The invisible church is the bride of Christ. We are important to Christ our husband. The Church is a representative glory of the unseen glory or God. What we do see the temporal is not the source of Christian faith (Holy place) . The visible church has many blessing to be shared with those within in as well as a place of drawing people to hear the gospel from without. Great place to be with like minded individuals. Terrible place when trying to find one that shares a belief but will not look past the boundaries that makes it different than the assembly next door. Try and work out differences but if not move on and hope you are moving for the right reasons.
Does church mean a lot to you?
- Thread starter umzza
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According to that ceremonial law as a shadow of the eternal. What are the requirements of God according to the law of Moses? This is where we should begin looking to the foundation. Rather than today the "Kosher" as oral tradition of men
Moses is typified as the law of God. Moses has no law in respect to his own person .This is not to be confused with the oral tradition of men who have added to the law of Moses. Taking away the whole understanding as to its purpose of the ceremonial law. Calling the new authority Kosher seeking the approval of the fathers as a law of men
Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
We should remember that the circumcision requirement Acts 15:1 is on this side of the first century reformation, as a false zeal. Its has never ben a requirement to be saved. But did point to the unseen substance the Holy Spirit of Christ. The "one" and only Holy Spirit of God.
The shadow found in ceremonial laws became sight or the substance. Circumcision represented "Christ our bloody husband". When Christ said it was finished the veil representing flesh was rent signaling the time of reformation had come . The Old testament saints who had the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of Grace were transferred for their temporal place the "Bosom of Abraham" as the Holy unseen place of God to the new heavenly Jerusalem as the city prepared as the bride of Christ, our husband.
They received the end of their faith from the beginning just as us today. We look back to that glory the renting of the veil .They looked forward. All of the ceremonial laws had the same connection the suffering before hand of our bloody husband and savor.To include the furniture, candles, the veil. the water containers, silver and gold as part of presenting the gospel beforehand
Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time (the time of reformation) the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.1 Peter 1 :9-11
Circumcision is a sign that pointed ahead to our suffering savoir and the glory that did appear... the opening of the graves as the beginning of the first resurrection had taken place.
Circumcision the temporal seen again is used as a shadow to represent the unseen eternal our bloody husband, Christ.
In Exous 4:24 -26 The Holy Spirit defines circumcision as a work of the gospel in respect to our bloody husband Christ. warned by the work of His gentile wife Zipporah . God is not served by human hands as a will . Neither Jew not gentile.
And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the Lord met him, and sought to kill him. Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said, Surely a "bloody husband" art thou to me.So he let him go: then she said, A bloody husband thou art, because of the circumcision.
Circumcision is a shadow of Christ our bloody husband.
The shadow found in ceremonial laws became sight or the substance. Circumcision represented "Christ our bloody husband". When Christ said it was finished the veil representing flesh was rent signaling the time of reformation had come . The Old testament saints who had the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of Grace were transferred for their temporal place the "Bosom of Abraham" as the Holy unseen place of God to the new heavenly Jerusalem as the city prepared as the bride of Christ, our husband.
They received the end of their faith from the beginning just as us today. We look back to that glory the renting of the veil .They looked forward. All of the ceremonial laws had the same connection the suffering before hand of our bloody husband and savor.To include the furniture, candles, the veil. the water containers, silver and gold as part of presenting the gospel beforehand
Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time (the time of reformation) the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.1 Peter 1 :9-11
Circumcision is a sign that pointed ahead to our suffering savoir and the glory that did appear... the opening of the graves as the beginning of the first resurrection had taken place.
Circumcision the temporal seen again is used as a shadow to represent the unseen eternal our bloody husband, Christ.
In Exous 4:24 -26 The Holy Spirit defines circumcision as a work of the gospel in respect to our bloody husband Christ. warned by the work of His gentile wife Zipporah . God is not served by human hands as a will . Neither Jew not gentile.
And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the Lord met him, and sought to kill him. Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said, Surely a "bloody husband" art thou to me.So he let him go: then she said, A bloody husband thou art, because of the circumcision.
Circumcision is a shadow of Christ our bloody husband.
What is the real church? Believers in Christ? Churches on earth is where the Church of Christ gather, fellowship, serve. Being totally honest, as I've mentioned on other threads, the earthy churches for me have lost their "flavor" but then again that could be my fault as much as theirs.
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I'm with you on this. I've attended many churches over the years and they don't feel like a good fit. I attended one that was later sold to make way for a super highway system while I was away on business for a year. Never did find where the new church went to. Or if they relocated at all. That was a great place. Church of the Nazarene. Very warn and inviting.
I wouldn't worry if you don't find a church. You have God's Holy Spirit and that makes you his church in a sense. You can also get together with other Christians and commune together in his name. You don't need that structured principle of church, pastor, sermonizing, to live the faith.
We found a Bible study group on a community message board at the local Christian bookstore. They even have a open circle in the back of the store with chairs situated in a circle, a huge table in the middle, and a few Bibles scattered atop it. Shoppers can go there and read at leisure. And as happens a lot when we're there, get together and discuss the faith, scripture, or whatever else pertaining to the kingdom.
It's from situations like that that study groups evolve.
I wouldn't worry if you don't find a church. You have God's Holy Spirit and that makes you his church in a sense. You can also get together with other Christians and commune together in his name. You don't need that structured principle of church, pastor, sermonizing, to live the faith.
We found a Bible study group on a community message board at the local Christian bookstore. They even have a open circle in the back of the store with chairs situated in a circle, a huge table in the middle, and a few Bibles scattered atop it. Shoppers can go there and read at leisure. And as happens a lot when we're there, get together and discuss the faith, scripture, or whatever else pertaining to the kingdom.
It's from situations like that that study groups evolve.
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I think the requirements for all, Jews and gentiles alike, was different after the Holy Spirit was given to all. The purpose of the rituals such as diet and circumcision was as a guide to law obedience, they weren't obedience in themselves. When the Holy Spirit came at Pentecost all that changed, now the rituals didn't guide to the law but the Holy Spirit did. Scripture makes a difference between such as fleshly circumcision and spiritual circumcision and tells us we are to be spiritually circumcised and if we need the fleshly kind then asks what use the Holy Spirit is to us.
John said of the Jews in Philadelphia that they claimed to be Jews and weren't, or they were circumcised in the flesh but not in the spirit.
Rev. 3: 9 I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you.
The Jews were using the rituals as law in themselves. But when we gentiles ditch the rituals often it isn't the rituals that are tossed but things we are told to do like the Sabbath. That is part of creation, it isn't a ritual. Or the feasts, they are celebrations of God's plan for our salvation. They aren't a ritual.
John said of the Jews in Philadelphia that they claimed to be Jews and weren't, or they were circumcised in the flesh but not in the spirit.
Rev. 3: 9 I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you.
The Jews were using the rituals as law in themselves. But when we gentiles ditch the rituals often it isn't the rituals that are tossed but things we are told to do like the Sabbath. That is part of creation, it isn't a ritual. Or the feasts, they are celebrations of God's plan for our salvation. They aren't a ritual.
I love my church very much. I enjoy volunteering, the fellowship, outreaches and everything that happens around. Worship time is my favorite. I’m praying that will God will lead you to a place of fellowship where your needs will be met in wonderful and unforeseen ways. Blessings to you, Umzza.
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Interesting. I have not researched much about the concept "ritual". Can you recommend a resource(s) that can give a good overview of the different angles related to such concept?
In Gentile NT Christianity, we have many rituals (depending on how that is defined): baptism, confessing Jesus as Lord and Savior, Lord's supper, some even do washing of feet, like I mentioned before the reason why the disciples gathered on Sunday was so they would not be confused with Jews, and to celebrate the resurrection of Jesus.
The resurrection of Jesus marks a new milestone, nothing is the same after that. He was the Lord of Sabbath. I wonder if He gave instructions to the Apostles after resurrection concerning the Sabbath. If the Apostles did not keep it, maybe was because it was no longer necessary.
In Gentile NT Christianity, we have many rituals (depending on how that is defined): baptism, confessing Jesus as Lord and Savior, Lord's supper, some even do washing of feet, like I mentioned before the reason why the disciples gathered on Sunday was so they would not be confused with Jews, and to celebrate the resurrection of Jesus.
The resurrection of Jesus marks a new milestone, nothing is the same after that. He was the Lord of Sabbath. I wonder if He gave instructions to the Apostles after resurrection concerning the Sabbath. If the Apostles did not keep it, maybe was because it was no longer necessary.
Copy that SpoonJuly. But from a more theological point of view, there is a difference between Church as in a building, with structured and organized manpower, board, by-laws, ministries, programs, etc.
As compared to a more free flowing get together "assembly of saved believers" gathered for worshipping, etc.
Many think that the expression of Church is contextual. In a rich or well off country the Building / structured system is ok. But in areas where prosperity is not the rule, maybe a more house / biz / under a tree type church gathering will suffice to start something bigger.
In the first centuries, the Early Church gathered in all kind of places: houses, catacombs, etc. It was much later that nice big church structures developed.
So that makes us wonder: can certain type of persons feel better in certain kind of structures? Or do all have to follow a strict pattern?
If someone is happy to have a service in a neutral place maybe led by a Chaplain, does that not count as "church congregation assistance"? how about the house church movement (say in China)?
So when you talk about Church and Jesus, what are you referring to? the building, systems, etc. or the people that make up the congregation?
As compared to a more free flowing get together "assembly of saved believers" gathered for worshipping, etc.
Many think that the expression of Church is contextual. In a rich or well off country the Building / structured system is ok. But in areas where prosperity is not the rule, maybe a more house / biz / under a tree type church gathering will suffice to start something bigger.
In the first centuries, the Early Church gathered in all kind of places: houses, catacombs, etc. It was much later that nice big church structures developed.
So that makes us wonder: can certain type of persons feel better in certain kind of structures? Or do all have to follow a strict pattern?
If someone is happy to have a service in a neutral place maybe led by a Chaplain, does that not count as "church congregation assistance"? how about the house church movement (say in China)?
So when you talk about Church and Jesus, what are you referring to? the building, systems, etc. or the people that make up the congregation?
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I found the study of the Torah like "Oh, THAT is how the world works". But the people God used to explain His way lived as much as 6,000 years ago so life was different then. I couldn't understand them. So I found three men who had spent years learning and use them to explain for me. Tom Bradford, John Klein and Adam Spears. Tom writes a commentary posted on torahclass.com. You could use your concordance to find a ritual then go to the commentary on that scripture. Tom spent eight years in Jerusalem studying, he is reliable scripture and history.
Actually, that there is a gentile way for God to be and a Jewish way of God is man's misinterpretation of God's message.
Actually, that there is a gentile way for God to be and a Jewish way of God is man's misinterpretation of God's message.
S
It is not about a building. It is always about the local people who make up the local church.
As an independent Landmark Baptist, each member is equal with all other members with equal voice and power.
This local church only answers to Jesus.
This local church owns and meets in a building because that is convenient for all members.
With 120 members and 80 -90 present in each meeting, owning a building is the most convenient and economical way for this local church.
This local church has a Pastor and teachers selected by the members.
The missionaries this local church support are selected by the members.
Every dollar spent by this local church is by vote of the members.
As an independent Landmark Baptist, each member is equal with all other members with equal voice and power.
This local church only answers to Jesus.
This local church owns and meets in a building because that is convenient for all members.
With 120 members and 80 -90 present in each meeting, owning a building is the most convenient and economical way for this local church.
This local church has a Pastor and teachers selected by the members.
The missionaries this local church support are selected by the members.
Every dollar spent by this local church is by vote of the members.
Excellent observation. There has been little discussion about this, but seems to be a very important topic.
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/openhse/pastor.html
In the early church, it seems that ministry was to an extent contingent on the situation and the person having the gift required to best deal with the responsibilities and roles fit for the case.
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/openhse/pastor.html
In the early church, it seems that ministry was to an extent contingent on the situation and the person having the gift required to best deal with the responsibilities and roles fit for the case.
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Blik:
Thanks for the information on the resources.
Seems that you think there is not a gentile vs a Jewish actual way in real life Earth. New covenant (open to gentiles and Jews) is the "this era" valid way.
But remember that Jews have a veil, their rejection of Christ is what allowed us to enter in the picture (grafted branch). So what way are the veiled Jews walking in? They still think OT way is the way. And believe it or not (even though far from perfect), there are some true Israelites in the world in which there is not deception (a remnant minority).
Those are the ones that Jesus will reveal to and they will see the marks in the hands and the others and understand that the Messiah was indeed Jesus.
OT law was so that the community was fit to have the presence of Yahweh in their midst (the true source of blessing). After the Temple was destroyed, they were left without a key component of their ways.
They were veiled to the fact that Jesus Christ is the New Temple of God, and that the church is the Body of Christ so that we are living stones para of the New Temple where the Holy Spirit dwells. That does not make us that dwelling Spirit, and does not make us head (Jesus is).
So they have not caught up with the change, but it seems that those that continue faithfully to the Old Covenant (and to God), will have a chance to receive and learn the new way eventually.
Now that is my understanding of things. You seem to have gotten the story otherwise, would you mind elaborating to see the different angle and check with Scripture to see if things are so?
Thanks for the information on the resources.
Seems that you think there is not a gentile vs a Jewish actual way in real life Earth. New covenant (open to gentiles and Jews) is the "this era" valid way.
But remember that Jews have a veil, their rejection of Christ is what allowed us to enter in the picture (grafted branch). So what way are the veiled Jews walking in? They still think OT way is the way. And believe it or not (even though far from perfect), there are some true Israelites in the world in which there is not deception (a remnant minority).
Those are the ones that Jesus will reveal to and they will see the marks in the hands and the others and understand that the Messiah was indeed Jesus.
OT law was so that the community was fit to have the presence of Yahweh in their midst (the true source of blessing). After the Temple was destroyed, they were left without a key component of their ways.
They were veiled to the fact that Jesus Christ is the New Temple of God, and that the church is the Body of Christ so that we are living stones para of the New Temple where the Holy Spirit dwells. That does not make us that dwelling Spirit, and does not make us head (Jesus is).
So they have not caught up with the change, but it seems that those that continue faithfully to the Old Covenant (and to God), will have a chance to receive and learn the new way eventually.
Now that is my understanding of things. You seem to have gotten the story otherwise, would you mind elaborating to see the different angle and check with Scripture to see if things are so?
Thanks for sharing.
No offense but I will point out some things that jump at me from your description for you to consider:
"Equal voice and power" sounds to me like a man driven system.
"Answers to Jesus": are you sure? or do they answer to the pastor, board of directors, and congregation votes?
How do you know the will of God for certain key issues? i.e. who gets appointed to what office?, what programs are suited for that particular local church?, who decides where to send missionaries in mission assignments?
And the following is key:
"This local church has a Pastor and teachers selected by the members." note that selected by members is not selected by God.
Same with the other items beneath. It looks to me this Church is not a church of Jesus but a church of its members.
kind regards.
No offense but I will point out some things that jump at me from your description for you to consider:
"Equal voice and power" sounds to me like a man driven system.
"Answers to Jesus": are you sure? or do they answer to the pastor, board of directors, and congregation votes?
How do you know the will of God for certain key issues? i.e. who gets appointed to what office?, what programs are suited for that particular local church?, who decides where to send missionaries in mission assignments?
And the following is key:
"This local church has a Pastor and teachers selected by the members." note that selected by members is not selected by God.
Same with the other items beneath. It looks to me this Church is not a church of Jesus but a church of its members.
kind regards.
That's sort of what I was speaking about. Now if every member attends church every Sunday, Wednesday then perhaps those pastors could oversee that large of a flock. But hey, even that would be a challenge. I guess I'm just one of those country girls who did grow up in a small church and I just cannot comprehend a mega church.
S
So how do you suggest that pastors, teachers, and missionaries be chosen by local churches?
Who should decide how the money is spent?
Should the members have any say in these maters?
Seems you just want to condemn.
I believe my post was very clear.
There is no pastor or board rule in the local church I am a member.
ALL members are equal and have a equal voice in the maters.
Of course, we always have much prayer, carefully examine the qualification each person selected to the office of pastor and teacher. It is often a very long process to make these very important decisions.
We always seek God leadership in the matters?
How are these matters decided in the local church you attend?
Are you even a member of a local church?
Who should decide how the money is spent?
Should the members have any say in these maters?
Seems you just want to condemn.
I believe my post was very clear.
There is no pastor or board rule in the local church I am a member.
ALL members are equal and have a equal voice in the maters.
Of course, we always have much prayer, carefully examine the qualification each person selected to the office of pastor and teacher. It is often a very long process to make these very important decisions.
We always seek God leadership in the matters?
How are these matters decided in the local church you attend?
Are you even a member of a local church?