DOES GOD CHOOSE, OR DOES MAN CHOOSE?

[Magenta]

That'd be silly
But He wept over Jerusalem. How passionate might He be about all those who are His, and what would befall us all?
i've faced death, and the heartbreaking aspect for me was thinking of how it would affect those who love me, you know?
Even knowing that in the end of things, we would be reunited.

Yes, He wept, but He was only said to have sweated blood on that ONE occasion. On that occasion, He prayed against His self will.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Oh, they're not just duped by calvinism... Haven't you noticed every belief system (except the real one) is growing by leaps & bounds?

Also, the one thing all these belief systems have in common is that its people in general will attack the true system.

Delusion, plain & simple.

Nutter log going to my burn pile.

Adios senor.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

not to negate free will - but i was thinking through the implications if what we call 'free will' is the complete autonomy it's sometimes described as. at some point that agency we describe i think necessarily challenges the omniscience and omnipotence of God, so the question seems natural to me, whether He knew what He was doing when He created me, or if i am able to 'surprise' Him. am i 'purposed' by a God whose purposes are impossible to thwart, or am i 'experimental' ?

there's all kinds of absurdity here. i do mean to draw attention to it - not necessarily to destroy the idea of human agency, but to refine it, because if we don't approach this subject in a way willing to. look at the implications to an absurd degree, i don't think we're going to understand it in any meaningful way. if we don't maintain reverence for Him, we're going to diverge from the truth.

I think we are close if not on the same page. I agree, free will does not negate the omniscience and omnipotence of God. It will never do that for the very reason. God knows what we will chose before we4 chose it. In fact, I will take it further, God knows, if he places his in a certain situation how we will react, and what we will do.

That to me is how we reconcile God is a loving God who wants a relationship. And gives man free will, will at the same time being sovereign, and mans free will will not negate Gods will. IE, God knows how people will act. So he puts people in place he KNOWS will serve his need. Or (as in the case of Jonah) he knows he can put situations in a persons life where they will CHOSE to follow his will.

Ask two people what led them to christ, You will most likely find different reasons, as God used different ways to convince them to follow him. It is because God KNOWS what it will take to get them to freely chose them.

He also knows that there are some people who will NEVER chose to recieve God no matter what he does. That is why there are many in the world who have never heard the gospel. Because God is not going to send his people in harms way when NO ONE will recieve them anyway. Yet his dieting and sovereignty is still in tact. Because he never forced anyone to do anything. (The HS still did his job of convicting them of sin righteousness and judgment, they just decided to reject the HS prompting. And do what God said they would do in romans 1. Yet they have no excuse

 

[eternally-gratefull]

why do you say creating us in His image necessarily gives us 'free will' ?
because it's an attribute of Him? that's cause and effect?
wouldn't that reasoning apply to any attribute of Him, then? why aren't we omnipotent? why aren't we omniscient? why aren't we perfectly good? holy? just? wise? why 'free will' and not some other attribute?

you said yourself that our creations aren't autonomous - why don't we create completely free agents, by necessity, if He does so and being made in His image automatically makes us completely free agents? why doesn't being made in His likeness make us automatically creators of things with complete autonomy? why no transitive property?

i think you made an arbitrary affirmation. a non-sequitur.

Why did God make us? To have a relationship with us? Or to rule over us, and use us a puppets doing his will. Is this not Satans lie about God to begin with?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

am i created with a purpose or not?

if i am created according to His purpose can i 'defeat' His purpose? can i by my autonomy cause Him to fail? to prevent Him from completing His own will for me. His free will trumps mine, right?

or am i essentially individually purposeless, one of uncountably many coin tosses, where only those that come up 'heads' are counted? when He made me, did He essentially go into the kitchen with a recipe in mind, or did He do what i was asking about a few posts earlier, toss a bunch of random things from the fridge & cabinets into the microwave, and only find out later whether i turned out edible or not?
does 'foreknowledge' mean He knew before the microwave timer dinged, because He's smart and good at probability math, and after He set the timer randomly He started doing the chemistry equations in His head, or does 'foreknowledge' mean He knew before He even went to the kitchen?


((not trying to be irreverent - trying to say things in a way we can understand and relate to))

So Adam was created to sin? And cause the fall of mankind and Gods creation? Hitler was created to slaughter all those people?

Yes, You were created for a purpose. To be loved by God to have him show you his infinite love and take care of you, as a parent takes care.of a child. Like he did with Adam and Eve in the garden.

They rejected his love, he did not force them to.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

we who look to the Son are "given" to the Son by the Father, John 6:39
so what we're asking here in this thread is if it's:

He gave the ones who give themselves​

or

the ones He gave, give themselves
​

?

This makes no sense?? He gave the ones who recieved his love, No one can give themselves to God. Because we are all judged by God. We can only be reconciled by God if God took the thing which separates us (penalty of sin) away.

God gets the glory,. Because he paid the debt, He showed true love, If he did not do that, we would never even get to chose to recieve him, we would all be doomed.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That'd be silly
But He wept over Jerusalem. How passionate might He be about all those who are His, and what would befall us all?
i've faced death, and the heartbreaking aspect for me was thinking of how it would affect those who love me, you know?
Even knowing that in the end of things, we would be reunited.

Yes, and when hs said how often he wanted to gather tyhem under his wings, He spoke not from his humanity, but from his deity, as the god (YHWH) of Isreal. Who from the time he led them out of Egypt wanted to take them under his wings and give them their hearts desire, but time and time again, they were not willing.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes, He wept, but He was only said to have sweated blood on that ONE occasion. On that occasion, He prayed against His self will.

He knew what was going to happen, He not only witnessed the cross many times before, but he also knew he would be separated from his father for the first time in eternity. We can not fathom what that would be like.

 

[Jimbone]

When God commands you to be saved, you obey! No choice at all. When God spoke to me, there was no resisting his will for my life, which was to believe and serve him.

But I was lied to in Arminian churches for years, even though what I was reading in my Bible confirmed my experience! Which was God saved me, through the preaching of the gospel!

God is totally in control and sovereign in salvation. And yes, we do obey, because he has commanded us to walk with him! But, he also gives us the power, through the Holy Spirit to obey God and be transformed. (Romans 12:2; 2 Cor. 3:18)

I agree with you so much and I'm sure to you, being stuck in time and space as we are, it seemed like you did choose to a degree, at least it did to me. The thing is now when I look back, and you can read my testimony to confirm this, when I hit my knees I wasn't even sure I believed all this "God stuff" anymore at all if I ever had anyway. I didn't hit my knees and call out to Jesus or God, I just cried out "I can't do this anymore", it was me realizing and getting to the place where I knew "my way" led to chaos and death. God saved me 100% without a doubt, I didn't make any choice at that moment or "do" anything, just lost all faith in myself, and let the old man die.

Another huge thing I have realized this whole "we choose" thing logically leads to, IMO, has to do with eternal security. Once we are saved are we always saved? I mean if I have the "freewill" to choose God do I have the choice to leave again? Before I saw it like God has ALL the power I had to say yes, you can choose to turn from God after salvation. I just couldn't think that you had freewill to come to God, but once you came He did away with that pesky choice thing and you were stuck no matter what. Now Jesus tells us once we are His no one can take us from His hand, but if I choose then that wasn't someone "taking" me right? It would be me taking one of His children from His hand no matter how you want to flip it, and He says "NO ONE". I honestly couldn't see how that choice could ever be made once He opens your eyes to truth, but the option had to be there right?

One of the things that hit me in this change of perspective I recently had is that I have held both perspectives while I was "really saved", so I know firsthand you can be saved and see it from either perspective. I hate the division it causes when we both believe and say so many of the exact same things, and are even truly brothers and sisters in Christ. Should we not try harder to find common ground and use the time we spend battling each other more productively for the glory of our King and His Kingdom? I do, and want to show the world something different, something that it can't offer without Jesus. Truth.

 

[Studyman]

Have any if you ever created something and let your creation decide for itself retroactively the purpose you had for creating it?

Like just tossed random ingredients into an oven for a random amount of time at a random temperature, while you watched to find out what in the world you were accidentally making?

What if it's God's Will that we make a choice between His Word's and the words of the serpent? What if God tells us His Will and we ignore it because it doesn't fit into our traditions we created.

Duet. 30:19 I (Jesus) call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I (Jesus) have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

We all have God's Word and we all have the serpent telling us we are OK to reject God's Word. Is it not God's Will that we are free to choose one or the other? Isn't the Gospel of Christ from Gen. to Malachi a series of examples written for us to show us the consequences of the choice we make?

Rom. 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

1 Cor. 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

So why do so many choose to reject God's Word's and create their own religion like the Mainstream Church of Christ's time and before did?

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

1 Peter 5:6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:
7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.

8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil,(Serpent) as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.

 

[posthuman]

Yes, He wept, but He was only said to have sweated blood on that ONE occasion. On that occasion, He prayed against His self will.

“My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death,”
He said to them. “Stay here and keep watch.”
(Mark 14:34)
​

not fear, but sorrow

 

[posthuman]

This makes no sense?? He gave the ones who recieved his love, No one can give themselves to God. Because we are all judged by God. We can only be reconciled by God if God took the thing which separates us (penalty of sin) away.

God gets the glory,. Because he paid the debt, He showed true love, If he did not do that, we would never even get to chose to recieve him, we would all be doomed.

no one can give themselves to God you said - so what exactly do we think we are 'choosing' to do?

at the big tent revivals what do they tell the crowd to come to the front and do?
"give your life to Jesus!" right? but who already owns us?

it's the same thing, 'He chose the ones who choose Him' vs. 'the ones He chose, choose Him'
chicken & egg, absolute human autonomy vs. absolute divine sovereignty. is there middle ground that preserves both? or does it have to be one of these poles?

 

[posthuman]

Why did God make us? To have a relationship with us? Or to rule over us, and use us a puppets doing his will. Is this not Satans lie about God to begin with?

one can argue that in a sense Satan's lie is that we aren't truly free unless we reject our Creator - that our autonomy must be proven by sin, else it doesn't exist

 

[posthuman]

So Adam was created to sin? And cause the fall of mankind and Gods creation? Hitler was created to slaughter all those people?

well, like you said here:

That to me is how we reconcile God is a loving God who wants a relationship. And gives man free will, will at the same time being sovereign, and mans free will will not negate Gods will. IE, God knows how people will act. So he puts people in place he KNOWS will serve his need. Or (as in the case of Jonah) he knows he can put situations in a persons life where they will CHOSE to follow his will.

did God know that they would sin, when He put the man & the woman and the tree in the garden - and the Serpent?

Jonah - did He know Jonah would reject and flee from His will to the point of death? IMO Jonah is a much stronger case for 'irresistible election' than free will! the man didn't choose to obey until he was dead, in the belly of a fish!

 

[Nehemiah6]

did God know that they would sin, when He put the man & the woman and the tree in the garden - and the Serpent?

That should be rather obvious since the Lamb of God was slain from BEFORE the foundation of the world. Which means that God knew that Adam and Eve would sin and that humanity would need a Savior. Had God created robots who could not possibly make the wrong choices, we would not be where we are and the Gospel would not have been necessary.

By the same token, men cannot hold God responsible for Adam's sin since Adam was warned ahead of time, and Eve was fully aware of the warning. Indeed, Adam and Eve had absolutely no good reason to do what they did, given the fact that the Garden of Eden was given to them with every kind of herb, fruit, and vegetable and all creatures were herbivores.

 

[posthuman]

Indeed, Adam and Eve had absolutely no good reason to do what they did, given the fact that the Garden of Eden was given to them with every kind of herb, fruit, and vegetable and all creatures were herbivores.

And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
(1 Timothy 2:14)
​

Adam was not deceived -- not being deceived, i think it's inescapable to conclude that he had a reason to do what he did. a wrong one, but he ate of the fruit with full knowledge of what he was doing. he wasn't a dummy, and like you point out, the Lamb was slain from before the foundation of the world. we're not living in God's "plan B" -- yet if we are to comprehend this, the right comprehension is one in which we don't accuse God of being the author of evil. amazing!!

 

[posthuman]

Had God created robots who could not possibly make the wrong choices, we would not be where we are and the Gospel would not have been necessary.

it's as though the God-man dying on the cross is the inescapable conclusion of human free agency. the price of our "free will" is the existence of evil and the blood of the Messiah

. . ?

 

[Magenta]

“My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death,”
He said to them. “Stay here and keep watch.”
(Mark 14:34)
​

not fear, but sorrow

Where did I say anything about fear?

Do you agree or disagree, that Jesus prayed against His self will?

 

[posthuman]

Ask two people what led them to christ, You will most likely find different reasons, as God used different ways to convince them to follow him. It is because God KNOWS what it will take to get them to freely chose them.

He also knows that there are some people who will NEVER chose to recieve God no matter what he does.

if He knows what it will take to make me freely choose Him and He freely chooses brings those circumstances about that will certainly cause me to do so -- who chose who?

& like you say, some will not choose Him, regardless of circumstance - if that were not so, then one could accuse Him of evil for not bringing about the circumstances that would necessarily constrain them to turn to Him and believe.

this goes back to the random food-preparation vs. following a recipe question i posed yesterday: He created both those who reject Him and those who embrace Him. did He not create our hearts and minds too? in John 8, he tells a group of pharisees that they cannot hear His words, and cannot believe because they do not belong to God. how did that come about if He is sovereign over all?


when you give someone keys to a car, you give them power to go "zero to dead in under ten seconds" ((as a friend likes to say)) - even faster in certain cars. we've all been given such keys -- and that does not and cannot make God evil. God is good, always good, perfectly good. so if He's not doing evil by giving us agency to destroy ourselves, even those who will certainly, willingly destroy themselves, in fact He's doing perfect good - what is He doing? is He proving something to us? and not only to us, but to the angels, who are watching us with great wonder? what is He proving?

 

[Studyman]

well, like you said here:



did God know that they would sin, when He put the man & the woman and the tree in the garden - and the Serpent?

Jonah - did He know Jonah would reject and flee from His will to the point of death? IMO Jonah is a much stronger case for 'irresistible election' than free will! the man didn't choose to obey until he was dead, in the belly of a fish!

But it seems you are missing a very important Biblical Fact about the Bible itself.

Rom. 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

1 Cor. 10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Rom. 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

The Old Testament was written for us. Eve chose the serpent's word over God's as an example for us. Jonah's life was written for our admonition. For us to learn by. Abraham was obedient to God as an example for us. David was allowed to do what he did to give the enemies of God a reason to blaspheme His Holy name which they do every time the use David as an excuse to reject the Word's of God.

The entire Bible carries one theme, those who Love God and trust Him enough to follow His instructions are called "Faithful". Those who call God their Lord, yet reject His instructions are cursed as it is written.

We all have God's Word, and we all have the serpent who uses parts of God's Word to deceive us into dishonoring God with rebellion.

Heb. 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

As Jesus said before He became a man:

Duet. 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I (Jesus) have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

Don't let the serpent trick you into disobedience as it did Eve.