Does anyone else perceive something radical Occurring with the Writings of Paul

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JaumeJ said:
Does anyone else perceive something radical Occurring with the Writings of Paul=
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Yes, Jaume, the common interpretations of Paul's writings ignore his intent to a very great extent. His intent can be ascertained much more easily by referring to the Old Testament writings he quotes to prove his points. Furthermore, doing this also helps us to interpret the Old Testament as Paul would have (we can do this with how Jesus uses the OT as well).

I like your signature. I've always wondered why we don't just call him Joshua, personally =P
 
ChrisHill said:
Yes, Jaume, the common interpretations of Paul's writings ignore his intent to a very great extent. His intent can be ascertained much more easily by referring to the Old Testament writings he quotes to prove his points. Furthermore, doing this also helps us to interpret the Old Testament as Paul would have (we can do this with how Jesus uses the OT as well).

I like your signature. I've always wondered why we don't just call him Joshua, personally =P
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Nebulous enough to apply to everyone, including yourself. . .
 
Elin said:
Nebulous enough to apply to everyone, including yourself. . .
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You should apply to me =) But if you want me to be specific, I can tell you that every interpretation of Hebrews chapter 4 I have ever read ignores how he uses the verses he cites. How would you interpret Hebrews chapter 4, might I ask? In particular, what does this mean?

[Heb 4:9 NKJV] There remains therefore a rest for the people of God.
[Heb 4:10 NKJV] For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God [did] from His.
[Heb 4:11 NKJV] Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.
 
ChrisHill said:
Yes, Jaume, the common interpretations of Paul's writings ignore his intent to a very great extent. His intent can be ascertained much more easily by referring to the Old Testament writings .....................
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If you don't understand scripture, and clearly you don't, you shouldn't be talking about it.
Paul wrote what he did so that we would understand. He revealed the mystery. Not one time - ever - did he say "look, you need to go read the old testament so you'll know what I mean". To claim otherwise is to reject the work of the holy spirit.
Ludicrous!

Ephesians 3:3-5 "How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;"

Ephesians 3:8-10 "Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God"
 
phil112 said:
If you don't understand scripture, and clearly you don't, you shouldn't be talking about it.
Paul wrote what he did so that we would understand. He revealed the mystery. Not one time - ever - did he say "look, you need to go read the old testament so you'll know what I mean". To claim otherwise is to reject the work of the holy spirit.
Ludicrous!

Ephesians 3:3-5 "How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;"

Ephesians 3:8-10 "Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God"
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Why does Paul quote from the old testament so much if he didn't want you to read it?
 
ChrisHill said:
Elin said:
ChrisHill said:
Yes, Jaume, the common interpretations of Paul's writings ignore his intent to a very great extent.
His intent can be ascertained much more easily by referring to the Old Testament writings he quotes to prove his points.
Furthermore, doing this also helps us to interpret the Old Testament as Paul would have (we can do this with how Jesus uses the OT as well).

I like your signature. I've always wondered why we don't just call him Joshua, personally =P
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Nebulous enough to apply to everyone, including yourself. . .
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You should apply to me =) But if you want me to be specific, I can tell you that
every interpretation of Hebrews chapter 4 I have ever read ignores how he uses the verses he cites.
How would you interpret Hebrews chapter 4, might I ask?
In particular, what does this mean?

[Heb 4:9 NKJV] There remains therefore a rest for the people of God.
[Heb 4:10 NKJV] For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God [did] from His.
[Heb 4:11 NKJV] Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.
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The writer is saying that Israel's entering into Canaan under Joshua was a partial and temporary entering of rest given by God (Jos 21:44, 22:4). However, it was not the end of entering into rest given by God, as he states (v.1), for God continues the invitation in Ps 95:7-8.
God still gives rest. . .through faith in his Son, where the believer--like God who rested from his work of creation--also ceases his efforts to gain salvation by his own works and rests in the finished work of Christ on the cross, and which spiritual rest now will be completed in our final rest (Rev 14:13).

So which verses are you talking about that he quotes--v.3 and v.7?

v.3 - The writer warns the Hebrew Christians not to fall short of the promise of the gospel through lack of faith, as Israel had done. His argument, as he sometimes does, is from the opposite--as God has sworn that unbelievers shall not enter his rest (3:11, 4:3), so those who are not shut out by unbelief will enter in, if God invites them in (Ps 95:7-8).

v.7 - God set another day, today, the day of the divine grace of the gospel, to invite men again into his rest, which the writer warns the Hebrew Christians not to set their hearts against.
 
ChrisHill said:
Why does Paul quote from the old testament so much if he didn't want you to read it?
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And you illustrate my point nicely that you are too much of a tyro to try to teach.
Paul's credibility wasn't established in everyone's eyes in that day. He would cite the old testament to enforce his authority as one who had knowledge wisdom, and authority of the word.
His credibility is well established to us, and we need not "search the scriptures" to see if he is right. We know it beyond a shadow of a doubt as that was determined a long long time ago.
 
phil112 said:
And you illustrate my point nicely that you are too much of a tyro to try to teach.
Paul's credibility wasn't established in everyone's eyes in that day. He would cite the old testament to enforce his authority as one who had knowledge wisdom, and authority of the word.
His credibility is well established to us, and we need not "search the scriptures" to see if he is right. We know it beyond a shadow of a doubt as that was determined a long long time ago.
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He cited the Scriptures to help people Understand what they mean, not the other way around.


When he said study to show yourself approved, he wasn't talking about the very letter he wrote that suggestion in. Paul would not have referred to his own letters as Scripture.
 
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/115326-hebrews-4-9-real-sabbath-jesus.html


I suspect your interpretation is a variation of the position I was taught as an Armstrongite. Does eliwood mean anything to you? :D

ChrisHill said:
You should apply to me =) But if you want me to be specific, I can tell you that every interpretation of Hebrews chapter 4 I have ever read ignores how he uses the verses he cites. How would you interpret Hebrews chapter 4, might I ask? In particular, what does this mean?

[Heb 4:9 NKJV] There remains therefore a rest for the people of God.
[Heb 4:10 NKJV] For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God [did] from His.
[Heb 4:11 NKJV] Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.
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Elin said:
The writer is saying that Israel's entering into Canaan under Joshua was a partial and temporary entering of rest given by God (Jos 21:44, 22:4). However, it was not the end of entering into rest given by God, as he states (v.1), for God continues the invitation in Ps 95:7-8.
God still gives rest. . .through faith in his Son, where the believer--like God who rested from his work of creation--also ceases his efforts to gain salvation by his own works and rests in the finished work of Christ on the cross, and which spiritual rest now will be completed in our final rest (Rev 14:13).

So which verses are you talking about that he quotes--v.3 and v.7?

v.3 - The writer warns the Hebrew Christians not to fall short of the promise of the gospel through lack of faith, as Israel had done. His argument, as he sometimes does, is from the opposite--as God has sworn that unbelievers shall not enter his rest (3:11, 4:3), so those who are not shut out by unbelief will enter in, if God invites them in (Ps 95:7-8).

v.7 - God set another day, today, the day of the divine grace of the gospel, to invite men again into his rest, which the writer warns the Hebrew Christians not to set their hearts against.
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How is it that the exegesis you quoted fails to identify that Paul interpreted the Sabbath as representative of the rest, and also intrrpretted Isreals entry to tbe promised land as representing the same? That should be significant when it comes to interpreting not only Pauls letters but also the entire bible.

For instance, Numbers shows the failure of the Isrealites to enter the promise and their subsequent wandering. God asks himself how long he would bear with them? Jesus asks himself the same about the faithless generation.

They couldn't enter in until they built the faith to do so, and neither can we into Gods kingdom, the true rest.

We have been dying in the wilderness since Jesus made the promise available, just as Paul warned them would happen in Hebrews by use of the example.
 
ChrisHill said:
How is it that the exegesis you quoted fails to identify that
Paul interpreted the Sabbath as representative of the rest,
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Sorry. . .

and also interpretted Isreals entry to the promised land as representing the same?
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No, the writer uses "Sabbath-rest" to describe the kind of rest--a rest from all one's work, not just rest from one's employment--as God rested from all his work on the seventh day.
The rest given to them by Joshua was only partial, not a rest from all one's work, so God spoke of another day (Ps 95:7-8), a day of "salvation-rest" from all one's work to gain salvation, entered into by faith in his Son, where one completely rests in the finished work of Christ on the cross.

The OT Sabbath-rest from all work was a prefigure of the NT salvation-rest in Jesus Christ from all works to gain salvation.

Not only is he our Passover, Christ is likewise our NT Sabbath (v.9-11), in whom we completely rest from all work to gain/earn salvation.
 
Elin said:
in whom we completely rest from all work to gain/earn salvation.
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This cannot be, because there is no amount of work we could do to gain/earn salvation. Our rest comes after the work of entering God's Kingdom is complete.

[Acts 14:22 NKJV] strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting [them] to continue in the faith, and [saying], "We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God."
 
ChrisHill said:
Elin said:
No, the writer uses "Sabbath-rest" to describe the kind of rest--a rest from all one's work, not just rest from one's employment--as God rested from all his work on the seventh day.
The rest given to them by Joshua was only partial, not a rest from all one's work, so
God spoke of another day of rest--today (Ps 95:7-8),
a day of "salvation-rest" from all one's work to gain salvation, entered into by faith in his Son, where one completely rests in the finished work of Christ on the cross.

The OT Sabbath-rest from all work was a prefigure of the NT salvation-rest in Jesus Christ from all works to gain salvation.

Not only is he our Passover, Christ is likewise our NT Sabbath (v.9-11) of today, in whom we completely rest from all work to gain/earn salvation.
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This cannot be, because
there is no amount of work we could do to gain/earn salvation.
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Agreed. . .it cannot be any amount of work that will earn/gain salvation/righteousness/justification.

Our rest comes after the work of entering God's Kingdom is complete.
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Yes, our eternal rest is future.

[Acts 14:22 NKJV] strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting [them] to continue in the faith, and [saying],
"We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God."
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Yes, life is filled with tribulation.
 
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Elin said:
Agreed. . .it cannot be any amount of work that will earn/gain salvation/righteousness/justification.


Yes, our eternal rest is future.


Yes, life is filled with tribulation.
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He didn't say life is filled with tribulation. He said 'we must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.' It's hard work to overthrow the god of this world!
 
ChrisHill said:
He didn't say life is filled with tribulation. He said 'we must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.' It's hard work to overthrow the god of this world!
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If you're going to heaven it is. Which is what the scripture says.
Y'know, Chris, you really ought to think scripture thru a little more afore you attempt to correct folks.
I've only read a couple of your posts and you've been wrong twice.
At least you're consistent! :)
 
phil112 said:
If you're going to heaven it is. Which is what the scripture says.
Y'know, Chris, you really ought to think scripture thru a little more afore you attempt to correct folks.
I've only read a couple of your posts and you've been wrong twice.
At least you're consistent! :)
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Please quote what I've been wrong about. I would greatly appreciate it =)

Life in this world is filled with tribulation, no matter what race, religion, or age. Paul makes that point, too. 'The whole creation groans, awaiting the redemption...'

But that wasn't the point he was making in the verse I quoted. The point he was making is that we must, through many tribulations, enter the kingdom of God. Because if we don't, it will be left to the next generation...and the next...and the next...as it has for around 2,000 years now.

Eventually, we have to build the faith required to stop wandering and dying in the wilderness and enter the promise already.
 
In Matthew Jesus states:These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world...While it is true we should share in the sufferings of Christ.I believe Jesus made it clear that it was him who has overcome(overthrown) the god of this world.We couldn't possibly of our own accord. Another reason we need Jesus...I do like your thought Chris, for people to stop wandering around dying in the wilderness(beating themselves down thinking we are not good enough to accept salvation) and enter His promise... :)
 
Hey guys. I heard there's a new Bible transalation available that replaces the word "sabbath" with "sunday". That should make the book of Acts much more accurate, since the apostles rested on "sunday" 84 times in it. *wink wink*
 
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