Does church mean a lot to you?

[Poinsetta]

Great Subject: the answer is no.

 

[Blik]

Blik:
Thanks for the information on the resources.

Seems that you think there is not a gentile vs a Jewish actual way in real life Earth. New covenant (open to gentiles and Jews) is the "this era" valid way.

But remember that Jews have a veil, their rejection of Christ is what allowed us to enter in the picture (grafted branch). So what way are the veiled Jews walking in? They still think OT way is the way. And believe it or not (even though far from perfect), there are some true Israelites in the world in which there is not deception (a remnant minority).

Those are the ones that Jesus will reveal to and they will see the marks in the hands and the others and understand that the Messiah was indeed Jesus.

OT law was so that the community was fit to have the presence of Yahweh in their midst (the true source of blessing). After the Temple was destroyed, they were left without a key component of their ways.

They were veiled to the fact that Jesus Christ is the New Temple of God, and that the church is the Body of Christ so that we are living stones para of the New Temple where the Holy Spirit dwells. That does not make us that dwelling Spirit, and does not make us head (Jesus is).

So they have not caught up with the change, but it seems that those that continue faithfully to the Old Covenant (and to God), will have a chance to receive and learn the new way eventually.

Now that is my understanding of things. You seem to have gotten the story otherwise, would you mind elaborating to see the different angle and check with Scripture to see if things are so?

I think the key to our understanding how we are to look at these facts lies in the instructions to us not to judge. Paul tells us that God is true to His promises and will not go back on the promises to the Jew and scripture is always clear about what we must know. It is not clear about what God is doing about the veil over the eyes of the Jew. We have to blindly follow God's instructions: we are not to judge, we must respect and honor them.

I was so impressed with a book a Jewess wrote in response to accepting Christ. She said she was used to rituals that made her love of the Lord front and center in every day life and as a Christian she had none. Before there was a routine to follow when she got up in the morning, when she ate, when she went to bed for example, all of them centered in the Lord. As a Christian she lived with nothing to remind her God is in charge.

 

[Blik]

Today's church is a huge disappointment to me.

God explains Himself in the Torah, but in church I'm told they just don't read about God in the Torah. On my first day there I was told to sit in a corner, there was a group of friends who sat there. I am told Jews are all going to hell for not accepting Jesus and when I mentioned God's instructions to honor them they just shook their heads at me. They obediently prayed for me ill son, but later was surprised to learn he had been ill--their prayers had meant nothing to them. When a question came up about what water symbolized in scripture, my answer based on the OT was swept away as from a wrong source only to find the bible dictionary agreed with that explanation.

I go there because it is the only church near enough so I can go, but I hope God isn't as disappointed with them as I am.

 

[Locoponydirtman]

If you don't find yourself a participant in a body of believers, odds are you will find that you are no longer practicing.
Aside from being plugged into the work of the ministry the local congregation serves many purposes.
However the most alarming sign in the op is lack of love for the brethern. One of the fundamental manifestations of love for the Lord, is love for his followers.
If I found myself not loving my brothers and sisters in Christ I would be forced to examine my love for the Lord.

 

[Deade]

Interesting. I have not researched much about the concept "ritual". Can you recommend a resource(s) that can give a good overview of the different angles related to such concept?

In Gentile NT Christianity, we have many rituals (depending on how that is defined): baptism, confessing Jesus as Lord and Savior, Lord's supper, some even do washing of feet, like I mentioned before the reason why the disciples gathered on Sunday was so they would not be confused with Jews, and to celebrate the resurrection of Jesus.

The resurrection of Jesus marks a new milestone, nothing is the same after that. He was the Lord of Sabbath. I wonder if He gave instructions to the Apostles after resurrection concerning the Sabbath. If the Apostles did not keep it, maybe was because it was no longer necessary.

Well, well, there is a lot of assumption going on here. There are a couple of obscure references (in red) to Sunday meetings, but nothing to suggest this was regular practice. The resurrection was on a Saturday evening and not Sunday. Your reference (in blue) of the Apostles not keeping the Sabbath is just plain not true. Many scriptures point otherwise.

 

[Hamilton]

So how do you suggest that pastors, teachers, and missionaries be chosen by local churches?
Who should decide how the money is spent?
Should the members have any say in these maters?

Seems you just want to condemn.

I believe my post was very clear.
There is no pastor or board rule in the local church I am a member.
ALL members are equal and have a equal voice in the maters.
Of course, we always have much prayer, carefully examine the qualification each person selected to the office of pastor and teacher. It is often a very long process to make these very important decisions.
We always seek God leadership in the matters?




How are these matters decided in the local church you attend?
Are you even a member of a local church?

Thanks for the clarification SpoonJuly.

Acts 13:2 While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.

Acts 13:4 So, being sent out by the Holy Spirit, they went down to Seleucia, and from there they sailed to Cyprus.

Acts 16:6 And they went through the region of Phrygia and Galatia, having been forbidden by the Holy Spirit to speak the word in Asia.

1 Corinthians 12:10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.

Is God among your congregation? then prove it...

1 Corinthians 14:25 the secrets of his heart are disclosed, and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you.

You seem like a legit believer, I am not here to get in your case or polemicize, pray, fast, research.

Blessings.

 

[Hamilton]

Well, well, there is a lot of assumption going on here. There are a couple of obscure references (in red) to Sunday meetings, but nothing to suggest this was regular practice. The resurrection was on a Saturday evening and not Sunday. Your reference (in blue) of the Apostles not keeping the Sabbath is just plain not true. Many scriptures point otherwise.

John 20: 1 Now on the first day of the week Mary Magdalene came to the tomb early, while it was still dark, and saw that the stone had been taken away from the tomb. 2 So she ran and went to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one whom Jesus loved, and said to them, They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid him. 3 So Peter went out with the other disciple, and they were going toward the tomb. 4 Both of them were running together, but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the tomb first. 5 And stooping to look in, he saw the linen cloths lying there, but he did not go in. 6 Then Simon Peter came, following him, and went into the tomb. He saw the linen cloths lying there, 7and the face cloth, which had been on Jesus' head, not lying with the linen cloths but folded up in a place by itself. 8 Then the other disciple, who had reached the tomb first, also went in, and he saw and believed; 9 for as yet they did not understand the Scripture, that he must rise from the dead. 10 Then the disciples went back to their homes.

1 Co 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints: as I directed the churches of Galatia, so you also are to do. 2 On the first day of every week, each of you is to put something aside and store it up, as he may prosper, so that there will be no collecting when I come. 3And when I arrive, I will send those whom you accredit by letter to carry your gift to Jerusalem. 4 If it seems advisable that I should go also, they will accompany me.


Were the gentiles keeping the Sabbath? Was it one of the requirements for gentiles?

Acts 15:27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will tell you the same things by word of mouth. 28 For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements: 29 that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.

Kind regards

 

[SpoonJuly]

Thanks for the clarification SpoonJuly.

Acts 13:2 While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.

Acts 13:4 So, being sent out by the Holy Spirit, they went down to Seleucia, and from there they sailed to Cyprus.

Acts 16:6 And they went through the region of Phrygia and Galatia, having been forbidden by the Holy Spirit to speak the word in Asia.

1 Corinthians 12:10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.

Is God among your congregation? then prove it...

1 Corinthians 14:25 the secrets of his heart are disclosed, and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you.

You seem like a legit believer, I am not here to get in your case or polemicize, pray, fast, research.

Blessings.

So answer my questions to you.
How are pastors and teachers selected in your local church?
Who decides how the money is spent in you local church?
Are you a member/part of a local church?
Where is your proof that God is among your congregation?

 

[Poinsetta]

So answer my questions to you.
How are pastors and teachers selected in your local church?
Who decides how the money is spent in you local church?
Are you a member/part of a local church?
Where is your proof that God is among your congregation?

question no.3 is a killer

 

[SpoonJuly]

question no.3 is a killer

Not in the local church I am a member.
No money is spent with out a vote of the members, with each member having an equal voice and vote.

 

[Poinsetta]

Not in the local church I am a member.
No money is spent with out a vote of the members, with each member having an equal voice and vote.

mine is "all for the cause"

 

[SpoonJuly]

mine is "all for the cause"

can you please explain?

 

[Poinsetta]

can you please explain?

its all for the churches expenses, chairs, jails, they call one heart for the house....and you have to put in big money to help. i only pay my tithe i never give offering.

 

[SpoonJuly]

its all for the churches expenses, chairs, jails, they call one heart for the house....and you have to put in big money to help. i only pay my tithe i never give offering.

So you have no say in how the money is spent, some one else makes that decision.

 

[Poinsetta]

So you have no say in how the money is spent, some one else makes that decision.

not the tithes. only the 'heart for the house' 'chairs' and 'jail'

 

[SpoonJuly]

not the tithes. only the 'heart for the house' 'chairs' and 'jail'

I like the idea of each member having a say in how money is spent. ALL the money.

 

[Poinsetta]

I like the idea of each member having a say in how money is spent. ALL the money.

me too.

 

[SpoonJuly]

Thanks for the clarification SpoonJuly.

Acts 13:2 While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.

Acts 13:4 So, being sent out by the Holy Spirit, they went down to Seleucia, and from there they sailed to Cyprus.

Acts 16:6 And they went through the region of Phrygia and Galatia, having been forbidden by the Holy Spirit to speak the word in Asia.

1 Corinthians 12:10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.

Is God among your congregation? then prove it...

1 Corinthians 14:25 the secrets of his heart are disclosed, and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you.

You seem like a legit believer, I am not here to get in your case or polemicize, pray, fast, research.

Blessings.

So answer my questions to you.
How are pastors and teachers selected in your local church?
Who decides how the money is spent in you local church?
Are you a member/part of a local church?
Where is your proof that God is among your congregation?

So are you hiding now?
Always ready to condemn the way others do things but will not inform us how these things are done in your local church.

 

[Deade]

John 20: 1 Now on the first day of the week Mary Magdalene came to the tomb early, while it was still dark, and saw that the stone had been taken away from the tomb. 2 So she ran and went to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one whom Jesus loved, and said to them, They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid him. 3 So Peter went out with the other disciple, and they were going toward the tomb. 4 Both of them were running together, but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the tomb first. 5 And stooping to look in, he saw the linen cloths lying there, but he did not go in. 6 Then Simon Peter came, following him, and went into the tomb. He saw the linen cloths lying there, 7and the face cloth, which had been on Jesus' head, not lying with the linen cloths but folded up in a place by itself. 8 Then the other disciple, who had reached the tomb first, also went in, and he saw and believed; 9 for as yet they did not understand the Scripture, that he must rise from the dead. 10 Then the disciples went back to their homes.

1 Co 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints: as I directed the churches of Galatia, so you also are to do. 2 On the first day of every week, each of you is to put something aside and store it up, as he may prosper, so that there will be no collecting when I come. 3And when I arrive, I will send those whom you accredit by letter to carry your gift to Jerusalem. 4 If it seems advisable that I should go also, they will accompany me.


Were the gentiles keeping the Sabbath? Was it one of the requirements for gentiles?

Acts 15:27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will tell you the same things by word of mouth. 28 For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements: 29 that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.

Kind regards

John 20 give us the time of discovery, not the time of resurrection. Christ was buried just before sundown and was resurrected just before sundown. Three full days/nights later. Corinthians collecting money? What does that have to do with worship?

Jesus observing the Sabbath:
Mark 6:2 "And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, From whence hath this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands?"

Luke 4:16 "And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read."

The Apostles observing the Sabbath:
Acts 13:14 "But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down."

Acts 13:27 "For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him."

Acts 13:42 "And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath."

 

[Hamilton]

I think the key to our understanding how we are to look at these facts lies in the instructions to us not to judge. Paul tells us that God is true to His promises and will not go back on the promises to the Jew and scripture is always clear about what we must know. It is not clear about what God is doing about the veil over the eyes of the Jew. We have to blindly follow God's instructions: we are not to judge, we must respect and honor them.

I was so impressed with a book a Jewess wrote in response to accepting Christ. She said she was used to rituals that made her love of the Lord front and center in every day life and as a Christian she had none. Before there was a routine to follow when she got up in the morning, when she ate, when she went to bed for example, all of them centered in the Lord. As a Christian she lived with nothing to remind her God is in charge.

Hi Blik: the second paragraph brings to limelight some interesting concepts.

Does Christianity have rituals of other kind? Some charismatic authors describe a change in priestly duties from the temple (original) to our very body as the New Temple (body of Christ). They say that when we received the Holy Spirit it was as receiving Holy Fire (parallel the one received in OT), and that we are to keep that fire aflame (through devotions, study, loving the neighbor, worshiping in spirit and truth, etc.).

So we can say that now our Christian life has a lot of spiritual rituals: crucify our will not aligned with God's will, pray continuously for all the saints and the Church, and persons in position of authority, confess to God our trespasses, pardon trespasses that people do to us, hope for the best, have faith, intercede for the lost, use our God given spiritual gifts to expand the kingdom, etc.

If the priesthood of all believers is a valid concept, we do have to be involved in a whole bunch of spiritual processes that can be seen in a way as rituals.

Any thoughts?