DOES GOD CHOOSE, OR DOES MAN CHOOSE?

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DOES GOD CHOOSE PEOPLE FOR SALVATION?

  • YES, GOD CHOOSES PEOPLE FOR SALVATION

    Votes: 13 76.5%

  • NO, GOD DOES NOT CHOOSE PEOPLE FOR SALVATION; THEY CHOOSE THEMSELVES

    Votes: 4 23.5%

  • I REFUSE TO ANSWER BECAUSE IT WOULD EXPOSE MY god-idol

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Total voters
    17
shrume said:
To me, the simple, reasonable thing to conclude is that man can indeed thwart God's will (again, wrt salvation).
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if you hold this in the context of God intending to redeem an individual, and that individual having the capability to frustrate God's intention, then do you imply the converse - that an individual who 'elects' redemption forces God's hand to save that individual, to the exclusion of God's own intention, such that even presupposing God's intention is to redeem all, that intention is superfluous because it is wholly enacted or brought to nothing contingent on the will & intention of the individual?
 
posthuman said:
if you hold this in the context of God intending to redeem an individual, and that individual having the capability to frustrate God's intention, then do you imply the converse - that an individual who 'elects' redemption forces God's hand to save that individual, to the exclusion of God's own intention, such that even presupposing God's intention is to redeem all, that intention is superfluous because it is wholly enacted or brought to nothing contingent on the will & intention of the individual?
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God is not that complicated. God wants all humanity to be redeemed by grace, so there is no *forcing God s hand* in this matter. If all would obey the Gospel all would be saved. That is why Unconditional Election is totally false.
 
posthuman said:
if you hold this in the context of God intending to redeem an individual, and that individual having the capability to frustrate God's intention, then do you imply the converse - that an individual who 'elects' redemption forces God's hand to save that individual, to the exclusion of God's own intention, such that even presupposing God's intention is to redeem all, that intention is superfluous because it is wholly enacted or brought to nothing contingent on the will & intention of the individual?
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because it seems like Romans 9:16 may smack that in the face...
 
posthuman said:
if you hold this in the context of God intending to redeem an individual, and that individual having the capability to frustrate God's intention, then do you imply the converse - that an individual who 'elects' redemption forces God's hand to save that individual, to the exclusion of God's own intention, such that even presupposing God's intention is to redeem all, that intention is superfluous because it is wholly enacted or brought to nothing contingent on the will & intention of the individual?
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Wut?

I believe God through Christ has made salvation available to anyone who will choose to believe on Jesus Christ, and I believe it is God's will for all men to choose to believe so they can receive what God offers. He wants all men to be saved, He is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance (1 Tim 2:4; 2 Pet 3:9). He wants the wicked to turn from their evil ways so they might live (Eze 33:11).

When men reject Him, they thwart His will for them.
 
posthuman said:
because it seems like Romans 9:16 may smack that in the face...
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Only if it is taken out of context and misapplied. So let us go back to Exodus 33:18, 19 and see what is being quoted in Romans 9:15,16:

For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

And he (Moses) said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory. And he (the LORD) said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

Does this mean that God will withhold His grace from anyone who obeys the Gospel (Q) Not at all. It simply means that God cannot be gracious to those who seek to be justified by the works of the Law, but He will certainly be gracious to those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Rom 4:4,5,16):

Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness... Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all...

So the one who *willeth* and *runneth* is the one who seeks to be justified by his own good works -- the deeds of the Law. The one who desires to earn his salvation. But that is not what God wants, and that is not where grace is applied.
 
Simply put, if man is going to receive God's mercy, he's got to do it God's way. Man can't will it any other way. God's way is through the gospel of Jesus Christ.
 
hardsell said:
I see where you are going and do not totally disagree. Your road is rocky getting to the destination you are trying to teach others to reach. I would recommend making it clear that Jesus followed every aspect of God's Law, including keeping the feats. If you are pushing that Passover was a man made tradition and Jesus never followed it, then I cannot agree, since Passover was set up by God for them to remember their deliverance from Egypt.
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Passover is most certainly given to us by Jesus before He became a man. But Passover is all about Jesus, the Messiah. How can a person observe the Passover commandment and reject the Christ? You can’t. So the Jews had created their own Passover which pointed to a different Messiah, one that does not exist.

You see. So even though they may have claimed to follow this Feast, they had corrupted it so they weren’t really keeping it were they. Jesus, however, did observe this Feast as well as the rest of the Feasts He created before becoming a man.

I am not good at getting my point across sometimes. Do you understand the point I’m trying to make?
 
Studyman said:
Passover is most certainly given to us by Jesus before He became a man. But Passover is all about Jesus, the Messiah. How can a person observe the Passover commandment and reject the Christ? You can’t. So the Jews had created their own Passover which pointed to a different Messiah, one that does not exist.

You see. So even though they may have claimed to follow this Feast, they had corrupted it so they weren’t really keeping it were they. Jesus, however, did observe this Feast as well as the rest of the Feasts He created before becoming a man.

I am not good at getting my point across sometimes. Do you understand the point I’m trying to make?
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I am trying to lol. I am reading some of your other posts, if might be that my own antennae needs adjusting :cool:
 
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