how can we know whether they were aware of the disciples looking at them (they were speaking only with the LORD). It is my opinion that death and the Greek hell are synonymous with Sheol (but the lake of fire is another thing) and none of these can prevail against Him who calls forth the dead, small and great.

The hebrew word 'olam has a broad semantic range. Some dude/s translating it as everlasting does not make their translation what God meant or the prophet understood by the word.
And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to aeonous life, but others to shame and aeonous contempt. It could be referring to an everlasting age in both cases; or an everlasting age in one case, but not the other; or an everlasting age in neither case. You can't build a positive case for unending torment, nor for temporary torment from what this text actually says.

 

[TMS]

Odd, because He has an everlasting priesthood Heb. 7:24 and his sacrifice is a perpetual sacrifice Heb. 10;12. So, why would an everlasting priesthood and a perpetual sacrifice end?

The results and effects are everlasting...

Death comes to an end because sin will be no more.

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 20:14-15
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Sin will end and there will be no need for a preist and no need for a sacrifice.
The effects are eternal the meaning is eternal, the value is eternal but Jesus will take off the priestly robe and put on the royal, kingly garments when He comes. The cases will be decided

Rev 22:11-12
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. 12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

 

[tylerbones1313]

You are reading a lot extra into what those texts actually say. There is no indication that Jesus only went to believers who were drowned in Noah's flood. There is no indication that the post-resurrection Jesus could not cross the gulf between Abraham's bosom and the fire. Nor is there any indication that Jesus' sacrifice could not work retroactively by grace through faith for those who drowned as unbelievers.

This is what I wrote let me make it more clear:

What about Jesus going and preaching to the souls in hades who had been drowned in Noah's flood? You got me there so two things. Forgot about Him preaching and leading captivity captive. But they were not just from Noah's flood. These were ALL the Righteous dead in a place called Abraham's bosom (comfort, rest, peace, joy), a separate compartment from the burning side of Hell, fixed by a great gulf. In Hell there are two compartment as you will. 1. Abraham's bosom (Righteous dead from eternity past until Jesus' Resurrection.) 2. The Burning side of Hell (ALL the Wicked dead from eternity past until eternity future.) Leading the captivity captive is emptying Abraham's bosom. The preaching to the prisoners was; to Only those who died in the flood, fallen angels or ALL those Wicked from all eternity past until Christ's resurrection. Doesn't matter which view you hold the preaching was not an offer for salvation but rather was a proclamation of victory of death, hell and the grave.

Let me put in another way:
1 Pet. 3
18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1. Christ also hath once suffered for sins: This emphasizes Jesus' singular, perfect sacrifice to atone for the sins of humanity.
2. The just for the unjust": Highlights His righteousness in contrast to our unrighteousness. He bore the consequences we deserved.
3. That he might bring us to God": The purpose of Christ's sacrifice was to restore the broken relationship between humanity and God caused by sin.
4. Being put to death in the flesh": Refers to Jesus' physical crucifixion.
5. But quickened by the Spirit": Underlines His resurrection, demonstrating His victory over death and sin.

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Disobedient Spirits: This phrase likely refers to the people of Noah's time who ignored God's warnings and refused to repent of their wicked ways.
God's Patience: The verse highlights God's longsuffering, meaning His incredible patience and mercy even in the face of defiance and rebellion.
Noah's Days: This sets the context for the story of the Great Flood, a time of widespread corruption and sin.
The Ark: The ark becomes a symbol of God's provision of salvation for those who would heed His voice.
Eight Souls: Emphasizes the small number who trusted God and were saved from destruction through the ark.
Theological Significance:

1. Consequences of Disobedience: The verse underscores the reality of judgment for those who persist in rebellion against God.
2. God's Mercy and Patience: It highlights God's desire for people to turn to Him and receive salvation, even within a world steeped in wickedness.
3. Urgency of Response: The story of Noah and the few who were saved draws attention to the importance of responding to God's message while there is still time.
4. Symbol of Baptism: Some early Church Fathers connected the water of the flood to Christian baptism, emphasizing cleansing from sin and entering new life with Christ.

 

[tylerbones1313]

You are reading a lot extra into what those texts actually say. There is no indication that Jesus only went to believers who were drowned in Noah's flood. There is no indication that the post-resurrection Jesus could not cross the gulf between Abraham's bosom and the fire. Nor is there any indication that Jesus' sacrifice could not work retroactively by grace through faith for those who drowned as unbelievers.

There were no believers drowning in Noah's flood. He could cross between the two and did. The preaching was not an offer for salvation but rather was a proclamation of victory of death, hell and the grave.

 

[PaulThomson]

This is what I wrote let me make it more clear:

What about Jesus going and preaching to the souls in hades who had been drowned in Noah's flood? You got me there so two things. Forgot about Him preaching and leading captivity captive. But they were not just from Noah's flood. These were ALL the Righteous dead in a place called Abraham's bosom (comfort, rest, peace, joy), a separate compartment from the burning side of Hell, fixed by a great gulf. In Hell there are two compartment as you will. 1. Abraham's bosom (Righteous dead from eternity past until Jesus' Resurrection.) 2. The Burning side of Hell (ALL the Wicked dead from eternity past until eternity future.) Leading the captivity captive is emptying Abraham's bosom. The preaching to the prisoners was; to Only those who died in the flood, fallen angels or ALL those Wicked from all eternity past until Christ's resurrection. Doesn't matter which view you hold the preaching was not an offer for salvation but rather was a proclamation of victory of death, hell and the grave.

Let me put in another way:
1 Pet. 3
18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1. Christ also hath once suffered for sins: This emphasizes Jesus' singular, perfect sacrifice to atone for the sins of humanity.
2. The just for the unjust": Highlights His righteousness in contrast to our unrighteousness. He bore the consequences we deserved.
3. That he might bring us to God": The purpose of Christ's sacrifice was to restore the broken relationship between humanity and God caused by sin.
4. Being put to death in the flesh": Refers to Jesus' physical crucifixion.
5. But quickened by the Spirit": Underlines His resurrection, demonstrating His victory over death and sin.

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Disobedient Spirits: This phrase likely refers to the people of Noah's time who ignored God's warnings and refused to repent of their wicked ways.
God's Patience: The verse highlights God's longsuffering, meaning His incredible patience and mercy even in the face of defiance and rebellion.
Noah's Days: This sets the context for the story of the Great Flood, a time of widespread corruption and sin.
The Ark: The ark becomes a symbol of God's provision of salvation for those who would heed His voice.
Eight Souls: Emphasizes the small number who trusted God and were saved from destruction through the ark.
Theological Significance:

1. Consequences of Disobedience: The verse underscores the reality of judgment for those who persist in rebellion against God.
2. God's Mercy and Patience: It highlights God's desire for people to turn to Him and receive salvation, even within a world steeped in wickedness.
3. Urgency of Response: The story of Noah and the few who were saved draws attention to the importance of responding to God's message while there is still time.
4. Symbol of Baptism: Some early Church Fathers connected the water of the flood to Christian baptism, emphasizing cleansing from sin and entering new life with Christ.

What was the purpose of Christ preaching to those disobedient in Noah's time? 1 Peter Ch. 4

 

[PaulThomson]

There were no believers drowning in Noah's flood. He could cross between the two and did. The preaching was not an offer for salvation but rather was a proclamation of victory of death, hell and the grave.

To rub their noses in it, then?

 

[tylerbones1313]

To rub their noses in it, then?

God gave them over 120 yrs. to repent, how much time you need.

 

[tylerbones1313]

What was the purpose of Christ preaching to those disobedient in Noah's time? 1 Peter Ch. 4

read again the answer is there

 

[PaulThomson]

To rub their noses in it? To taunt them?

 

[Mem]

The hebrew word 'olam has a broad semantic range. Some dude/s translating it as everlasting does not make their translation what God meant or the prophet understood by the word.
And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to aeonous life, but others to shame and aeonous contempt. It could be referring to an everlasting age in both cases; or an everlasting age in one case, but not the other; or an everlasting age in neither case. You can't build a positive case for unending torment, nor for temporary torment from what this text actually says.

Whether temporary or perpetual, it is a resurrection to judgment. "It is appointed once for man to die, and then the judgment."

 

[Mem]

Whether temporary or perpetual, it is a resurrection to judgment. "It is appointed once for man to die, and then the judgment." So, death isn't exactly the judgment, but something that causes shame and contempt.

I accidently hit enter too soon, before I even began writing a reply, so I'll take the time to develop my thought on another post. Maybe at another time. Maybe this is one of those times I should say nothing.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

6And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Does a statement in the present tense make the claim a permanent unchanging reality? Abraham is describing how things are before the resurrection of the Lord. You CANNOT impose those conditions permanently based on that parable. I'm not the one making absolutist claims. You are. The burden of proof is on you to show where scripture says someone unrepentant in hell today can never ever repent and believe in Christ.

Sorry My friend

Yes, this was before. But now it is even worse. For Jesus went down and took paradise up with him.. The gulf still remains,

And yes it does make an unchanging reality. If there was hope. You already saw the man repented. And wanted God to send someone before his family died. And God said no.

There is no repentance after death, Only judgment

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Where did believers go when they died before Jesus rose from the dead? Where do they go when they die now that Jesus has risen from the dead?

PARADISE.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I can tell you that aiOnios is a greek word and did not mean eternal in the first century AD. The concept of eternity is a philosophical abstraction invented by philosophers meaning timelessness/outside of time. It is not something biblical authors had in mind. It has more recently been conflated with endless time. That is a concept the Jews had.

aiOn means a period of time whose duration is indeterminate while it is in progress, like the bronze age. aiOnios, as an adjective formed from aiOn, means age-long, or pertaining to a particular age.. It does not mean endless time. aidios means endless.

Did you not even bother to educate yourself with the link I posted in reply to you earlier?

Yes, and the Bible tells us when the age will end.

it wont.

hence eternal.

People who reject christ will not get out of Hell. They had their chance and chose to reject God, Thus God will reject them

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Every year there are nationwide exams that students can sit only once in that year and then comes the judgment - they are graded. It is logically foolish to claim that the statement "In any one year, it is given to students once to complete the exam and then comes their judgment" means that they will never have a chance to sit that exam in a subsequent year. You need to read scripture for what it says, not read superfluous ideas into verses and think you are interpreting the text as it was given by God.

So your going to try to use the wisdom of men to explain the wisdom of God?

Did Not God call that foolishness?

There are two judgments spoken of in the word

the Bema seat. Where BELIEVERS are judged and rewarded for their works and the fruit they bore while alive

the great white throne, This is where death and hades will be delivered, every there will be cause into outer darkness, seperated from god for all eternity.

there is no test. We all failed the test the moment we broke that first command of God and became sinner.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

What if the unrepentant in hell becomes repentant and turns to Christ as Saviour for mercy? Do you think God will be less accepting of their repentance than He was to yours? Is God a respecter of persons?

lol.. Again, NO ONE WHO EnTERS ETERNITY WILL DENY CHRIST!!!!