Doctrine of Unconditional Election
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Galatians 1:15. 1 Peter 2:19.
If it's not election (unconditional election) then it's automatically merited salvation, and since we know that isn't the case, then we come to the conclusion all of salvation is from God and by God. If even the faith isn't a gift from God, then you saved yourself by having faith. It's partly to your glory.
Would you hold that ALL people who go to hell go there only for the sin of unbelief? To hold to unlimited atonement, you must hold this position.
Any other position is a double jeopardy position. It also would state, that, by and large, Jesus' death, was at some level, a failure.
It also makes John 5:45, in which, Jesus states that the law, which many Jews had their hopes set on, is what would ultimately condemn them, not their unbelief (Jesus will not be the one condemning them) make no sense in an unlimited atonement position.
If it's not election (unconditional election) then it's automatically merited salvation, and since we know that isn't the case, then we come to the conclusion all of salvation is from God and by God. If even the faith isn't a gift from God, then you saved yourself by having faith. It's partly to your glory.
Would you hold that ALL people who go to hell go there only for the sin of unbelief? To hold to unlimited atonement, you must hold this position.
Any other position is a double jeopardy position. It also would state, that, by and large, Jesus' death, was at some level, a failure.
It also makes John 5:45, in which, Jesus states that the law, which many Jews had their hopes set on, is what would ultimately condemn them, not their unbelief (Jesus will not be the one condemning them) make no sense in an unlimited atonement position.
That's not at all my understanding. We are clothed in the righteousness of Christ. Having heard a sermon on this, when a large feast was held, the guests would be supplied garments to wear. This would be the case (as I understand it) in the parable of the Great Banquet.
That said, there is reference to stained garments in Revelation, but if the garments are our good works
#1- I don't feel overly confident in my good works. I'm told that my best works are as filthy rags. (and filthy has a specific meaning)
#2- You're then saved by works, and we're told it's not by works. There's a fairly popular preacher/teacher on youtube that will tell you that you ultimately enter heaven by works. I'd plainly state that's another gospel and we know what Paul says about other gospels and those who preach them.
That said, there is reference to stained garments in Revelation, but if the garments are our good works
#1- I don't feel overly confident in my good works. I'm told that my best works are as filthy rags. (and filthy has a specific meaning)
#2- You're then saved by works, and we're told it's not by works. There's a fairly popular preacher/teacher on youtube that will tell you that you ultimately enter heaven by works. I'd plainly state that's another gospel and we know what Paul says about other gospels and those who preach them.
That's a misunderstanding of what happened. It has never been by works (keeping of the law) except for Adam and Jesus. Old and New Covenant, it's always been by grace through faith, and we're told that their fault was "For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it"
Even for the wilderness generation, it was by faith, and most did not combine what they heard with faith.
Even for the wilderness generation, it was by faith, and most did not combine what they heard with faith.
No, it is not because you would have to know that you were going to be saved. God knew you did not. Saved by Grace through faith. God gave grace and gave man faith. None of which man in himself had.
However, man uses faith to achieve perversion and the will of the flesh. God said that Bable ( the people) are of one mind and purpose there is nothing to stop them. Elect speaks of the people of God contextually in the Old Testament that being said
Adam was not a Jew, Noah was not a jew and Abram was not a Jew. But Abraham is the name God gave to Abram to identify his descendants who were going to be the people of the Covenant. "The Elect" . They were the Elect even when they were judged and punished.
The context of hell has to be seen as Jesus said it is. Those who reject Him and do not place their faith In the Lord Jesus Christ will go to hell. The Elect of God the Jews even having the title of Elect will go to hell if they do not place their trust in the Lord.
it is a false narrative and false humility to suggest one putting their faith in Christ to receive salvation is in some way saying you have some part in saving yourself. You can reject so great a salvation and go to hell, or you can repent, surrender, and receive from God only what he PROVIDED for salvation, His Son. Doing this doesn't make IT work for salvation. The work has been done 2000 years ago at the Cross and eternal life is assured by the resurrection of The Lord. Because Christ lives we shall live also.
many Calvinist suggest if they don't see it this way( election) Christ has somehow wasted His precious Blood on those who will but be saved. That line of thinking is of the flesh and not Biblical. Let God be God. Some say that accepting Jesus as your Lord and Saviour is a work for salvation NO! it is a work OF salvation.
Just because God knows who going to hell doesn't mean as God HE can't place freedom to choose whom you will serve and relinquish HIS power or Will. God can allow the freedom of Choice and man still not be able to save himself.
Out of pride man has tried to hold God to man's idea of works for salvation over God's power to allow a man to choose or reject HIm.
saved by grace through faith is an absolute. God gave man the freedom to choose GOD gave it.
However, man uses faith to achieve perversion and the will of the flesh. God said that Bable ( the people) are of one mind and purpose there is nothing to stop them. Elect speaks of the people of God contextually in the Old Testament that being said
Adam was not a Jew, Noah was not a jew and Abram was not a Jew. But Abraham is the name God gave to Abram to identify his descendants who were going to be the people of the Covenant. "The Elect" . They were the Elect even when they were judged and punished.
The context of hell has to be seen as Jesus said it is. Those who reject Him and do not place their faith In the Lord Jesus Christ will go to hell. The Elect of God the Jews even having the title of Elect will go to hell if they do not place their trust in the Lord.
it is a false narrative and false humility to suggest one putting their faith in Christ to receive salvation is in some way saying you have some part in saving yourself. You can reject so great a salvation and go to hell, or you can repent, surrender, and receive from God only what he PROVIDED for salvation, His Son. Doing this doesn't make IT work for salvation. The work has been done 2000 years ago at the Cross and eternal life is assured by the resurrection of The Lord. Because Christ lives we shall live also.
many Calvinist suggest if they don't see it this way( election) Christ has somehow wasted His precious Blood on those who will but be saved. That line of thinking is of the flesh and not Biblical. Let God be God. Some say that accepting Jesus as your Lord and Saviour is a work for salvation NO! it is a work OF salvation.
Just because God knows who going to hell doesn't mean as God HE can't place freedom to choose whom you will serve and relinquish HIS power or Will. God can allow the freedom of Choice and man still not be able to save himself.
Out of pride man has tried to hold God to man's idea of works for salvation over God's power to allow a man to choose or reject HIm.
saved by grace through faith is an absolute. God gave man the freedom to choose GOD gave it.
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As far as I'm concerned, I've been saved from the instant He first thought of creating me.
When I first saw the unapproachable light, my first memory, before I was in the womb, I was saved.
When I first heard John 3:16, and saw a hand thrust a sword into my belly, I was saved.
When I was baptized with a tongue of fire, bursting out in tongues, I was saved.
When I was knocked off of my feet by the unapproachable light, aka Shekinah, I was saved.
When I died in the hospital, saw Yeshua in the New Jerusalem, and came back to life, I was saved.
I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever!
I died, He lives and dwells inside of me
I am finally assured of eternity
He never left my side, not even when I died
He was with me in the dark, right by my side
Faithful is HIS NAME! Hallelujah!
To answer your question, in my opinion, yes.
When I first saw the unapproachable light, my first memory, before I was in the womb, I was saved.
When I first heard John 3:16, and saw a hand thrust a sword into my belly, I was saved.
When I was baptized with a tongue of fire, bursting out in tongues, I was saved.
When I was knocked off of my feet by the unapproachable light, aka Shekinah, I was saved.
When I died in the hospital, saw Yeshua in the New Jerusalem, and came back to life, I was saved.
I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever!
I died, He lives and dwells inside of me
I am finally assured of eternity
He never left my side, not even when I died
He was with me in the dark, right by my side
Faithful is HIS NAME! Hallelujah!
To answer your question, in my opinion, yes.
I have Jesus yet I am to be obedient and that being obedient is done because I say I love Him there I obey Him. Security is not an appropriate term to use in the context to The Salvation of God through Christ.
security = the state of being free from danger or threat. We are not free from danger or threats. We have persecution, the danger of war, and threats to our faith. God is fully committed to the relationship he has with each one of us. Yet we can walk away. The security we have in God is not forced on us it is received freely as it can be rejected. I am saved today I will be saved tomorrow and I will be saved.
security = the state of being free from danger or threat. We are not free from danger or threats. We have persecution, the danger of war, and threats to our faith. God is fully committed to the relationship he has with each one of us. Yet we can walk away. The security we have in God is not forced on us it is received freely as it can be rejected. I am saved today I will be saved tomorrow and I will be saved.
FreeGrace2 said:
Would you please quote any verse that teaches that election is to salvation. By that, I mean the verse actually uses "saved" "salvation" in relation to election. Thanks.
Every verse I've found where election includes the purpose, it is always to service.
You can cease the condescension. I HAVE deeply studied what the Bible says about election and there are NO verses that link election to salvation. That is merely a calvinist talking point. It is totally unbiblical.
And I asked for any verse that teaches that election is to salvation. And you failed to provide any. Not even Acts 13:48 is about election, so why are you trying to read it into the verse? That's not exegesis by any stretch.
Check out these passages and then tell me what the purpose of election is stated to be:
Romans 9:15
1 Cor 1:27,28
1 Pet 1:1-2
John 15:16
I have many more. Let me know when you are ready.
The quote by Paul was from Malachi and was a reference to the Edomites, descendants of Esau.
That still doesn't say that election is to salvation.
Would you please quote any verse that teaches that election is to salvation. By that, I mean the verse actually uses "saved" "salvation" in relation to election. Thanks.
Every verse I've found where election includes the purpose, it is always to service.
You can cease the condescension. I HAVE deeply studied what the Bible says about election and there are NO verses that link election to salvation. That is merely a calvinist talking point. It is totally unbiblical.
And I asked for any verse that teaches that election is to salvation. And you failed to provide any. Not even Acts 13:48 is about election, so why are you trying to read it into the verse? That's not exegesis by any stretch.
Check out these passages and then tell me what the purpose of election is stated to be:
Romans 9:15
1 Cor 1:27,28
1 Pet 1:1-2
John 15:16
I have many more. Let me know when you are ready.
The quote by Paul was from Malachi and was a reference to the Edomites, descendants of Esau.
That still doesn't say that election is to salvation.
Check out these passages and then tell me what the purpose of election is stated to be:
Romans 9:15
1 Cor 1:27,28
1 Pet 1:1-2
John 15:16
Neither of the verses you have quoted says that election is to salvaton. I have many verses that clearly say that election is to service.
There are NONE that say election is to salvation.
Romans 9:15
1 Cor 1:27,28
1 Pet 1:1-2
John 15:16
Neither of the verses you have quoted says that election is to salvaton. I have many verses that clearly say that election is to service.
There are NONE that say election is to salvation.
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1 Cor 1:27-28
27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are,
This is a classic passage that shows clearly that election is to service.
The red words are who God has chosen/elected. The blue words are the purpose for which God chose them.
How about Paul, who the Calvinists love to point to:
Acts 9:15 - But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel.
Again, the red words is who God chose; Paul.
The blue words is the specific purpose for choosing Paul; to proclaim God's name to the Gentiles.
Election is to service.
Eph 1:4 - For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love
Again, red words is who God chose. And the "us" is defined in v.19 as "us who believe". iow, God chose believers. Psst: believers are already saved. The blue words refer to the purpose of God choosing believers: to be holy and blameless.
1 Peter 1:1-2
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia,
2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.
Again, the red words refer to who God has chosen. Green words show HOW God chooses/elects: according to His foreknowledge
Blue words specifies the purpose for which God has chosen these believers: service.
I could go on and one, but I hope you are seeing the pattern.
27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are,
This is a classic passage that shows clearly that election is to service.
The red words are who God has chosen/elected. The blue words are the purpose for which God chose them.
How about Paul, who the Calvinists love to point to:
Acts 9:15 - But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel.
Again, the red words is who God chose; Paul.
The blue words is the specific purpose for choosing Paul; to proclaim God's name to the Gentiles.
Election is to service.
Eph 1:4 - For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love
Again, red words is who God chose. And the "us" is defined in v.19 as "us who believe". iow, God chose believers. Psst: believers are already saved. The blue words refer to the purpose of God choosing believers: to be holy and blameless.
1 Peter 1:1-2
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia,
2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.
Again, the red words refer to who God has chosen. Green words show HOW God chooses/elects: according to His foreknowledge
Blue words specifies the purpose for which God has chosen these believers: service.
I could go on and one, but I hope you are seeing the pattern.
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FreeGrace2 said:
Would you please quote any verse that teaches that election is to salvation. By that, I mean the verse actually uses "saved" "salvation" in relation to election. Thanks.
Every verse I've found where election includes the purpose, it is always to service.
Yes, but how does this relate to my post about election being to service?
Would you please quote any verse that teaches that election is to salvation. By that, I mean the verse actually uses "saved" "salvation" in relation to election. Thanks.
Every verse I've found where election includes the purpose, it is always to service.
Yes, but how does this relate to my post about election being to service?
brightfame52 said:
When God chose His elect in Christ before the foundation, they werent even born to have done anything, so it was unconditional.
God chose the Israelites for service: to carry and protect His Word and Law to the Gentiles (nations). Service.
John 6:70.71
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)
This is a tough one for Calvinists. Very clearly Judas was ELECTED. What was his service? To fulfill Scripture by betraying Him.
When God chose His elect in Christ before the foundation, they werent even born to have done anything, so it was unconditional.
God chose the Israelites for service: to carry and protect His Word and Law to the Gentiles (nations). Service.
John 6:70.71
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)
This is a tough one for Calvinists. Very clearly Judas was ELECTED. What was his service? To fulfill Scripture by betraying Him.
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You just NAILED the REAL conclusion of Calvin's doctrine of election: being chosen to believe.
Yet, the Bible is clear: man believes from his heart: Rom 10:9,10. God is pleased to save those who believe. 1 Cor 1:21.
There are NO verses that show God electing/choosing/forcing/making anyone believe.
Titus 2:11 says the grace of God offers salvation to everyone. It's a choice. Everyone is accountable.
Yet, the Bible is clear: man believes from his heart: Rom 10:9,10. God is pleased to save those who believe. 1 Cor 1:21.
There are NO verses that show God electing/choosing/forcing/making anyone believe.
Titus 2:11 says the grace of God offers salvation to everyone. It's a choice. Everyone is accountable.
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I like Calvin...Hobbes is pretty cool, too! Lol
I was without faith or knowledge of the gospel. Then God did something with me. He didn't ask me or tell me or give me the option of choice to believe. He just did it. And then it took 21 years until my heart was finally united with His. That's just how it was...and is.
I was without faith or knowledge of the gospel. Then God did something with me. He didn't ask me or tell me or give me the option of choice to believe. He just did it. And then it took 21 years until my heart was finally united with His. That's just how it was...and is.
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